White House Dfends Planned Parenthoods Ethics

[LivingWordUnity]

We are absolutely free to believe that we know better than the Popes and our Bishops on the issue of the death penalty, I didn't imply or state otherwise.

Some Popes have been against capital punishment and some have said it is sometimes necessary. The Catechism of the Catholic Church, which was called a "sure norm" by Pope St. John Paul II, says that capital punishment is sometimes needed. So if one says that it's never needed then they are disagreeing with the Catechism. Which of these opinions of the Popes are we going to choose to go with? No matter which side you take on capital punishment you are going to be disagreeing with a Pope. That's why capital punishment is considered a prudential matter.

Worthiness to Receive Holy Communion: General Principles

3. Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.

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[MikeK]

No Pope has suggested that capital punnishment is acceptable in this time or place. Popes have spoken in accepting terms on human slavery, but only an intellectually dishonest person would suggest that Catholics today are free to support slavery. Every Pope and every Bishops council that has spoken on the death penalty in our time and place has rejected it. It has been called an injustice and incompatible with a pro-life position. If you want to waffle on about how we can think we know better than them, have at it. Nobody has suggested that Catholics can support abortion or Euthanasia.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

No Pope has suggested that capital punnishment is acceptable in this time or place. Popes have spoken in accepting terms on human slavery, but only an intellectually dishonest person would suggest that Catholics today are free to support slavery. Every Pope and every Bishops council that has spoken on the death penalty in our time and place has rejected it. It has been called an injustice and incompatible with a pro-life position. If you want to waffle on about how we can think we know better than them, have at it. Nobody has suggested that Catholics can support abortion or Euthanasia.

I suggest that you read what the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith has said about it in my post above.

"Everything passes, only God remains. Indeed, kingdoms, peoples, cultures, nations, ideologies, powers have passed, but the Church, founded on Christ, notwithstanding the many storms and our many sins, remains ever faithful to the deposit of faith shown in service; for the Church does not belong to Popes, bishops, priests, nor the lay faithful; the Church in every moment belongs solely to Christ." - Pope Francis (emphasis added)

"It is the mission of the Magisterium to affirm the definitive character of the Covenant established by God through Christ with His People in a way which is consistent with the 'eschatological' nature of the event of Jesus Christ. It must protect God's People from the danger of deviations and confusion, guaranteeing them the objective possibility of professing the authentic faith free from error, at all times and in diverse situations. It follows that the sense and the weight of the Magisterium's authority are only intelligible in relation to the truth of Christian doctrine and the preaching of the true Word." - Donum Veritatis

"When comparing doctrines with one another, they should remember that in Catholic doctrine there exists a 'hierarchy' of truths, since they vary in their relation to the fundamental Christian faith." - Unitatis Redintegratio

"The Roman Pontiff and the bishops, in view of their office and the importance of the matter, by fitting means diligently strive to inquire properly into that revelation and to give apt expression to its contents; but a new public revelation they do not accept as pertaining to the divine deposit of faith." - Lumen Gentium, 25

"Let no Christian therefore, whether philosopher or theologian, embrace eagerly and lightly whatever novelty happens to be thought up from day to day, but rather let him weigh it with painstaking care and a balanced judgment, lest he lose or corrupt the truth he already has, with grave danger and damage to his faith." - Humani Generis

 

[LivingWordUnity]

Here's what the Church says is the purpose of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith:

So, that from now on this Sacred Congregation may more perfectly fulfill its role in promoting the sound doctrine and efficacy of the Church in the most important works of apostolate, in virtue of Our Supreme Apostolic Authority we have established the following norms to alter its name and its regulation:

1. That which was hitherto called the Sacred Congregation of the Holy Office will become the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, whose duty it is to safeguard doctrine on faith and morals in the whole Catholic world.

2. It is presided over by the Supreme Pontiff and directed by the Cardinal Secretary with the help of an Assessor, of a Substitute and of the Promotor of Justice.

3. All questions which regard the doctrine on faith and morals or which touch upon the faith are within the competence of the Congregation.

4. It examines new teachings and new opinions in whatever way they are spread, it promotes studies in this area, and encourages the Congresses of scholars; it condemns those teachings found to be contrary to the principles of the faith, after, however, having heard the view of the Bishops of those regions, if they are specifically connected with the issues.

5. It carefully examines books that have been reported and, if necessary, condemns them, after, however, having heard the author, to whom is given the faculty to defend himself, also in writing, and not without having notified the Ordinary, as was already established in the Constitution Sollicita ac Provida by Our Predecessor of happy memory Benedict XIV.

6. Likewise it is its duty to deal legally or in fact with questions regarding the privilege of faith.

7. It is also its duty to judge delicts crimes against the faith, according to the norms of ordinary procedure.

8. It provides for the protection of the dignity of the Sacrament of Penance, by proceeding according to the amended and approved norms that will be communicated to the Ordinaries, giving the sinner the faculty to defend himself or to choose a defender from among those authorized by the Congregation.

9. It maintains appropriate relations with the Pontifical Commission for Biblical Studies.

10. The Congregation employs a group of Consultors whom the Supreme Pontiff appoints from men around the world who are distinguished for their doctrine, prudence and expertise. If the matter to be dealt with so requires, the Consultors can be added to the experts, chosen particularly from University professors.

11. The Congregation proceeds in two ways: either administrative or judicial, according to the diverse nature of the matters to be dealt with.

12. The internal regulation of the Congregation will be made public through a particular Instruction.

What has been decreed by us in this Letter Motu Proprio data, we command be observed and ratified notwithstanding anything to the contrary.

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[MikeK]

Nothing I said is contradicted by anything you copied and pasted. You are free to believe yourself to have greater wisdom on this moral issue than our Popes and Bishops, each of which who spoke on the topic in this place and time was in unanimous agreement. I believe that their understanding of this moral issue is greater than mine and I defer to them.

 

[SolomonVII]

There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.

Exactly. Popes are not moral dictators, and to treat them as such, especially in cafeteria style, warps the faith into something that was never intended.

People who participate in abortion automatically ex-communicate themselves. They are not Catholic. Those who believe in capital punishment need to be debated on the merits of their arguments.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

Nothing I said is contradicted by anything you copied and pasted. You are free to believe yourself to have greater wisdom on this moral issue than our Popes and Bishops, each of which who spoke on the topic in this place and time was in unanimous agreement. I believe that their understanding of this moral issue is greater than mine and I defer to them.

I don't believe that I have "greater wisdom."

That's why I going with what the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith has said.
.

 

[SolomonVII]

Congress really needs to make a concerted push to de-fund Planned Parenthood, if Republicans want to remain relevant to their base.

 

[MikeK]

Exactly. Popes are not moral dictators, and to treat them as such, especially in cafeteria style, warps the faith into something that was never intended.

People who participate in abortion automatically ex-communicate themselves. They are not Catholic. Those who believe in capital punishment need to be debated on the merits of their arguments.

You are preaching error. Catholics who participate in abortion are excommunicated but are as much a Catholic as anyone else. Excommunication is not a formal act of defection, and only formal acts of defection remove one from membership in Christ's Church. It is not uncommon for people to lack knowledge of what excommunication is, but those who do not know should choose to abstain from teaching rather than teach error.

 

[MikeK]

I don't believe that I have "greater wisdom."

That's why I going with what the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith has said.
.

We're all going along with the Congregation in this discussion. I've said several times that people who think they know better than the unanimous statements of the relevant Popes and Bishops' Councils have every right to disagree with them.

 

[WarriorAngel]

It remains debateable - and disagreeable among Catholics even if they disagree with Popes or Bishops on the issue.
Abortion, Euthansia are grave matters to disagree on or perform, however.

 

[frenchdefense]

Can you post this again, one more time, I don't think I've got it yet....

I suggest that you read what the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith has said about it in my post above.

Here it is again:

Worthiness to Receive Holy Communion: General Principles

3. Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.

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[SolomonVII]

You are preaching error. Catholics who participate in abortion are excommunicated but are as much a Catholic as anyone else. Excommunication is not a formal act of defection, and only formal acts of defection remove one from membership in Christ's Church. It is not uncommon for people to lack knowledge of what excommunication is, but those who do not know should choose to abstain from teaching rather than teach error.

Potato, potahto. All the intricacies of the legalistic mumbo jumbo bores me.
They are excommunicated.
The pope is not a divine dictator. These are all human beings, and their political arguments are based in reason, and thereby merit reasonable counter arguments, rather than blind faith.

Catholicism is not a cult, and popes are not cult leaders demanding and receiving blind allegiance in all their pronouncements. That is the antithesis of Catholicism.

There are many different levels of teachings. The teachings on abortion are rock solid. You participate in it, you are automatically excommunicated. If you debate capital punishment, this is not the case.
Nuf said.

 

[MikeK]

Nobody suggested otherwise. I don't consider The eternal Truths of Christ's Church to be "legalistic mumbo jumbo" though.

 

[SolomonVII]

Nobody suggested otherwise. I don't consider The eternal Truths of Christ's Church to be "legalistic mumbo jumbo" though.

I have no interest in debating whether excommunicates are Catholic. It is a technicality that has not interest to me, and served only as an avoidance from dealing with the meat of what I posted.
The eternal truths centre on things like the resurrection, and basic morality, and not the fine print that you want to obfuscate the discussion into.
Enough with the lawyers tricks.

 

[pdudgeon]

You are preaching error. Catholics who participate in abortion are excommunicated but are as much a Catholic as anyone else. Excommunication is not a formal act of defection, and only formal acts of defection remove one from membership in Christ's Church. It is not uncommon for people to lack knowledge of what excommunication is, but those who do not know should choose to abstain from teaching rather than teach error.

and that in itself would depend upon which group of people you are comparing the excommunicated Catholic to.
by your own reasoning here you are saying that there are varieties of Catholics.

My guess is that the teachings of the church would disagree with you,
but i will leave that point for my more able brothers to expound upon.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum (On the Unity of the Church) June 29, 1896

9. The Church, founded on these principles and mindful of her office, has done nothing with greater zeal and endeavour than she has displayed in guarding the integrity of the faith. Hence she regarded as rebels and expelled from the ranks of her children all who held beliefs on any point of doctrine different from her own. The Arians, the Montanists, the Novatians, the Quartodecimans, the Eutychians, did not certainly reject all Catholic doctrine: they abandoned only a tertian portion of it. Still who does not know that they were declared heretics and banished from the bosom of the Church? In like manner were condemned all authors of heretical tenets who followed them in subsequent ages. "There can be nothing more dangerous than those heretics who admit nearly the whole cycle of doctrine, and yet by one word, as with a drop of poison, infect the real and simple faith taught by our Lord and handed down by Apostolic tradition" (Auctor Tract. de Fide Orthodoxa contra Arianos).

The practice of the Church has always been the same, as is shown by the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, who were wont to hold as outside Catholic communion, and alien to the Church, whoever would recede in the least degree from any point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative Magisterium. Epiphanius, Augustine, Theodoret, drew up a long list of the heresies of their times. St. Augustine notes that other heresies may spring up, to a single one of which, should any one give his assent, he is by the very fact cut off from Catholic unity. "No one who merely disbelieves in all (these heresies) can for that reason regard himself as a Catholic or call himself one. For there may be or may arise some other heresies, which are not set out in this work of ours, and, if any one holds to one single one of these he is not a Catholic" (S. Augustinus, De Haeresibus, n. 88).

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[pdudgeon]

Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum (On the Unity of the Church) June 29, 1896

9. The Church, founded on these principles and mindful of her office, has done nothing with greater zeal and endeavour than she has displayed in guarding the integrity of the faith. Hence she regarded as rebels and expelled from the ranks of her children all who held beliefs on any point of doctrine different from her own. The Arians, the Montanists, the Novatians, the Quartodecimans, the Eutychians, did not certainly reject all Catholic doctrine: they abandoned only a tertian portion of it. Still who does not know that they were declared heretics and banished from the bosom of the Church? In like manner were condemned all authors of heretical tenets who followed them in subsequent ages. "There can be nothing more dangerous than those heretics who admit nearly the whole cycle of doctrine, and yet by one word, as with a drop of poison, infect the real and simple faith taught by our Lord and handed down by Apostolic tradition" (Auctor Tract. de Fide Orthodoxa contra Arianos).

The practice of the Church has always been the same, as is shown by the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, who were wont to hold as outside Catholic communion, and alien to the Church, whoever would recede in the least degree from any point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative Magisterium. Epiphanius, Augustine, Theodoret, drew up a long list of the heresies of their times. St. Augustine notes that other heresies may spring up, to a single one of which, should any one give his assent, he is by the very fact cut off from Catholic unity. "No one who merely disbelieves in all (these heresies) can for that reason regard himself as a Catholic or call himself one. For there may be or may arise some other heresies, which are not set out in this work of ours, and, if any one holds to one single one of these he is not a Catholic" (S. Augustinus, De Haeresibus, n. 88).

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Thank you, brother! it just doesn't get any better than this!

 

[MikeK]

Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum (On the Unity of the Church) June 29, 1896

9. The Church, founded on these principles and mindful of her office, has done nothing with greater zeal and endeavour than she has displayed in guarding the integrity of the faith. Hence she regarded as rebels and expelled from the ranks of her children all who held beliefs on any point of doctrine different from her own. The Arians, the Montanists, the Novatians, the Quartodecimans, the Eutychians, did not certainly reject all Catholic doctrine: they abandoned only a tertian portion of it. Still who does not know that they were declared heretics and banished from the bosom of the Church? In like manner were condemned all authors of heretical tenets who followed them in subsequent ages. "There can be nothing more dangerous than those heretics who admit nearly the whole cycle of doctrine, and yet by one word, as with a drop of poison, infect the real and simple faith taught by our Lord and handed down by Apostolic tradition" (Auctor Tract. de Fide Orthodoxa contra Arianos).

The practice of the Church has always been the same, as is shown by the unanimous teaching of the Fathers, who were wont to hold as outside Catholic communion, and alien to the Church, whoever would recede in the least degree from any point of doctrine proposed by her authoritative Magisterium. Epiphanius, Augustine, Theodoret, drew up a long list of the heresies of their times. St. Augustine notes that other heresies may spring up, to a single one of which, should any one give his assent, he is by the very fact cut off from Catholic unity. "No one who merely disbelieves in all (these heresies) can for that reason regard himself as a Catholic or call himself one. For there may be or may arise some other heresies, which are not set out in this work of ours, and, if any one holds to one single one of these he is not a Catholic" (S. Augustinus, De Haeresibus, n. 88).

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I am surprised that you would quote this without also explaining he broader context of Church teaching on whether excommunication results in one no longer being Catholic. I suspect that you know the answer, and I suspect that you also know that what you copied and pasted here, taken by itself, is misleading. For clarity, I'll ask you directly and I'll trust that you are honest enough to answer directly this question about the teaching of Christ's Church: Does incurring an excommunication remove one from membership in (note: I did not say full communion) the Catholic Church?

 

[pdudgeon]

I am surprised that you would quote this without also explaining he broader context of Church teaching on whether excommunication results in one no longer being Catholic. I suspect that you know the answer, and I suspect that you also know that what you copied and pasted here, taken by itself, is misleading. For clarity, I'll ask you directly and I'll trust that you are honest enough to answer directly this question about the teaching of Christ's Church: Does incurring an excommunication remove one from membership in (note: I did not say full communion) the Catholic Church?

once again, my point here is why would anyone or any organization desire to lead Catholics knowingly into committing a sin which automatically excommunicates them?

What does that say about the intentions of the organization or the people who work there, or the people who, knowing the spiritual consequences, do willingly and with full knowledge, support such an organization?