Where are we at in our faith? (A building up of one another thread)

[Im_A]

this is a thread i'd like to create to help build one another up.

so where are we all at in our walk? please, let's not debate about issues. let's stay focused on building up one another. discussion is surely wanted, but just discussion to listen to and give us something different to think about, if that is what we need.

i'll start off with something huge for me. at this point, i find myself in the middle between the post-modern movement and the liberal movement.

i just spend a few days with a pastor/friend of mine in Toledo, OH. his church is called Paradox Ministries. it's a home base church, meaning the church is in individual homes.

on the way back to my house, him and i got talking about God and life. something that i agree with whole heartedly, but never imagine how deep i agree with is, the idea of how us Christians are self-centered. we go to God for protection from spiritual warfare. we go to God to be saved in the afterlife. we go to God to take away our struggles. we go to God to clear up our theological issues. and now, it's like, this just seems so self-centered to me. what about the people that need God? what about the people that need something different than what was given to them? have we truly lost our site with our faith? it doesn't matter if we are liberal, conservative or whatever to me. have we truly lost our sight in the faith? it has seemed that we have gone to God for self-seeking issues.

what is left when our spiritual warfares go in stalemate? what is left when our theological issues are temporarily taken cared of? what is left when we are convinced in our head that we are "saved"? what is left when the struggles we ask for God to help us out with are either taken away, or gone in stalemate for a time? there has to be more to the faith than this stuff. there has to be more to God than what He can do for us.

what about the world we live in? it cannot be truly a wasted a place due to sin, because if that was the case, God would have either destroyed us again (no matter if one takes a literal or metaphorical interpretation of the Great Flood, the reason behind it is still the same), or the Second Coming would have already happened. ironic how Christianity is the major religion in the world today, but yet, we are still waiting for the Second Coming. so if Jesus said, the end will not come until the Gosepl is preached, where did we go wrong? are we starting to head on the right track now, with this liberal/post-modern movement? or is history just going to repeat itself again time and time again?

what about the universal calling we have all on our lives to give the Gosepl to the world, or ie, make disciples of Christ. i have no concern of saving people, i cannot do that. making disciples seems better than saving souls. what about the God's desire to save all men? what about the impact that Jesus has had over people with the life He lead, and the impact of His death upon the world? i'm just starting to believe it is more important to get the Gospel out to the world, instead of seeking God for our own issues now. i believe Jesus was truly a great example of this.

so this is where i'm at personally. this thread doesn't have to be specifically set to this opening post. that is not the point of this thread to me. this is just me saying where i'm at, and if any would like to comment, feel free to comment and if anyone wants to share where they are at without commenting, please feel free too. God Bless you all! <><

 

[Macky]

Hi tattedsaint....

Interesting post.

I share my faith, but not in a 'you gotta get saved or else????' kinda way, but in a way of just genuingly trying to do good to others. I'm far from holy and my prayer life is practically non-existant. Infact I'm so far from God at the moment I'd feel like a hypocrite if I tried to approach Him. However, today here in London we had a no. of explosions go off and for the first time in a long time I felt this overwhelming desire to pray. I prayed for those unfortunate enough to be caught up in this terrible atrocity and I believed God heard my prayers. Faith is important at all times and I guess I have to learn to be faithful when things are good as well as bad.

If I had a prayer for myself it would be to get closer to God and allow Him in to my life in a more intimate and personal way

 

[angela 2]

Where am I at?

I've become involved with the ministry of my local church. Ministry and bible study for the poor. Pastor wants me to lead that bible study on my own. I love doing it.

I do some visitng with the pastor/ hospitals, nursing homes.

I'm going to facilitate a small group/ bible study in the fall for the purpose of helping articulate a vision for the church.

I'm also working with a friend to plant a church some time in the future. We're sort of in the planning/ ground laying stage right now.

And I try as best I am able I meet the material and spiritual needs of people God puts in my path. This week I gave away (rather than selling) an expensive bike I can no longer use, and I spent time visiting with a lonely (and boring) neighbor.

All of these things are a great help to me spiritually. I find the more I give the more I get.

My church isn't the best church ever, that's not why I do these things. I've learned the truth that all churches are flawed. I do these things because they need to be done for the individual members body of Christ, and I'm blessed enough to have some training. I'm learning to accept churches the way they are, and that's growth for me.

I'm also working on accepting myself the way I am. Some things about me are the result of my genetics and history. God would have to do lots of miracles to make these things right. I've taken for myself the passage about the torn in Paul's side. If I can do better at this, it will be growth for me.

I'm also learning to accept that my contribution to my personal relationship with Jesus Christ will probably be sub-par. This because of my history with abuse by parents and husband who had 'authority' over me.

So I guess my growing edges are reaching out to others and accepting myself.

 

[PastorJason]

Where am I on the Way?

Still walking, talking with those who walk faster than I, giving encouragement to those who might be walking more slowly or those who have turned around and are headed in the other direction.

I'm a pastor, and a seminarian. I pastor especially to young people. I have a ministry of youth, mission, evangelism and education.

I appreciate tattedsaint's post. It's a problem many Christians have, when they hit a wall of angst, when their hands and feet start to itch, thinking there must be something more than simply being "saved" or waiting around knitting and waiting for the Second Coming. Thinking maybe the verbal proclamation of the Gospel isn't enough.

This, I think, is where mission starts. This is where the Gospel takes shape not in words, but in action. This is when the need to act out the love of God and the neighbor, as we have been commanded, comes forth. Now is the time that we comfort the sick, feed the hungry, show mercy to everyone who needs it, visit prisoners, and work against the institutional evils that we see daily in our world (greed, slavery, racism, hate, etc., etc.).

I stand at the threshold of this gateway, ushering in those lambs and goats in my care, trying my best to illustrate God's love for them and the world through word and action. I stumble, get things backward, screw things up. But I am always looking to the God who lures me forward for direction, for voice, for purpose. And God delivers, even through a broken clay pot like me.

By the by, on the scale of differing theologies, I'm really drawn forward by process theologians, e.g. John Cobb. It's more progressive than I would have pictured myself, but it's where I find the face of God.

Blessings on all your journeys,

PJ.

 

[Im_A]

macky: thank you for your post. i'm in a simliar position with prayer. one thing i do think tho is, even in my struggles and changing in the faith, God makes me feel worthy. i used to have a pretty negative look on myself. but now, because of God's grace and love, i feel more worthy. i'm not perfect, or even close, and i have no need for perfection, because if i was perfect, i wouldn't need God, now i'm not saying i'm going to live carelessly and wrecklessly. it's nice not having this eternal security/worrying about heaven or hell and just living in faith in that issue, because it has truly set me free to live truly and purely in the convictions wiht God, and to rely on God to daily progress me through each day i'm blessed with here on this earth. may God bless you macky, and please feel free to keep coming back and posting on this thread or on the forum. and may God be with all of you in London. i am saddened to hear this kind of autrocity happening again. may God Bless you and others around you.

angela 2: thank you for your post. it's awesome that your in a position of really reaching out to people who are in need. the ministry i try to go to when i can, we're actually coming to a point that we want to radically change, and try to get people more on fire about reaching out, then our own spiritual needs. i hope we can find ways, like your church has, to try our best to be a part of God's universal love and grace to reach out to those who are in need. and i pray God will help you with the issues you deal, due to what your husband and others have done to you. and if i might add, i don't believe our contributions to Jesus are sub-par. they have to be above par, if God's grace abounds in its true sense. i believe every small thing that we do is noticed by God and is something of worth. there have been times that i felt pretty low in this area. issues between my father and i, and at times, the nothingness i feel from his words to me in the past. but i cannot forget about God's grace and love for us human beings, and that for me, makes me realize that every effort and contribution we put into our faith is and always will be above par, no matter what one wants to say about each of us individually, and no matter what some church has to say. God Bless you!

pastor jason: thank you for your post. i agree with what you had to say here about mission. you mentioned about the angst issue. yes, i'll be the first one to admit there has been issues of angst in my faith. but on the same token, there was a sense of unfulfillment in the old way i used to be in the faith. i could go on with my story but i'll hold back for now. but this unfulfillment has lead me to seek fulfillment with God, and now i'm at a point of being fulfilled everyday in this search. kind of nice having my cub being filled daily, instead of hoping for it to be completely filled today. so there's a little reason about the angst part that you mentioned. i think angst in this issue is not a bad thing, only, if one can keep in control, and that is what i'm learning to do and doing a lot better on. i hope God keeps using you in your church/ministry. and God Bless you on your search with the theology you've been getting into. i myself am somewhere between the post-modern movement and liberal movement. i've been liking the stuff coming from Marcus Borg and Brian McLaren, and got a feeling, i'll enjoy reading Paul Tillich. God Bless you!

it is nice to see to see how our points in our walk seem to be more based around reaching the needs of others, ie The Great Commission. it's nice seeing this. God Bless you all! <><

 

[flautist]

I'm kind of going about this the opposite way from you all. I have always been one to have great compassion for others, and have always been one to want to help others, and have. That has never been a problem for me. I am in the place now that I like to call the "teenage stage" of my faith. The stage where I am questioning everything, trying to understand everything. And, you know, I think I ALWAYS want to be in the teenage stage, for when you question things is when you learn the most.

tatted, I am longing to reach the place you are in that respect, where you can rest in the faith that through Christ, you are worthy no matter what, and that you no longer have to worry about heaven and hell. I worry about that a lot, and I am striving for the place where I can rest without those worries.

 

[Im_A]

I'm kind of going about this the opposite way from you all. I have always been one to have great compassion for others, and have always been one to want to help others, and have. That has never been a problem for me. I am in the place now that I like to call the "teenage stage" of my faith. The stage where I am questioning everything, trying to understand everything. And, you know, I think I ALWAYS want to be in the teenage stage, for when you question things is when you learn the most.

tatted, I am longing to reach the place you are in that respect, where you can rest in the faith that through Christ, you are worthy no matter what, and that you no longer have to worry about heaven and hell. I worry about that a lot, and I am striving for the place where I can rest without those worries.

i don't see anything wrong with questioning to understand. now if one is questioning to disbelieve, that's different. but questioning to understand and grow closer is what it is all about to me. but i think, starting to see it from living for others, i do believe we start to live for ourselves once again. we see our needs being universal. maybe different from here and there. but at the same time, we have the same basic needs.

on the heaven and hell aspect, it's been a big thing on my mind for 11 years now, up until here recently. don't get me wrong. i have faith and hope that when i die, that God will let me come be with Him in eternity. i still believe in the power of God and the power of the Gospel. i do not know what to think about universalism or the idea of Christian seclusion if you will. but i do have faith and hope that when i die, i hope that God will bless me to be with Him in eternity. but i have no more need for conviction in this, or some long diatrap to convince me. why? it's hard to say to be honest with you. one, for me it lead me to a pinnacle with God, and i never want to get to a pinnacle with God again. two, there are things in the scripture that just lead me to believe that there has to be more to this faith than getting ourselves in a safe place in the afterlife. when i see that it is clearly shown that one can walk away from the faith, it shows to me at least, there is more about this faith than getting to heaven, and there is more to the faith than our own needs being met. three, when there is conviction in where we go in the afterlife, where does faith come in with being convinced? i believe as the Eastern Orthodox do, that we work out salvation our entire lives. that right there, started the change for me. when i was proposed that idea, it was so refreshing for me personally. i would rather live in hope of the only one that can judge us that He it is very well possible that He will grant me grace, and be humble for once in my faith, and think that there is actually something important to being on this world, no matter if it is only our temporary home.

i hope any of this helps you out, and if not, then thank you for listening God Bless you! <><

 

[Fish and Bread]

I have found several things of great importance to me on my faith walk. One is the simple statement in the Cathechism of the Book of Common Prayer 1979 (Sort of an Episcopalian handbook. ) that "God is love." and the implication that Christ on the cross is the ultimate sign and reflection of that love. The other is the image of Martin Luther in a movie I own, holding tight to a small wooden cross and knowing that he was saved and forgiven. I also find the passages in scripture which talk about salvation as the free undeserved gift of God to be very encouraging. These images are not the ones I grew up with, but they're the ones I hold firm to, and they give me a new and very wonderful perspective on God and faith.

John

 

[I <3 Abraham]

*Coming in late to respond to OP*

I'm at a kind of a tough spot in my faith. I'm an unbaptized son of a preacher who didn't really think about religion until I wrote my senior thesis on Kierkegaard's Fear and Trembling (hence my SN). I felt like I really met a spiritual father in Abraham, a man whose life showed that faith, real gut wrenching faith, was possible for a human. That was the big revelation for me, since then I have been trying to wrestle with sin and salvation, although my own soul's salvation is not what drives me. I really have a great desire to know God and I think that is why I consider Abraham so enviable and terrifying at the same time. But actually, the character that I envy the most in the bible is Isaac. Isaac was able to witness a miracle, when the miracle really REALLY had to happen. He didn't need faith, someone else was shouldering that burden for him. This turned into a big ramble but the point is that I am going to go into Theology for graduate school.

 

[ottaia]

Maybe we need to keep this thread going. We need to be building each other up. We seem to be tearing at each other. I think it was from a DC Talk song, "The one thing an unbelieving world finds unbelievable is how Christians can proclaim Christ with therir lips and deny him with their lives."

On the threads, this is our life. We are not doing a good job of being very Christian.

Ok, I am off my soapbox.

Where is my spiritual walk? It is kind of all over the place. I feel very much like Paul, "Lord I believe you, forgive me for my disbelief!" But I have seen, quite recently even, where God can use us even when we feel broken. I use the hermaneutic of "Parent and Child" in looking at my faith. As a child, I didn't understand why my parents did the things they did or why I had to do the things they were telling me. Now that I am older, it is starting to make sense. I look at God in the same way. I do not always know why things are happening the way they are, but I trust that God knows what is happening and eventually, in the fullness of time, it will make some sense.

Peace

 

[Arikereba]

In the past year, I've broken my arm, twisted my ankle, ended a 1.5-year relationship, and gotten the worst grades of my life--which are still pretty good, but worse than I expect from myself. I have scars, for the first time in my life, including emotional ones.

Which is just to say...there are times when all you can do is rest in your trust in God, and know that God is merciful.

Hm. Just as I was typing this I found that my church is going to be doing small-group gatherings this autumn. Looks like it's going to conflict with my work schedule, but I can hope, and e-mail to see what can be worked out.

 

[Im_A]

Maybe we need to keep this thread going. We need to be building each other up. We seem to be tearing at each other. I think it was from a DC Talk song, "The one thing an unbelieving world finds unbelievable is how Christians can proclaim Christ with therir lips and deny him with their lives."

On the threads, this is our life. We are not doing a good job of being very Christian.

Ok, I am off my soapbox.

Where is my spiritual walk? It is kind of all over the place. I feel very much like Paul, "Lord I believe you, forgive me for my disbelief!" But I have seen, quite recently even, where God can use us even when we feel broken. I use the hermaneutic of "Parent and Child" in looking at my faith. As a child, I didn't understand why my parents did the things they did or why I had to do the things they were telling me. Now that I am older, it is starting to make sense. I look at God in the same way. I do not always know why things are happening the way they are, but I trust that God knows what is happening and eventually, in the fullness of time, it will make some sense.

Peace

i agree. i hope this thread keeps on going.

and i agree with you with the rest of your post. i feel like making that prayer that Paul made a lot anymore. not because of my recent changes in theological beliefs, but because even then when i'm happy with my progress in theological views, i still very stressed out in this faith, that times, complete alienation seems so beautiful. but i've been at these points before, nothing new, and i know God will get me through it, as He's done many times before.

i'm tired of how Christians can be towards one another, and when i get frustrated and lose my cool, i become a part of the problem, not of the solution. it's a contagious cancer. i'm sick of some idea that Christianity is supposed to absolute truth, but yet, there are so many truths in this thing that is supposed to non-contradictory. the only thing that seems applicable, fruitful, worth of anything is Jesus's Passion on the cross, His life, His resurecttion, even in the idea of it being metaphorical or literal. sometimes the ideas of the afterlife seems pointless to even hope for, or even believe in.

so i guess right now, oddly enough, i feel the yin and the yang in my faith. i feel the yin, the peace of growing with God, being happy where i'm changing, but the yang of being discouraged with this thing called Christianity.

 

[Abiel]

I am tired. Tired of Christians being mean. Makes it hard to preach a gospel message of love.

 

[seebs]

Be well. There is rest for the weary.

 

[ottaia]

...complete alienation seems so beautiful. but i've been at these points before, nothing new...

Hey Tatt, I don't quite understand what you mean here.

 

[Im_A]

Hey Tatt, I don't quite understand what you mean here.

alienation meaning, completely walking away from the faith.

the last time i was at this point was back when i went to college for a time.

mom and i got into a huge argument. i wasn't living right, not going to classes and all that bs. well, in an argument, somehow the topic of God came into discussion. and my immediate reaction was, packing up all my Bibles in a box and i held the box to my mom and said, "take this sh** away from me." now thankfully enough she didn't, and i'll tell ya, that ends an argument really quick, especially when you see mother crying after you saying something like that.

so i'm not saying i would ever do that extreme again. but when i get weary, angry, frustrated, it's just so tempting to go back to that mentality of wanting to give up period in the faith. get rid of my bibles, get rid of all my Christian books, and just live without it.

but as what happened before, i couldn't do it, i can't do it now. it's just still something that doesn't help when i feel weary, angry or anything towards Christianity.

 

[mpshiel]

so i'm not saying i would ever do that extreme again. but when i get weary, angry, frustrated, it's just so tempting to go back to that mentality of wanting to give up period in the faith. get rid of my bibles, get rid of all my Christian books, and just live without it.

but as what happened before, i couldn't do it, i can't do it now. it's just still something that doesn't help when i feel weary, angry or anything towards Christianity.

I feel the same way, in fact, one of the Bishops call me Jeremiah now becuase I shared with him Jeremiah's prayer: that he wished that he would never again open his mouth about God, that he wished that God would leave him alone and that if someone had ripped him from his mothers womb to die, it would have been a blessing (Jeremiah could get fairly graphic).

But, I am thankful for every Liberal Christian or simply kind person on Christian forum, I would much rather have a doubting tortured person who cares about people than someone who "knows" absolutely everything that everyone else "should" be.

The main ministry my partner and I are involved in is in helping the LGBT community - for instance last year we worked very hard organizing LGBT interest events in churches so those bruised by Christianity could come to not fear a church building, as well as working with AIDS day and other semi-secular services that LGBT brethern be able to handle. Many, many, many LGBT individuals have been so brutalized that anything of Christianity simply brings up old wounds and anger.

This year we have organized LGBT interest movies in churches for free - inviting church members and the community to come together to watch and then those that want to can round table talk about an issue like "common misperceptions and myths".

One of my greatest struggles is that I feel that a Church that doesn't equally welcome all christians, isn't a Christian church. Yet, increasingly, even the liberal church I go to, doesn't fit that bill (as typified today when the Pastor "walked away" from a LGBT stall event, didn't include it in any anouncements and instructed us not to announce it in church (yet it is an official outreach of the church proper...except that now niether the church nor the congregation support it?). So I stop going to church, because basically the only reason I go (which is the same as here a lot of the time) is just to remind others that "hey, I exist, and so do a whole lot of other people like me." Except now, almost every avenue to do that is gone.

To other liberal Christians, please draw strength from the fact that I need you, and my friends need you, and others I care about do to. Liberal Christians are often called to speak for those who can't or for those who are still too afriad to openly join or agree with them. I do believe it is a calling, a pretty thankless one (believe me, you don't have to agree with what I agree with, just asking questions and helping people to question "absolutes" is great). I just can't help thinking about the first group of Anglican women to be made priests and how there were women in that group in thier 70's, women who had waited and tried for 50 years, never knowing if that change would come in thier lifetime.

 

[seebs]

(I'm not discussing homosexuality here; I'm discussing a church policy and its effects.)

A while back, my church had a special meeting for worship with attention to issues facing gays and lesbians. I think it was the largest attendence we've ever had for Wednesday night, which is typically a very small group. (Small enough that we can do introductions in under a minute.)

The thing that struck me most was a woman who said that what sustained her faith was the straight people that were devoting time and effort to defending rights they would never ever exercise. That all the statements about people loving her as she was were nice, but it was the people out there in the hot sun holding up signs, not because it benefitted them, but because it benefitted someone they cared about, that brought her to tears.

I would like to think that I will over time come to more often bring people to tears of joy.

 

[Joykins]

I feel like I'm "going it alone" at this point and I don't think that should be the case.

Recently I tried again to throw out all my assumptions, as a result of a death that affected me more than I would have thought. I'm basically going around asking questions, questions, and more questions to liberals and conservatives alike, online. I'm reading some more liberal theology. I'll probably go back and read church fathers as well. I'm delving, one toe-dip at a time, into reading about mysticism and other possible glimpses of the divine, but my mind revs too much to be able to actually attempt it myself. My mind is revving too much to concentrate on prayer for more than a few minutes at a time. I feel like I'm bouncing off of mind-blowing idea after mind-blowing idea without having the mental capacity to delve into them. I feel this immense ... LOVE... that I want to express but fail miserably at doing so too often.

I feel a little trapped in our conservative church. It is a good church, the people are loving, but I'm not connecting. I'm coming to some conclusions about God, the afterlife, the Eucharist, ministry, and scripture that are not believed or at least not emphasized by my church. I want to talk openly to my husband about where my mind is going and what I'm discovering, but I'm afraid of getting a negative reaction (sometimes I get the impression he thinks that because I have some liberal tendencies, that I don't believe, which I do, and I'm so afraid of a misunderstanding); plus we've had communication problems recently, and I'm finding it incredibly difficult to form the sentences to express my ideas orally. My husband has also been incredibly busy, as his musical work is taking off, which hasn't helped for us to find time together just to talk. I would like fellowship with Christians who are struggling with similar issues that I am, who are active in community social service ministries, who believe in the Real Presence, who are willing to be genuine, and who make an attempt to show Christ's love to lesbians and gays in the church (despite any doubts or struggles they may or may not have about the whole issue). But I don't feel like I can just go find a new church and leave my family behind.

 

[Im_A]

I feel like I'm "going it alone" at this point and I don't think that should be the case.

Recently I tried again to throw out all my assumptions, as a result of a death that affected me more than I would have thought. I'm basically going around asking questions, questions, and more questions to liberals and conservatives alike, online. I'm reading some more liberal theology. I'll probably go back and read church fathers as well. I'm delving, one toe-dip at a time, into reading about mysticism and other possible glimpses of the divine, but my mind revs too much to be able to actually attempt it myself. My mind is revving too much to concentrate on prayer for more than a few minutes at a time. I feel like I'm bouncing off of mind-blowing idea after mind-blowing idea without having the mental capacity to delve into them. I feel this immense ... LOVE... that I want to express but fail miserably at doing so too often.

I feel a little trapped in our conservative church. It is a good church, the people are loving, but I'm not connecting. I'm coming to some conclusions about God, the afterlife, the Eucharist, ministry, and scripture that are not believed or at least not emphasized by my church. I want to talk openly to my husband about where my mind is going and what I'm discovering, but I'm afraid of getting a negative reaction (sometimes I get the impression he thinks that because I have some liberal tendencies, that I don't believe, which I do, and I'm so afraid of a misunderstanding); plus we've had communication problems recently, and I'm finding it incredibly difficult to form the sentences to express my ideas orally. My husband has also been incredibly busy, as his musical work is taking off, which hasn't helped for us to find time together just to talk. I would like fellowship with Christians who are struggling with similar issues that I am, who are active in community social service ministries, who believe in the Real Presence, who are willing to be genuine, and who make an attempt to show Christ's love to lesbians and gays in the church (despite any doubts or struggles they may or may not have about the whole issue). But I don't feel like I can just go find a new church and leave my family behind.

have you ever thought possibly about maybe like when you get the chance to speak with your husband, maybe like asking him if he would go to a new church that fits more along your views maybe like on an evening service, and maybe take turns. maybe like one sunday do a morning service at either place, then in the evening, do an evening service somewhere.

sounds simple i know, and maybe you've already tried that, but just an idea