Why Believers are not under the Old Covenant Law of Moses

[jaybird88]

Where does James make this comment about claiming to be a doer of the law? The Essenes were Jews.

post 40
Jesus and the 12 were Jews.

 

[Bob S]

James 4:11
Do not speak evil against one another, brothers. The one who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks evil against the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge.

The following explains what James was saying:
11 Brothers and sisters, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against a brother or sister or judges them speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. 12 There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor?

No where in either version does it tell us James was a doer of the law.

So, if James is telling you that you must keep Torah (doer of the law) and If you do not believe Jesus brought the law to an end then you are under the whole law and you must do everything in the law as required by God at Sinai. There are 613 commands in the Torah including wearing you Tzitzit on the four corners of your garment and wearing the Tefillin on your head and on your arm and don't forget to tell your barber not to cut your sideburns. Is doing all of that going to insure your salvation? Jesus did something beautiful in fulfilling the law for Israel. Why would anyone want to go back under the law that could only condemn?

ending the law is the same as undoing the law. the effects are no different.

i thought the way of Jesus was the way. but today mans theology says different.

Actually, it may be the way you have been taught that is different. Did you ever think just maybe others are correct and you are wrong?

 

[Bob S]

post 40
Jesus and the 12 were Jews.

That isn't even correct.

 

[jaybird88]

The following explains what James was saying:
11 Brothers and sisters, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against a brother or sister or judges them speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. 12 There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor?

No where in either version does it tell us James was a doer of the law.

So, if James is telling you that you must keep Torah (doer of the law) and If you do not believe Jesus brought the law to an end then you are under the whole law and you must do everything in the law as required by God at Sinai. There are 613 commands in the Torah including wearing you Tzitzit on the four corners of your garment and wearing the Tefillin on your head and on your arm and don't forget to tell your barber not to cut your sideburns. Is doing all of that going to insure your salvation? Jesus did something beautiful in fulfilling the law for Israel. Why would anyone want to go back under the law that could only condemn?

you asked where James says he was a doer of the law, i gave you the verse where he says the phrase. now if you want to try and spin this as James advocating do not do the law, thats your choice. you made it sound as if it was something James never said. Jesus taught something similar, do what the pharisees teach, but do not do what they do. that sounds like doing the law to me and it sounds like James following the work of his brother and not starting a new faith.
Essenes taught the same theology (John the baptist)
Ebionites taught the same theology, they claimed to follow the same path as the Nazarenes (Jesus, James/the 12) and all Nazarene works were destroyed by rome.
we have many historical accts that James used the phrase doer of the law and believed in keeping the law.

Actually, it may be the way you have been taught that is different. Did you ever think just maybe others are correct and you are wrong?

im wrong on many things. i have no shame in saying that. but following the example of Jesus seems pretty simple to me. to not do as Jesus does would be a deviation of that way.

That isn't even correct.

Jesus and the 12 were not Jews?

 

[fhansen]

Acts
The law is an unbearable yoke. (Acts 15:10)

Romans
The law reveals sin but cannot fix it. (Romans 3:20)

If the law worked then faith would be irrelevant. (Romans 4:14)

The law brings wrath upon those who follow it. (Romans 4:15)

The purpose of the law was to increase sin. (Romans 5:20)

Christians are not under the law. (Romans 6:14)

Christians have been delivered from the law. (Romans 7:1-6)

The law is good, perfect and holy but cannot help you be good, perfect or holy. (Romans 7:7-12)

The law which promises life only brings death through sin. (Romans 7:10)

The law makes you sinful beyond measure. (Romans 7:13)

The law is weak. (Romans 8:2-3)

1 Corinthians
The strength of sin is the law (1 Corinthians 15:56)

2 Corinthians
The law is a ministry of death. (2 Corinthians 3:7)

The law is a ministry of condemnation. (2 Corinthians 3:9)

The law has no glory at all in comparison with the New Covenant. (2 Corinthians 3:10)

The law is fading away. (2 Corinthians 3:11)

Anywhere the law is preached it produces a mind-hardening and a heart-hardening veil. (2 Corinthians 3:14-15)

Galatians
The law justifies nobody. (Galatians 2:16)

Christians are dead to the law. (Galatians 2:19)

The law frustrates grace. (Galatians 2:21)

To go back to the law after embracing faith is “stupid”. (Galatians 3:1)

The law curses all who practice it and fail to do it perfectly. (Galatians 3:10)

The law has nothing to do with faith. (Galatians 3:11-12)

The law was a curse that Christ redeemed us from. (Galatians 3:13)

The law functioned in God’s purpose as a temporary covenant from Moses till John the Baptist announced Christ. (Galatians 3:16 & 19, also see… Matthew 11:12-13, Luke 16:16)

If the law worked God would have used it to save us. (Galatians 3:21)

The law was our prison. (Galatians 3:23)

The law makes you a slave like Hagar. (Galatians 4:24)

Ephesians
Christ has abolished the law which was a wall of hostility (Ephesians 2:15)

Philippians
Paul considered everything the law gained him as “skybalon” which is Greek for “poop”. (Philippians 3:4-8)

1 Timothy
The law is only good if used in the right context. (1 Timothy 1:8) (see next verse for the context)

It was made for the unrighteous but not for the righteous. (1 Timothy 1:9-10)

Hebrews
The law is weak, useless and makes nothing perfect. (Hebrews 7:18-19)

God has found fault with it and created a better covenant, enacted on better promises. (Hebrews 8:7-8)

It is obsolete, growing old and ready to vanish. (Hebrews 8:13)

It is only a shadow of good things to come and will never make someone perfect. (Hebrews 10:1)

'The Law is holy, righteous, and good' Rom 7:12. Man wasn't created to sin, after all, while the giving of the Law reveals the fact that fallen man sins nonetheless. The Law basically defines righteousness for man, what a just or holy person should "look like". But merely giving the Law, merely telling us what we should look like, can't give us the power or character or virtue or integrity to actually live up to it in any authentic or meaningful way. So the Law served as a teacher, to reveal that man cannot live up to it, that he lacks whatever is necessary for him to do so. But, God's purpose has never been to suddenly ignore justice, to no longer care if man is righteous, to no longer care if we behave and live as we were simply created to behave and live. He not only forgives sin, but He wants us to 'go, and sin no more'.

What man needs, what he lacks, is communion with God, Himself; man needs God first of all. We don't need to obey and fulfill some laws in order to be worthy of right relationship with God, rather we must be in right relationship with God in order to be able to obey and fulfill the Law! So communion with God, He dwelling within us and our remaining in Him, is the key to holiness for man. From that point God can do a work in us, of putting His law in our minds and writing it on our hearts, of transforming us into his image, the image of love, which causes obedience and fulfills the Law by its nature.

This all begins with faith, in response to grace, whereupon man begins to authentically know the true living God, and enter relationship with Him. Man's state of justice depends on this.

 

[John Ashcraft]

The Law is the Torah. The Torah includes the ten commandments. When Jesus fulfilled the Law, he fulfilled all of it, and not just the parts that are convenient to an agenda.

Did Jesus fulfill the Day of Trumpet, Day of Atonement, or Feast of Tabernacles as the Second Coming? You say Jesus fulfilled (past tense) all of it so did He fulfill the Second Coming 2000 years ago. Has 400 prophecies of the Second Coming been fulfilled or are they still to be fulfilled?

 

[RickyD]

This supplanted the Law:

Matthew 22:36-40King James Version (KJV)
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Why is there not love of neighbor readily found among these pages? I see mostly contention.

 

[jaybird88]

This supplanted the Law:

Matthew 22:36-40King James Version (KJV)
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Why is there not love of neighbor readily found among these pages? I see mostly contention.

ricky D i love you brother. and just so you know when i was like 12 i had a hamster named ricky D.

 

[Vicomte13]

Acts
The law is an unbearable yoke. (Acts 15:10)

Romans
The law reveals sin but cannot fix it. (Romans 3:20)

If the law worked then faith would be irrelevant. (Romans 4:14)

The law brings wrath upon those who follow it. (Romans 4:15)

The purpose of the law was to increase sin. (Romans 5:20)

Christians are not under the law. (Romans 6:14)

Christians have been delivered from the law. (Romans 7:1-6)

The law is good, perfect and holy but cannot help you be good, perfect or holy. (Romans 7:7-12)

The law which promises life only brings death through sin. (Romans 7:10)

The law makes you sinful beyond measure. (Romans 7:13)

The law is weak. (Romans 8:2-3)

1 Corinthians
The strength of sin is the law (1 Corinthians 15:56)

2 Corinthians
The law is a ministry of death. (2 Corinthians 3:7)

The law is a ministry of condemnation. (2 Corinthians 3:9)

The law has no glory at all in comparison with the New Covenant. (2 Corinthians 3:10)

The law is fading away. (2 Corinthians 3:11)

Anywhere the law is preached it produces a mind-hardening and a heart-hardening veil. (2 Corinthians 3:14-15)

Galatians
The law justifies nobody. (Galatians 2:16)

Christians are dead to the law. (Galatians 2:19)

The law frustrates grace. (Galatians 2:21)

To go back to the law after embracing faith is “stupid”. (Galatians 3:1)

The law curses all who practice it and fail to do it perfectly. (Galatians 3:10)

The law has nothing to do with faith. (Galatians 3:11-12)

The law was a curse that Christ redeemed us from. (Galatians 3:13)

The law functioned in God’s purpose as a temporary covenant from Moses till John the Baptist announced Christ. (Galatians 3:16 & 19, also see… Matthew 11:12-13, Luke 16:16)

If the law worked God would have used it to save us. (Galatians 3:21)

The law was our prison. (Galatians 3:23)

The law makes you a slave like Hagar. (Galatians 4:24)

Ephesians
Christ has abolished the law which was a wall of hostility (Ephesians 2:15)

Philippians
Paul considered everything the law gained him as “skybalon” which is Greek for “poop”. (Philippians 3:4-8)

1 Timothy
The law is only good if used in the right context. (1 Timothy 1:8) (see next verse for the context)

It was made for the unrighteous but not for the righteous. (1 Timothy 1:9-10)

Hebrews
The law is weak, useless and makes nothing perfect. (Hebrews 7:18-19)

God has found fault with it and created a better covenant, enacted on better promises. (Hebrews 8:7-8)

It is obsolete, growing old and ready to vanish. (Hebrews 8:13)

It is only a shadow of good things to come and will never make someone perfect. (Hebrews 10:1)

All of this is true, and yet you have missed the mark. The reason we are not under the Law of Moses is because the Law of Moses itself very explicitly says so in black and white.

The Law of Moses is crystal clear from the outset, and repeatedly throughout, that it is a COVENANT, a contract between two specific parties: YHWH, on the one hand, and the people there in the desert with Moses, whom Moses led out of Egypt into the desert, on the other hand. The covenant extended to their lineal heirs by the flesh, IF they were circumcised.

That is to whom the covenant/Law of Moses applies - them and nobody else in the world before or since.

Part of the Law of Moses is that NOTHING can ever be added to it or subtracted from it. That MEANS that the limitation of exactly TO WHOM IT APPLIES cannot ever be changed.

So just on the text of the Mosaic Law itself, without any reference to Christianity, that Law never ever applied to anybody but the people standing there in the Sinai Desert with Moses, and their lineal flesh and blood descendants living in the land of Israel who, if they were male, were circumcised.

If they were lineal flesh and blood males who were not circumcised, whether living in or out of Israel, they were cut off from their people, cut off from the covenant and ceased to be under the covenant, the law - and ceased to have the promise of the law - which was not everlasting life - THAT appears nowhere in the Law of Moses. The Law of Moses promised a farm IN Israel for those who were Hebrews and kept it. It didn't promise anything about everlasting life or life after death. Nothing.

So while the Jews, by the time of Jesus, had greatly extended, by their traditions, what the law meant, and what it offered - when Jesus told them "Search the scriptures, for in them YOU THINK you have everlasting life", Jesus did NOT say "Search the scripture, for in them you have everlasting life."

Quite the opposite. Jesus said, very clearly, that "Not a penstroke nor an iota of the law shall change". The Law - the WRITTEN Torah - did not contain any reference to everlasting life. The Jews - Paul and Peter and James and John all included - THOUGHT it did and THOUGHT it meant that, and Jesus acknowledge that Jews THOUGHT that because of their tradition, but IN FACT the Law VERY CLEARLY AND EXPLICITLY says that NOTHING could EVER be added to it. Jesus reaffirmed that. So no, the Jews did NOT get life after death from the Law - that is not IN the Law, and the Jews could never add that to the law NO MATTER HOW SINCERELY THEY BELIEVED IT. That was not the deal.

In a similar vein, no matter how much the Jews believed that non-Jews had to come under the Law, non-Jews could not be brought under the Law, because the Law says on its face that it only applies to the Hebrews and their heirs in Israel. If you're not descended from the Hebrews, the law does not apply to you.

So THAT is why the Gentiles are not under the Law, and cannot be brought under the law no matter what.

It isn't because of anything that is said in the New Testament. It is because the Law Itself Says so on its face, and the law says that nothing can ever be added to it, ever. And therefore Gentiles being under it cannot be added to it without breaking the Law. That's why.

Gentiles were not freed from the Law by Jesus, because Gentiles were never under the law, and God made it impossible to bring them under the law, by making it impossible for the law to be changed in ANY WAY. Gentiles weren't under it to start, and could not be added to it. Moses and Jesus both made that clear. The afterlife and everlasting life, likewise, could never be added to the Law. The Jews THOUGHT it had been, but Jesus made it clear that they were wrong. NOTHING could be added to the Law. Everlasting life was not offered in the Mosaic covenant, and GOd never added that. The Jews tried to, through their traditions, and Paul believed it was part of it. But Paul was wrong about that.

Everlasting Life is ONLY found in the New Covenant, with Jesus. It is not part of the Mosaic Covenant, ever, and it can never be added.

Follow the whole Mosaic Covenant, and if you're a Hebrew, you get a farm in Israel. Nothing more.
To get everlasting life, you have to follow Jesus, and Jesus does not make you follow the Mosaic covenant.

That's what the Scripture actually SAYS.

 

[Vicomte13]

Jesus indeed fulfilled God's Law this is not a license for us to break it. If we break it we commit sin and if we continue in unrepentant sin we are not in a saved state before God (Hebrews 10:26-27). Whosoever practices sin has neither seen him or known him (1 John 3:6)

We are Gentiles. We break nothing if we ignore the Mosaic Law, because it was never, and is not, a law for us. God does have laws for us, and Jesus made those plain. We have to follow him. The Law of Moses is, was, and always shall be, utterly inapplicable to anybody but lineal descendents of the people at Sinai with Moses, who live in Israel. That's what it SAYS, and it can never be changed.

 

[harkpuff]

This argument I have heard for years and usually by someone who is trying to justify doing something they know in their hearts they should not be doing.

 

[bekkilyn]

Did Jesus fulfill the Day of Trumpet, Day of Atonement, or Feast of Tabernacles as the Second Coming? You say Jesus fulfilled (past tense) all of it so did He fulfill the Second Coming 2000 years ago. Has 400 prophecies of the Second Coming been fulfilled or are they still to be fulfilled?

The Second Coming is about prophecy, not fulfilling the law. The Torah is commonly called The Law, because it contains the various statutes ordinances, and commandments that the Israelites were expected to follow. Under the New Covenant, Christians are no longer under this law as Jesus fulfilled it's purpose when he died on the cross. It is the law that we are discussing here, not prophecy. Prophecy isn't something we can choose to "obey".

 

[LadyCrosstalk]

Especially clear is this:


2 Corinthians 3:7-8

7 Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses' face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit have even more glory?

To those who insist that the Old Covenant Law is broken up into several categories and only the "ceremonial law" was nailed to Yeshua's cross, and s we are required to keep the 7th day Sabbath, I encourage you to look again to the above Scripture... what was actually "carved in letters on stone"?

I agree that believers are no longer under its yoke--we are under Jesus' yoke. He said, "Take my yoke upon you...for my yoke is easy and my burden is light." (Matthew11:29-30) Jesus' Jewish hearers were used to the difficult yoke and heavy burden of 1st century Judaism. It must have been amazing for them to hear Him say this. And so it is both demanding in its requirement to love even our enemies, and yet, with our "Helper," the Holy Spirit, is not difficult.

On the other hand, the unbelieving world is under the Law and the Judgment of God because of it. All who are condemned for sin at the Last Judgment. They will be judged by how well they kept to the Law of God. For those who have few infractions, their punishment will be light. For those who have many infractions, it would be better for them if they had never been born.

 

[Vicomte13]

This argument I have heard for years and usually by someone who is trying to justify doing something they know in their hearts they should not be doing.

Which argument?

 

[Vicomte13]

Under the New Covenant, Christians are no longer under this law

Under the New Covenant JEWISH Christians are no longer under this law. Gentile Christians are not released from it, because they were never under it in the first place.

Of course, there IS moral law for Christians. Jesus gave it quite explicitly. And it is quite different from the Torah. Harder in key ways, simpler in many other ways. But different.

 

[Bob S]

you asked where James says he was a doer of the law, i gave you the verse where he says the phrase. now if you want to try and spin this as James advocating do not do the law, thats your choice.

Show me where James wrote that He was a doer of the law. And I didn't write that he didn't write doer of the law, i just gave you another version.

you made it sound as if it was something James never said.

I did?

Jesus and the 12 were not Jews?

No, Luke was a gentile.

 

[Aaron Rich]

There is so much confusion in the church. We all listen to our pastors and other lay people more than we study the ENTIRE Word of God. It's quite frustrating to me.

We seem to try and make Yeshua and God the Father and the Holy Spirit into completely separate beings. They are ONE!!! When Yeshua speaks, He's speaking on behalf of the Father. When the Spirit speaks He's speaking on behalf of the Son. They don't have different agendas or different expectations, they all have the same expectations. They are ONE! It's not hard to grasp this.

When Yeshua says "if you love me, keep my commandments," He's not telling you to follow a whole new way of life. It's the same way of life that He taught us to live from the beginning as outlined in the words of Moses. They weren't abolished!

It's interesting how we Christian's quote the words of Paul over the direct quotations of our own Master Yeshua. Yeshua told us that NOTHING will pass from the Torah until Heaven and Earth pass away. We're still here folks - not a hard concept.

When God/Yeshua refer to the Father/child relationship and the marriage relationship when referencing our relationship with Him, these aren't just cute phrases to read and move on from. He's telling you to learn from (quality and healthy) marriages and parent/child relationships. These relationships teach you more about your God than you can possibly grasp. Take a minute and wonder about it.

Yes, you have a different relationship with God's Torah once you accept his gift of Righteousness. But the relationship with His ways are still there. You cannot separate the Word from Yeshua - they are one and the same!

How about an example: If my wife asks me to clean the kitchen while she works late. I'm going to do it. I know precisely what she does to clean the kitchen because I've OBSERVED her doing so. Should I then take a shortcut and do as little as possible OR should I clean to her level of cleanliness to the BEST OF MY ABILITY. Will I ever get it to her standards? Of course not! But if I do as much as I can to the best of my ability, she will have a lot less to worry about when she gets home.

God asks us to follow His WAYS! These ways are defined in minute detail in the first 5 books of the Bible. Are we capable of following them perfectly? NO! And He doesn't ask us to. He asks us to do the best we can. Are you going to hell for falling short? No. Well...unless you do it WILLFULLY and then "there remains no sacrifice" to atone for your sins - Hebrews 10:26

Before you accept all the quotes from Paul as listed, PLEASE realize Paul is the ONLY Biblical author said to be hard to understand and HE IS MISUNDERSTOOD! In one sentence He's telling you the law is "abolished" and in the next He's saying it's holy and good. Take the Master's words first. Nothing will pass from the Torah.

You were gifted with Righteousness. He asks you to be Holy in response. Holy and Righteous are NOT synonymous. As it's said in Revelation the Bride prepares herself for her wedding day. If you understand a Jewish wedding you will understand that the Bride sets herself apart (holy) and Holy is defined in the first 5 books of the Torah.

 

[FatalHeart]

There's a significantly crucial and all encompassing verse in Hebrews I didn't see in the original comment: "For when the priesthood is changed, there must also be a change of law." Hebrews 7:16. A good half of Hebrews is explaining this, His new priesthood, His new covenant, His new promises.

 

[Theo Book]

Acts
The law is an unbearable yoke. (Acts 15:10)

Romans
The law reveals sin but cannot fix it. (Romans 3:20)

If the law worked then faith would be irrelevant. (Romans 4:14)

The law brings wrath upon those who follow it. (Romans 4:15)

The purpose of the law was to increase sin. (Romans 5:20)

The purpose of the law was to increase THE AWARENESS OF SIN.

There was already sin in the world, and it was wherever MAN was found; For "All have sinned..." is not just a slogan, it is a scriptural spiritual fact.

But there are two other FACTS which must be factored in;
1) Where there was no law, sin was not IMPUTED. Nothings is said about it not being COMMITTED. It was not IMPUTED because God had not made Men aware of the fact their deeds and thoughts were unrighteous, and all unrighteousness is sin. BUT, "There is a sin not unto death."


James 5:16-17 "If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. 17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death."

So when God gave His law on Sinai, Men were newly conscience of those activities which, though not imputed heretofore, became the basis for imputing "sin unto death" because of an awareness not previously activated through Education at the hand of God through laws.

2) As already correctly noted by the Author, the purpose of the law of Moses was to bring Israel to Christ.

"24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."(Gal 3:24-29)

Christians are not under the law. (Romans 6:14)

Christians have been delivered from the law. (Romans 7:1-6)

The law is good, perfect and holy but cannot help you be good, perfect or holy. (Romans 7:7-12)

The law which promises life only brings death through sin. (Romans 7:10)

The law makes you sinful beyond measure. (Romans 7:13)

AGAIN - THE LAW DID NOT MAKE MEN SINFULL - THEIR OWN DESIRES were unrighteous. The LAW made Men AWARE of the standards RIGHTEOUS _&_ UNRIGHTEOUS;

"Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful."(Romans 7:13)

The Law was designed for one purpose - to bring Israel (The Jews) to Christ. The first Christians were Jews. Paul addresses some of the problems the first Christians had in explaining to their second generation Christians (their children) why uncle Joseph doesn't come visit any more, and other changes brought into play because of changes in the covenant of Abraham, which was fulfilled in
Christ.

Great post in my humble opinion.

 

[BobRyan]

Acts
The law is an unbearable yoke. (Acts 15:10)

you "quoted you" then slapped a Bible text after it??