Why are there so many libs in a Christian forum?

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Texas Lynn

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Somebody's views are going to be forced on others, and Christians have as much right to have our views implemented as law as do atheists and other liberals

Excuse me, the statement appears to imply "liberals" and "Christians" are mutually exclusive, which, of course, they are not. I suspect, however, that you knew that.

Which positions might those be?[positions of the religious right contrary to Christian ethics]

Pretty much all of them IMO. The PRR is all about power; Christianity is all about ceding power and helping the powerless.

Forced Christianity is not Christianity at all but something else entirely.
 
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imind

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There are five non-negotiable issues. These five current issues concern actions that are intrinsically evil and must never be promoted by the law. Intrinsically evil actions are those that fundamentally conflict with the moral law and can never be deliberately performed under any circumstances. It is a serious sin to deliberately endorse or promote any of these actions, and no candidate who really wants to advance the common good will support any action contrary to the non-negotiable principles involved in these issues.
says who? by far, one of the silliest things i've read all weekend.
 
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ConservativeAtheist

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There are five non-negotiable issues. These five current issues concern actions that are intrinsically evil and must never be promoted by the law. Intrinsically evil actions are those that fundamentally conflict with the moral law and can never be deliberately performed under any circumstances. It is a serious sin to deliberately endorse or promote any of these actions, and no candidate who really wants to advance the common good will support any action contrary to the non-negotiable principles involved in these issues.
1. Abortion
The Church teaches that, regarding a law permitting abortions, it is "never licit to obey it, or to take part in a propaganda campaign in favor of such a law, or to vote for it" (EV 73). Abortion is the intentional and direct killing of an innocent human being, and therefore it is a form of homicide.
The unborn child is always an innocent party, and no law may permit the taking of his life. Even when a child is conceived through rape or incest, the fault is not the child’s, who should not suffer death for others’ sins.
2. Euthanasia
Often disguised by the name "mercy killing," euthanasia is also a form of homicide. No person has a right to take his own life, and no one has the right to take the life of any innocent person.
In euthanasia, the ill or elderly are killed, by action or omission, out of a misplaced sense of compassion, but true compassion cannot include intentionally doing something intrinsically evil to another person (cf. EV 73).
3. Embryonic Stem Cell Research
Human embryos are human beings. "Respect for the dignity of the human being excludes all experimental manipulation or exploitation of the human embryo" (CRF 4b).
Recent scientific advances show that often medical treatments that researchers hope to develop from experimentation on embryonic stem cells can be developed by using adult stem cells instead. Adult stem cells can be obtained without doing harm to the adults from whom they come. Thus there is no valid medical argument in favor of using embryonic stem cells. And even if there were benefits to be had from such experiments, they would not justify destroying innocent embryonic humans.
4. Human Cloning
"Attempts . . . for obtaining a human being without any connection with sexuality through ‘twin fission,’ cloning, or parthenogenesis are to be considered contrary to the moral law, since they are in opposition to the dignity both of human procreation and of the conjugal union" (RHL I:6).
Human cloning also involves abortion because the "rejected" or "unsuccessful" embryonic clones are destroyed, yet each clone is a human being.
5. Homosexual "Marriage"
True marriage is the union of one man and one woman. Legal recognition of any other union as "marriage" undermines true marriage, and legal recognition of homosexual unions actually does homosexual persons a disfavor by encouraging them to persist in what is an objectively immoral arrangement.
"When legislation in favor of the recognition of homosexual unions is proposed for the first time in a legislative assembly, the Catholic lawmaker has a moral duty to express his opposition clearly and publicly and to vote against it. To vote in favor of a law so harmful to the common good is gravely immoral" (UHP 10).

It seems to me that "libs" are opposed to all five of these. What I "cut and pasted" here is the five non-negotiables included in the voters guide for serious Catholics. But those that would like to read a generalized version for protestants, look here.
Good question, but many protestants have different views than fundys...and this is a whole christian forum, if only non christians were pro-abortion, pro-gay marriage etc, no laws would ever pass promoting those. Therefore many christians obviously feel different than you on these issues.
 
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ImmortalTechnique

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i'd say, though, the reall issue is that conservative politicians don't really stand up for what is mentioned in the OP anyways.

there is no national politician today supporting the abolition of abortion, for instance. they will talk about it in elections, but never actually do anything about it. lying to the religious right is their way of getting voters to support their anti-environment, anti-human rights agenda, which is incredibly far from anytthing resembling Christian
 
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Zoomer

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There are five non-negotiable issues. These five current issues concern actions that are intrinsically evil and must never be promoted by the law. Intrinsically evil actions are those that fundamentally conflict with the moral law and can never be deliberately performed under any circumstances. It is a serious sin to deliberately endorse or promote any of these actions, and no candidate who really wants to advance the common good will support any action contrary to the non-negotiable principles involved in these issues.

The point of the government is to protect the individual and their property, NOT to be the moral authority of the people. Those should be the only non-negotiables of government.

I may not agree with abortion but I don't think it's the government's job to dictate if it is legal or illegal. The government should remain neutral and the people should have the freedom to decide. Those who oppose should do so by spreading the understanding of moral law to the masses. Government cannot and should not stop abortion but the people can by changing hearts.

If-- because I believe in freedom from government,-- I am seen as a "lib Christian", so be it. I'd rather be a free-thinking Christian, than one who is judgemental and governemnt dependent.
 
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The_Horses_Boy

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None of these 5 issues is mentioned in the Bible, so what is your authority to consider them "non-negotiable"?

To say that none of these issues are mentioned in the Bible is like saying that pre-marital sex is not mentioned. Like the issue of pre-marital sex they are mentioned, just as direct as some of us might like.

Gen. 19: 1-29
Judges 19-21
Deutronomy 23:17-18
I Corinthians 6:9
I Timothy 1:10
Leviticus 18:22
Lev. 20:13
Gen 38:1-11
Romans 1:26-27

The Bible is very clear, even to those with an objective mind, but it might be unclear to those who don't want to beleive what it says.
 
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The_Horses_Boy

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The point of the government is to protect the individual and their property, NOT to be the moral authority of the people. Those should be the only non-negotiables of government.

I may not agree with abortion but I don't think it's the government's job to dictate if it is legal or illegal. The government should remain neutral and the people should have the freedom to decide. Those who oppose should do so by spreading the understanding of moral law to the masses. Government cannot and should not stop abortion but the people can by changing hearts.

If-- because I believe in freedom from government,-- I am seen as a "lib Christian", so be it. I'd rather be a free-thinking Christian, than one who is judgemental and governemnt dependent.

Either we simply disagree on what abortion is, or you would be of the mind that the government should not outlaw murder.
 
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PacificPandeist

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Christianity has an inherently liberal doctrine.... I just don't see the "real" Jesus pushing for a lower corporate dividend tax.... I don't see the "real" Jesus dropping the ball on poverty, homelessness, and hunger, so he can lead a charge against gays getting married....

//// Pacific PanDeist
 
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chalice_thunder

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Such as???
How about let's start with a couple that always hang up the war-mongers:

Turn the other cheek & Love your enemy.

Anyone else want to jump in and quote some good liberal values that Jesus has taught us?

:wave:
 
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The_Horses_Boy

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How about let's start with a couple that always hang up the war-mongers:

Turn the other cheek & Love your enemy.

Anyone else want to jump in and quote some good liberal values that Jesus has taught us?

:wave:

To say such a thing you'd have to be filled with as much bias as Adolf Hitler. To turn the other cheek and love thy enemy is not a liberal ideal, sorry to tell you. It crosses both lines.

But that's right, Jesus supported alot of liberal ideas, like seperation of church and state - clearly, the most important things to him were his liberal views :scratch:

Christianity has an inherently liberal doctrine.... I just don't see the "real" Jesus pushing for a lower corporate dividend tax.... I don't see the "real" Jesus dropping the ball on poverty, homelessness, and hunger, so he can lead a charge against gays getting married....

//// Pacific PanDeist

I don't see the real Jesus calling for Christians to live and let live, or for seperation of church and state.
 
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The_Horses_Boy

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There are hundreds of sources of this online. http://www.jesusisaliberal.org/
http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1019-24.htm
etc.

Of course, everyone's definition of "liberal" is different, so it's debateable.

I just want to respond to the second link, and I quote: "The primary issues of Christian Liberalism were birthed when Jesus spoke the profoundly prophetic words found in Matthew 25: 31-46. These scriptures reveal God’s heart for the poor, the sick and other neglected people through out history. Christians should read this text and judge for themselves which of the two groups mentioned there more accurately reflect the political parties of today. His Liberalism lives on today and the issues have not changed much."

Does anyone else think that this is foolish? Does anyone really beleive that Jesus would support forced charity, and not allowing that charity to share the gospel? The liberal way of dealing with the issues of the poor defies Christianity.
 
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PacificPandeist

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To say such a thing you'd have to be filled with as much bias as Adolf Hitler. To turn the other cheek and love thy enemy is not a liberal ideal, sorry to tell you. It crosses both lines.

But that's right, Jesus supported alot of liberal ideas, like seperation of church and state - clearly, the most important things to him were his liberal views :scratch:



I don't see the real Jesus calling for Christians to live and let live, or for seperation of church and state.
That's sad, then, for you need a re-introduction to Jesus, the one who said "render unto Caesar that which is Caesers" at a time when the Gods of the Romans were the "state" religion, and who said "turn the other cheek" - how is that distinguishable from "live and let live"?

//// Pacific PanDeist
 
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noparty

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I just want to respond to the second link, and I quote: "The primary issues of Christian Liberalism were birthed when Jesus spoke the profoundly prophetic words found in Matthew 25: 31-46. These scriptures reveal God’s heart for the poor, the sick and other neglected people through out history. Christians should read this text and judge for themselves which of the two groups mentioned there more accurately reflect the political parties of today. His Liberalism lives on today and the issues have not changed much."

Does anyone else think that this is foolish? Does anyone really beleive that Jesus would support forced charity, and not allowing that charity to share the gospel? The liberal way of dealing with the issues of the poor defies Christianity.

He tells Christians to pay taxes. Of all the possible uses for taxes, the only one I can think of that Jesus might support would be taking care of the poor and sick. What liberals are preventing you from sharing the gospel?

You might want to rethink your definition of "liberal".
 
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The Lone Gunmen

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How about let's start with a couple that always hang up the war-mongers:

Turn the other cheek & Love your enemy.

Anyone else want to jump in and quote some good liberal values that Jesus has taught us?

:wave:

So what was the whole flogging his enemies thing again?

Beating your enemies with a whip doesn't seem very "turn the other cheek" to me.
 
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