Why Abortion is Immoral

[fhansen]

You've got that backwards, but I'll give you the benefit of doubt that you meant not after. It doesn't come down to minutes, that's why I said around.

Couldn't find where I had it backwards, but either way, when does it come down to, that a fetus becomes human? Or does it even matter? I mean, to me that's a very important point in a person's life-when they're awarded full protection of the law to defend their life, and when they're not consider worthy of a right to life. Shouldn't we need to know exactly when that occurs?

 

[fhansen]

You're not pregnant.

Pregnancy is a natural occurrence in life. Tearing a fetus from the womb is a very unnatural one.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Steve,
While it may not be universally accepted, we should focus on the truth, not the lies people tell each other, or governments tell the general public, or supreme court justices tell the world, or doctors tell their patients. Had the truth been acknowledged from the very beginning, abortion would be classified as murder, and the death penalty would be applicable for first degree murder.

OK . . . lets take my daughter for an example, she had two miscarriages before she took herself to complete bed rest for her third pregnancy, and in that manner, managed to have my grandchild.

If my daughter had not gone to complete bed rest but had allowed herself normal activities, and as a result the third pregnancy had ended in miscarriage . . . . would she be guilty of murder? ( ) yes ( ) no

 

[fhansen]

But that's the point. A fetus so young as to not even have a brain yet . . . is NOT a person.

And a very small brain, to small to sustain personhood, is still not a person, yet.

In order to say abortion is the killing of a person, you have to establish the presence of a person, and that is not possible in the case of a fetus. It can only be arbitrarily assumed.

Ok, so we should be confortable with an arbitrary determination on the the point in time a fetus becomes a person? It doesn't matter if we're mistaken?

 

[SteveB28]

So, at what point, then, does the unborn become worthy of protection-of the right to life? Or is the right to life for a human, since it's reportedly just based on man-made morality anyway, not really so important to begin with?

My own view leads towards sentience, sapience and survival independent of the mother. Beyond 20-24 weeks gestation.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Ok, so we should be confortable with an arbitrary determination on the the point in time a fetus becomes a person? It doesn't matter if we're mistaken?

One can be assured that the nervous system does not support personhood in the first two trimesters.

 

[Job8]

OK . . . lets take my daughter for an example, she had two miscarriages before she took herself to complete bed rest for her third pregnancy, and in that manner, managed to have my grandchild.

If my daughter had not gone to complete bed rest but had allowed herself normal activities, and as a result the third pregnancy had ended in miscarriage . . . . would she be guilty of murder? ( ) yes ( ) no

Miscarriage and abortion are two different things. Please note:

Any unwanted, spontaneous pregnancy loss prior to the 20th week of pregnancy is considered a miscarriage. Miscarriages are a relatively common occurrence, affecting nearly 15% of all pregnancies. However, repeat miscarriages, defined by either three consecutive first-trimester losses or two with one in the first trimester and one in the second trimester, suggests that there may be an underlying medical condition. Women experiencing repeat miscarriages should consult a recurrent miscarriage specialist to avoid further losses.

 

[SteveB28]

Miscarriage and abortion are two different things. Please note:

No, his question highlights the hypocrisy perfectly. His daughter could have taken an action to heighten the probability of a spontaneous abortion, or miscarriage. Now watch the 'morally superior' scuttle for cover!

 

[Beechwell]

Yes one that identifies as being human.

I'll explain. A human father provides the sperm, and the mother provides the egg. I would explain how this happens but I don't know if you are 18 or older.

When the sperm fertilizes the egg, what results is conception. At conception the DNA is human given the mother and father are human.

You do realize though, that the DNA by itself is basically inert though, so you?
It is just a blueprint to create other specific proteins.
I guess I just don't understand the way you think about DNA or 'human'. To me your line of reasoning is like saying a recipe for a cake is already a cake.

Also, theoretically a new human being could grow from the female egg alone, without the sperm DNA. Some animals can reproduce like that. How would you characterise such a being?

 

[redleghunter]

You do realize though, that the DNA by itself is basically inert though, so you?
It is just a blueprint to create other specific proteins.
I guess I just don't understand the way you think about DNA or 'human'. To me your line of reasoning is like saying a recipe for a cake is already a cake.

Also, theoretically a new human being could grow from the female egg alone, without the sperm DNA. Some animals can reproduce like that. How would you characterise such a being?

Even out of our mother's womb we are still half baked.

 

[Beechwell]

Even out of our mother's womb we are still half baked.

True, but by then we already have a metabolism, a human physique and some Brain activity. There is at least the possibility that we are in since sense 'someone'.
It is true that we can't pinpoint any specific time when a fetus /baby becomes ' someone, probably because there is no such special moment. Nature usually doesn't deal in clear distinguishable states, it is only or human minds that try to find then.
But it is clear from what we know about fetal development that our self begins somewhere between the 20th week of gestation and since months after birth.
That is why I find no moral is issues with abortion prior to week 20 of gestation .

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Miscarriage and abortion are two different things. Please note:

So if I run a factory that releases a chemical into the environment that causes spontaneous abortion rates to go up by 10 percent I have created no harm in the community, right?

 

[redleghunter]

True, but by then we already have a metabolism, a human physique and some Brain activity. There is at least the possibility that we are in since sense 'someone'.
It is true that we can't pinpoint any specific time when a fetus /baby becomes ' someone, probably because there is no such special moment. Nature usually doesn't deal in clear distinguishable states, it is only or human minds that try to find then.
But it is clear from what we know about fetal development that our self begins somewhere between the 20th week of gestation and since months after birth.
That is why I find no moral is issues with abortion prior to week 20 of gestation .

What's interesting is the Gene Roddenberry atheist support, in concept, for the prime directive.

If a planet had some microbe the Starfleet crew avoided in that life's natural development.

I know science fiction analogy however a reflection of the 60s era of do no harm to any life.

My original point well above in the thread was just that. We should not stop what has started. Such is harm to any life. Who are we to judge early human life? Are we God? No.

If one does not ascribe to theism then the question is do we end what nature began or kick against fate?

 

[redleghunter]

So if I run a factory that releases a chemical into the environment that causes spontaneous abortion rates to go up by 10 percent I have created no harm in the community, right?

Wrong.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Wrong.

Oh, then abortion and miscarriages are not such separate catagories after all.

 

[AirPo]

Couldn't find where I had it backwards, but either way, when does it come down to, that a fetus becomes human? Or does it even matter? I mean, to me that's a very important point in a person's life-when they're awarded full protection of the law to defend their life, and when they're not consider worthy of a right to life. Shouldn't we need to know exactly when that occurs?

Well then maybe the word "killed" wasn't being use correctly. And the word I used was viable, which does not mean becoming human. Finally, if the life is not one you are carrying in your womb, then no, you don't need to know exactly when that occurs.

 

[redleghunter]

Oh, then abortion and miscarriages are not such separate catagories after all.

Intent is everything. Such was the Law as well. If a man aaccidentally killed another while chopping wood, it was not the same as if he intentionally did such.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Intent is everything. Such was the Law as well. If a man aaccidentally killed another while chopping wood, it was not the same as if he intentionally did such.

So if I run this chemical factory and miscarriages increase by a factor of 10 per cent all around that factory and that was never my intention then I can happily continue running my factory, and build another one to make even more money.

 

[redleghunter]

So if I run this chemical factory and miscarriages increase by a factor of 10 per cent all around that factory and that was never my intention then I can happily continue running my factory, and build another one to make even more money.

According to what is revealed of the Mind of God, no. There was always restitution for sin that was unintentional. The exceptions always included some harm from a violent act. That then became eye for eye, tooth for tooth, life for life.

Applying the matter to your chemical factory...If you continued on in producing the chemicals knowing you were causing harm, you would be liable for taking another life both before the civil court and the Throne of God.

I may have missed the root of your vignette of the chemical factory. So hope we are not talking past each other.

 

[redleghunter]

Oh, then abortion and miscarriages are not such separate catagories after all.

What's the intent?

So my answer is no, abortion and miscarriages are not the same category. Intent or premeditated purpose is to be considered.