Where is Glory in Failure?

[SavedByGrace3]

Last year the Miami Dolphins won a single game of their 16 game schedule.

1 and 15.

Is that glory? Would you say that record deserves praise and honor and cheering? Does a 1 and 15 display attributes in a team that deserve lauding?

So....
if 90% of humanity end up in hell for eternity; is that victory? If God has a plan to save mankind, and that plan only saved 10 percent of the target group... are we to say that plan is successful? Is it a winner? Does it sound like a plan that came from a mind that has infinite wisdom, power, and sovereignty? If God is indeed not willing that ANY should perish, and yet 90% of them in fact do perish; where is the glory, victory, and dominion in this?
And look at it from the other side. If Jesus suffered and endured the price to save all mankind but in fact He only ends up saving 10%... would that mean 90% of His suffering was for naught and in fact unfairly assessed?
Any ideas on how these things are rightly divided?

(another "think about this one" from dids)

 

[obsolete]

Last year the Miami Dolphins won a single game of their 16 game schedule.

1 and 15.

Is that glory? Would you say that record deserves praise and honor and cheering? Does a 1 and 15 display attributes in a team that deserve lauding?

So....
if 90% of humanity end up in hell for eternity; is that victory? If God has a plan to save mankind, and that plan only saved 10 percent of the target group... are we to say that plan is successful? Is it a winner? Does it sound like a plan that came from a mind that has infinite wisdom, power, and sovereignty? If God is indeed not willing that ANY should perish, and yet 90% of them in fact do perish; where is the glory, victory, and dominion in this?
And look at it from the other side. If Jesus suffered and endured the price to save all mankind but in fact He only ends up saving 10%... would that mean 90% of His suffering was for naught and in fact unfairly assessed?
Any ideas on how these things are rightly divided?

(another "think about this one" from dids)

It depends what few are chosen for____to govern the new millenium or eternity. Too many people don't see the big picture so incorrectly interpret scripture. The white throne judgement is 2 ages away.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

It depends what few are chosen for____to govern the new millenium or eternity. Too many people don't see the big picture so incorrectly interpret scripture. The white throne judgement is 2 ages away.

I agree... I think many people are mixing many different things together that should remain separate. God is not a failure. If He sets out a plan.. that plan is successful.

 

[obsolete]

I agree... I think many people are mixing many different things together that should remain separate. God is not a failure. If He sets out a plan.. that plan is successful.

Yes, and I think that plan is to acquire companions fit for His Son. The father doing the chosing, the Son calling all friends

Heb 10:32 But recall the former days in which, after you were illuminated, you endured a great struggle with sufferings: 33 partly while you were made a spectacle both by reproaches and tribulations, and partly while you became companions of those who were so treated; 34 for you had compassion on me in my chains, and joyfully accepted the plundering of your goods, knowing that you have a better and an enduring possession for yourselves in heaven

 

[Faulty]

That analogy is only good if the Dolphins “chose” to lose the other 15 games.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

That analogy is only good if the Dolphins “chose” to lose the other 15 games.

In the analogy, the Dolphins and their record represents God and His plan as seen by those who promote eternal hell.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

That analogy is only good if the Dolphins “chose” to lose the other 15 games.

You suggest otherwise? You suggest they did not have free will to determine whether they would play a winning game or not? You suggest something else might have had control of that situation besides themselves?

Interesting.

ETA: Oh sorry dids, this doesn't follow your analogy

Folks, ignore this aside, please continue with dids' original analogy here.

 

[churchlady]

Last year the Miami Dolphins won a single game of their 16 game schedule.

1 and 15.

Is that glory? Would you say that record deserves praise and honor and cheering? Does a 1 and 15 display attributes in a team that deserve lauding?

So....
if 90% of humanity end up in hell for eternity; is that victory? If God has a plan to save mankind, and that plan only saved 10 percent of the target group... are we to say that plan is successful? Is it a winner? Does it sound like a plan that came from a mind that has infinite wisdom, power, and sovereignty? If God is indeed not willing that ANY should perish, and yet 90% of them in fact do perish; where is the glory, victory, and dominion in this?
And look at it from the other side. If Jesus suffered and endured the price to save all mankind but in fact He only ends up saving 10%... would that mean 90% of His suffering was for naught and in fact unfairly assessed?
Any ideas on how these things are rightly divided?

(another "think about this one" from dids)

Maybe we're the firstfruits (the 10% tithe offering to God).

 

[Faulty]

In the analogy, the Dolphins and their record represents God and His plan as seen by those who promote eternal hell.

I know. People are going to hell for rejecting God. The Dolphins didn't lose by rejecting victory. Had their wins already been provided for and had to just accept them, then the analogy would have been good.

As it happened, the Dolphins faced an equal or greater opponent each week of the season and were soundly defeated as a result. Those who would choose to reject God salvation offer do not face equal or greater opposition, they have only to take it.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

I know. People are going to hell for rejecting God. The Dolphins didn't lose by rejecting victory. Had their wins already been provided for and had to just accept them, then the analogy would have been good.

As it happened, the Dolphins faced an equal or greater opponent each week of the season and were soundly defeated as a result. Those who would choose to reject God salvation offer do not face equal or greater opposition, they have only to take it.

Well in warfare we have casualties and even fatalities. People don't lose a war by rejecting victory either, nor by avoiding the fight itself. But people do lose wars -- and with them lives and limbs and other body parts. And war bes real in the spirit realm as much as in the physical.

It can see where someone might say rejecting God bes hellbound, of course. But REJECTION implies conscious awareness AND intent. Rejection cannot be done "by default". In the real world, rejection constitutes a conscious and deliberate decision daily reinforced.

Where the hellbound analogy breaks down bes in saying just because someone did not recognize that a religion touted by admittedly some of its own worst representatives in a world where the people they seek to sell it to do NOT have spiritual eyes and ears by default and therefore can NOT perform spiritual alchemy to separate dross from gold and keep the gold and go "wow, spiritual riches, awesome, thanks!!" end up deemed to be "rejecting" and therefore hellbound. NUH UH. NO conscious deliberate decision = NO rejection. Period.

Even being overtaken -- by a fault, in a sin, or even by invasive entities -- does not constitute rejection of God. It will definitely mess with one's connection to Him. It will definitely hinder one's spiritual life totally. It can even kill and destroy utterly. But this does not constitute rejection of God Himself or of salvation. The person caught in those things, faults, sins, or more, whatever, does not choose to be; they simply in most cases cannot choose NOT to be. There bes a difference you know. One can choose not to have sex. One cannot choose not to be raped. One can choose not to join a group of cultic thugs ... one cannot choose not to be kidnapped by such a group and systematically brainwashed. One can choose to try and escape a POW camp -- (E2 uses this analogy a lot ) -- one cannot choose to NOT be pursued and shot at and wounded, maimed or even killed by the guards as a result.

People who lose wars do not do so because they reject victory. People who lose sight or hearing do not do so because they reject these senses. People born without them do not suffer their loss for rejecting them. Seems to Moriah some of the standard groupthink on this bes skewed real bad and needing correcting.

 

[Faulty]

Well in warfare we have casualties and even fatalities. People don't lose a war by rejecting victory either, nor by avoiding the fight itself. But people do lose wars -- and with them lives and limbs and other body parts. And war bes real in the spirit realm as much as in the physical.

It can see where someone might say rejecting God bes hellbound, of course. But REJECTION implies conscious awareness AND intent. Rejection cannot be done "by default". In the real world, rejection constitutes a conscious and deliberate decision daily reinforced.

Where the hellbound analogy breaks down bes in saying just because someone did not recognize that a religion touted by admittedly some of its own worst representatives in a world where the people they seek to sell it to do NOT have spiritual eyes and ears by default and therefore can NOT perform spiritual alchemy to separate dross from gold and keep the gold and go "wow, spiritual riches, awesome, thanks!!" end up deemed to be "rejecting" and therefore hellbound. NUH UH. NO conscious deliberate decision = NO rejection. Period.

Even being overtaken -- by a fault, in a sin, or even by invasive entities -- does not constitute rejection of God. It will definitely mess with one's connection to Him. It will definitely hinder one's spiritual life totally. It can even kill and destroy utterly. But this does not constitute rejection of God Himself or of salvation. The person caught in those things, faults, sins, or more, whatever, does not choose to be; they simply in most cases cannot choose NOT to be. There bes a difference you know. One can choose not to have sex. One cannot choose not to be raped. One can choose not to join a group of cultic thugs ... one cannot choose not to be kidnapped by such a group and systematically brainwashed. One can choose to try and escape a POW camp -- (E2 uses this analogy a lot ) -- one cannot choose to NOT be pursued and shot at and wounded, maimed or even killed by the guards as a result.

People who lose wars do not do so because they reject victory. People who lose sight or hearing do not do so because they reject these senses. People born without them do not suffer their loss for rejecting them. Seems to Moriah some of the standard groupthink on this bes skewed real bad and needing correcting.

There are lots of things in this life that happen as a result of either choice or not. Salvation is not one of them. Every person who finds themselves in hell will know exactly why they're in there.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

There are lots of things in this life that happen as a result of either choice or not. Salvation is not one of them. Every person who finds themselves in hell will know exactly why they're in there.

OK so then would it be accurate to say no one ends up in hell who does not choose with full awareness to go there? Not "by default" mind you -- none of this game-playing nonsense saying they chose to go to hell "by default" when they chose to smoke pot, for example, or look at inappropriate contento -- but actually, purposefully, decided to go to hell as an alternative to living with God forever.

Or do you mean in the game-playing sense of pretending that making the choice they DID make equated to making one they did NOT make and did not want?

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

OK so then would it be accurate to say no one ends up in hell who does not choose with full awareness to go there? Not "by default" mind you -- none of this game-playing nonsense saying they chose to go to hell "by default" when they chose to smoke pot, for example, or look at inappropriate contento -- but actually, purposefully, decided to go to hell as an alternative to living with God forever.

Or do you mean in the game-playing sense of pretending that making the choice they DID make equated to making one they did NOT make and did not want?

It's fair to say that everyone chooses their god?

 

[SavedByGrace3]

It's fair to say that everyone chooses their god?

I am not sure choice enters into the equation. We can choose to behave in accordance with what we believe. Something that is a stuggle for everyone. Try walking off the edge of a cliff. Why cant you do it. Because you fully understand the "gravity, cliff, fall) principle.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

It's fair to say that everyone chooses their god?

It would not be fair to say that by choosing an activity that some humans believe to be "wrong" or "sinful", an individual thereby signifies his desire to be roasted in flames for all eternity. No.

And while you might say "no, but God deems these activities wrong, sinful" etc. the fact remains that to at least some of those choosing those activities they have no awareness of any God as being REAL in any sense -- their awareness simply and ONLY consists of the same relative measures of humanity we all get born into. So and so thinks this. Such and such thinks that. These people say this way you should live; those people say that. To the individual who has never met God personally or seen evidence that the story of His existence might be real, that would be ALL THEY'VE GOT. You gonna say in those circumstances they "chose their god"??? It don't THINK so.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

I am not sure choice enters into the equation. We can choose to behave in accordance with what we believe. Something that is a stuggle for everyone. Try walking off the edge of a cliff. Why cant you do it. Because you fully understand the "gravity, cliff, fall) principle.

And none of us get to choose that. We don't get to choose whether that principle exists and we don't get to choose whether we become aware of it or not. Most do, of course, at some point, but we could hypothesize about something more nebulous such as "look at inappropriate content = eternal torture after death" which makes no logical sense, does not follow rules of natural consequence but imposed one, where said impositions do NOT match the magnitude of the act, and indeed may not even be perceived as reality AT ALL.

 

[obsolete]

Sin is a deliberate act of turning your back on God. No more no less. Just as turning to God away from idols is a deliberate act of fellowship.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Sin is a deliberate act of turning your back on God. No more no less. Just as turning to God away drom idols is a deliberate act of fellowship.

Not if the person in question has no real, actual concept of either "God" OR "sin" except as some superstition that other human beings believe in ...

 

[obsolete]

Not if the person in question has no real, actual concept of either "God" OR "sin" except as some superstition that other human beings believe in ...

Exactly, then the other people may be their idols, manmade

 

[SavedByGrace3]

... but we could hypothesize about something more nebulous such as "look at inappropriate content = eternal torture after death" which makes no logical sense, does not follow rules of natural consequence but imposed one, where said impositions do NOT match the magnitude of the act, and indeed may not even be perceived as reality AT ALL.

This is a very important point. The word says that the unknown things of God are clearly seen in creation.

Romans 1:20 RV
(20) For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse:

Where in creation do we see such any such equivalence? The worst thing that could happen to any living thing on earth is very likely the slow torturous death by some terrible disease. But where do we see ENDLESS torture as a consequence to any mistake, bad choice, or miss-step?