Why do Christians and Messiancs disagree on so much?

[cyberlizard]

just as there are some messianics who discount the writings of paul as a heretic, it should be remember that amongst the protestant wing of the church there are and were those who did and do not accept james as inspired.

most people accept jesus' words as inspired, but they do not accept them as truth. Somehow they think that what he said about the Law lost its validity at his death.


Steve

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

just as there are some messianics who discount the writings of paul as a heretic, it should be remember that amongst the protestant wing of the church there are and were those who did and do not accept james as inspired.

most people accept jesus' words as inspired, but they do not accept them as truth. Somehow they think that what he said about the Law lost its validity at his death.


Steve

I do think that most Ultra Calvinists denounce James as uninspired......

 

[cyberlizard]

I do think that most Ultra Calvinists denounce James as uninspired......

you lost me there!!!


Anyway, even though it is only 7.30pm, I am logging off my base unit, taking the laptop upstairs and doing some reading and study... i may or may not be back on later today....

now then, which reformer was it who did not accept the validity or inspiration of the book of James, and why did he reject it?



Steve

 

[2 King]

This is very enlightening. But this would ruin a substantial portion of the NT (via Paul's Epistles.)

I have also heard before that Paul is a "False Apostle", matter of fact is, I was reading through a study Bible reflecting on 1:1 of one of his Epistles, one of the notes said Since Paul was not of the original 12 he was never refered to as a disciple but instead apostle, not to mention that it stated He was self-proclaimed.

But above all of that, I also remember reading how in one of the Gospels John and another disciple complained to Christ that a man (who was not a disciple) was casting out demons in His name. And Jesus said it was good.
So Paul wasn't a disciple and he wrote powerful letters and presented himself as a servant of Christ.

Honestly though, I don't see how he could be a heretic. If he was than the following verse wouldn't be true, "All Scripture is God-breathed"- 2 Timothy 3:16

 

[Saera]

The accusations against Paul are horrific. I have a friend who is Messianic, except I never ask him questions about his faith, rather, he will occasionaly tell me of his beliefs. Whether or not the following is true, I don't know. He stated that He believed that Jesus' brothers and sisters continued the bloodline of David down through the generations, and that the Messiah would come out of that very bloodline again.
I don't remember reading in revelations that Christ would come to earth trhough birth, so I don't believe that, and I don't think it matters either, since we are saved by faith in Christ Jesus.

Honestly though, I don't see how he could be a heretic. If he was than the following verse wouldn't be true, "All Scripture is God-breathed"- 2 Timothy 3:16

Paul contridicted only parts of the OT, so OT followers were very displeased with him, thus spreading a self-made heresy of him being a heretic.

 

[unkern]

There are both Messianics and there are Messianic Jews(Judaism).

Messianics only follow the Torah.

While In Messianic Judaism they will still follow Oral laws and traditions.

Paul not once contradicts the Tanakh (OT) the problems is that people read it and translate it wrong not according to Hebrew or the context but by english or mans understanding.

The instance where Paul in the book of Romans says "we are not under the law" is actually translated "we are not under the Penalty of the law" also when Paul talks in Col 2:14 about the written code being nailed to the execution pole he isnt talking about the Torah (law) he is talking about the Oral law.

However for those of you in Messianic Judaism that believe strongly in the Oral Torah I in no way judge you by this, some of the Oral laws can be smart, but they are not for all.

For those Christians on here, something you'll notice about Acts 15 and 21:17, is that Paul trys very hard to show that he obeys the law, in fact in the middle of trying to show that he obeys the law while he was in the temple fulfilling a nazarite vow he was taken captive, and that is what started that big adventure of his.

If however Paul did contradict one word in the Tanakh we would have to throw out all his writings because it would then be G-ds word vs. Pauls word

 

[2 King]

Paul not once contradicts the Tanakh (OT) the problems is that people read it and translate it wrong not according to Hebrew or the context but by english or mans understanding.

Good point.

However for those of you in Messianic Judaism that believe strongly in the Oral Torah I in no way judge you by this, some of the Oral laws can be smart, but they are not for all.

Now we're getting somewhere.

I read acts 15, this is true. The question whether Gentile believers should obey the Law of Moses in order to be saved was extremely critical at this point in Christianity's history, and could have potentially split the early church if not handled careffully. The controversy had intesified with the success of the new Gentile churches. The Judaizers in the Jerusalem church were led by converted pharisees (Acts 15:5) who preferred a legalistic religion to one based on faith alone. If the Judaizers had won, the Gentiles would have been required to be circumcised and, in effect, converted to Judaism. This would have confined Christianity to simply being another sect within Judaism. There is something of a "Pharisee" in each one of us. We may unwittingly mistake upholding tradition, structure, and leagal requirements for obeying God. Make sure the Gospel brings freedom and life, not rules and ceremonies, to those you are trying to reach.

Paul talks in Col 2:14 about the written code being nailed to the execution pole he isnt talking about the Torah (law) he is talking about the Oral law.

True very true! "He canceled the record of the charges against us and took it away by nailing it to the cross."- Colossians 2:14 NLT
The record that was canceled contained the legal demands of the OT law. The Law opposed us by its demands for payment for our sin. Although no one can be saved by merely keeping that record, the moral truths and principles in the OT still teach and guide today.
We can enjoy our new lives in Christ because we have joined Him in His death and resurrection. Our evill desires, our bondage to sin, and our love of sin died with Him. Now, joining Him in His resurrection life. we may have unbroken fellowship with God and freedom from sin. Our debt for sin has been paid in full; our sins are swept away and forgotten by God; and we can be clean and new.

 

[Fixation On God]

Traditional Christianity affirms that the Torah is the word of God, though some Christians deny that all of the laws of the Pentateuch apply directly to themselves as Christians. The New Testament suggests that Yeshua established a new covenant relationship between God and his people (Hebrews 8; Jeremiah 31:31–34) and this new covenant speaks of the Torah being written upon the heart. Various passages such as Matthew 5:17-19, Matthew 28:19-20, 1 John 3:4 and Romans 3:3, as well as various examples of Torah observance in the New Testament, are cited by Messianics in suggesting that the Torah was not and could not have been abolished.
Many Messianics believe that it is absurd to assume that any of the 613 Mitzvot would be abolished simply because certain commandments are or are not repeated or reaffirmed individually in the New Testament, proclaiming the belief that such was never the job of the Apostles in the first place, and that the Torah has always been immutable. Messianics sometimes challenge Christians by arguing that if they believe Jesus is the Messiah, then according to the Torah itself Yeshua could not have changed the Torah.
As with Orthodox Judaism, capital punishment and animal sacrifice are not practiced because there are strict Biblical conditions on how these are to be practiced, requiring a functioning Temple in Jerusalem with its Levite priesthood. When the power of capital punishment is available, often its exercise is only after exhausting loopholes in Torah which are used to set a suspect free. According to the Talmud, capital punishment in Jewish law always had to lean on merciful alternatives to execution and make every effort not to give the strictest punishment within the confines of the Torah: "A Sanhedrin which kills once in seven years is considered murderous. Rabbi Elazar ben Azariah said: once in seventy years. Rabbi Akiva and Rabbi Tarfon said: if we had been in the Sanhedrin, no one would have ever been killed." (Mishnah Makot 1:10).
Most Messianics believe that observance of the Torah brings about sanctification, not salvation, which was to be produced only by the Messiah.
Like so many other elements of Messianic Judaism, the issue of Torah observance varies widely across the movement. The following subsections attempt to explain the differing opinions about Torah observance within Messianic Judaism as a whole.
A number of subjects have become off-limits within the complicated world of Messianic Judaism and some find this intellectually dishonest and damaging to the movement

 

[Saera]

While In Messianic Judaism they will still follow Oral laws and traditions.

most Messianics do not consider the Oral Torah "divinely inspired". There are some (especially those who have come out of Protestant churches), who maintain a presumption of sola scriptura and have a fear of halakha. However, it is incorrect to assume that all Messianics share this fear of oral Torah.

There are those who look to the Talmud and rabbinical interpretations of Israel for guidance in a fuller expression of obedience to Torah. If Messianic Judaism is indeed a Judaism, it stands to reason that it shares community with all Jews in its acceptance of standards and interpretations. Messianics who honor halakhah point out that Deuteronomy 17 instructs not only obedience to Torah, but also to the Judges we go to for Torah interpretation, to "do everything they direct you to do. Act according to the law they teach you and the decisions they give you. Do not turn aside from what they tell you, to the right or to the left." Yeshua backs up the Torah teachers among the Pharisees in this authority in Matthew 23, "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you."

 

[RND]

The difference is Judaizerism.

The Bible depicts its denunciation. I still don't get why they don't understand that.

Maybe that because the Bible denounces hypocrisy which is what the Rabbinic Judaism had become. Nowhere does the Bible denounce keeping the law.

 

[Saera]

Nowhere does the Bible denounce keeping the law.

That is true.
The false idea of Jesus attempting to replace the Torah would contradict various statements in the Torah itself that such a covenant is non-negotiably perpetual, disqualifying him from Messiahship

 

[2 King]

Messianics who honor halakhah point out that Deuteronomy 17 instructs not only obedience to Torah, but also to the Judges we go to for Torah interpretation, to "do everything they direct you to do. Act according to the law they teach you and the decisions they give you. Do not turn aside from what they tell you, to the right or to the left." Yeshua backs up the Torah teachers among the Pharisees in this authority in Matthew 23, "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you."

That's something new for me.
Good point.

Do the Messianic Jews still keep Dietary Laws?

 

[unkern]

That's something new for me.
Good point.

Do the Messianic Jews still keep Dietary Laws?

Messianics still follow dietary law and festivals, etc.

Along side Duet 17 and matthew 23. We now have the spirit which teaches us.

 

[Catherineanne]

Roman Catholicism teaches that Catholics can earn ("merit") all the grace necessary for salvation, and that Moslems will also be saved, even though Islam denies the deity, death and resurrection of Yeshua.

When I read a post such as yours, and for the most part have insufficient information to know whether what you say is true or not, and then find the above comment, which is total twaddle, I have to conclude that you don't have the first idea what you are talking about, in any of what you say.

I may be wrong; this may be the only misinformation in a very erudite post. But somehow I doubt it.

 

[Catherineanne]

Do you really need to ask such a question... Messianics believe that salvation is by faithing in Yeshua the Messiah.

Obedience to Torah (amongst Torah observant messianics) are an outworking of that faith.

There are Messianics who think exactly like Christians that the Law was abolished and is therefore now irrelevant, just as there are Christians who observe aspects of the Law... for example seventh day baptists (not very large 50-75,000 in the world), but these people do still exist.

I think most Torah observant Messianics have struggles with Paul as the Torah itself says it will last until forever, and Jesus implied the authority of the Torah until heaven and earth pass away - so the question arising from this is why does Paul apparently disagree with Moses and Jesus and the other Apostles so much (or so it appears).

The real question isn't about how Messianics are saved, but how they live out a saved life.


Steve

p.s. Works don't save, but the saved do work!

This all seems perfectly reasonable to me. I see no reason for there to be disagreement between Messianics and other Christians. Unless, of course, someone is just spoiling for a fight .... ?

 

[Catherineanne]

The difference is Judaizerism.

Is that a word?

***

Edit:

I did a search, and I found two uses of this word. Both were in virulent anti-semitic trash. I won't insult anyone by quoting from their nonsense here.

So it is a word, and a very nasty one. In effect it appears to denote the strategies of Judaism to destroy Christianity, by whatever means it can find.

 

[PaladinValer]

Maybe that because the Bible denounces hypocrisy which is what the Rabbinic Judaism had become. Nowhere does the Bible denounce keeping the law.

Except that Jesus is our Eternal Sacrifice, is our High Priest, is our Temple Hierarch.

If a person were to choose to follow any of the ritual/holiness laws of the Torah, that person is saying "Jesus isn't enough."

Either He is those things or He failed. Judaizers still follow those laws because they have no saving faith in Christ.

Keeping the Jewish sabbath is for Jews. Kosher is for Jews.

I'm not a Jew. I respect Jews for keeping to their own religion, but Christians who truly believe Jesus to be what He is cannot in good consciousness contrive any doctrine in following those laws. It is absolutely and fundamentally against all orthodoxy.

 

[PaladinValer]

Is that a word?

It is a word. It is also considered by the vast majority of Christians to be heterodox at best, and was condemned in the 1st Ecumenical Council.

 

[PaladinValer]

I did a search, and I found two uses of this word. Both were in virulent anti-semitic trash.

So it is a word, and a very nasty one.

Probably because those people use the word in a way unlike it is used in theological speak.

In theological definition, to Judaize is to incorporate doctrines of Judaism into Christianity that are in conflict to the core soteriological aspect of Who Jesus Is.

It has nothing to do with Jews themselves or even Jewish belief in and of itself, but to Jewish belief when mixed with Christian belief.

It is therefore hardy anti-semitic. It can be abused, like many word, but the theological use is absolutely not hateful towards Jews, Judaism, or the Hebrew people.

 

[Catherineanne]

Except that Jesus is our Eternal Sacrifice, is our High Priest, is our Temple Hierarch.

If a person were to choose to follow any of the ritual/holiness laws of the Torah, that person is saying "Jesus isn't enough."

I am not so sure. If they choose to express their love for the Lord by following Torah, as part of following in his footsteps, then I do not feel that any of us is authorised to judge that as denigrating Christ's sacrifice.

Torah as an expression of love is no worse than a Christian fasting, or praying, or worshipping to express their love. None of these have to be about works.