When Webb sees Oxygen and Water, perhaps methane on exoplanets...

Halbhh

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Ha! Yet again you use terminologies in lay-person, unscientific ways.
Desires/beliefs are not straight up emotions .. therefore I did not tell you what your emotions were (and my posts are not mistaken).

Desires:

Your expression about 'things that make {exo-life} seem more likely', is an expression of both desire and belief and is ultimately aimed at persuading others of its existence elsewhere in the universe. You reinforce this via your implied stance of being an accurate, unbiased 'mainstream' science source of knowledge on this topic. (You are, somewhat unfortunately, not alone in pursuing this particular desire/belief).
So much better for you and anyone reading your posts would be if you could do less pre-judgments and assumptions about other people.

And try to just let other people be who they are, and gradually get to know them more accurately, realistically.

You have to assume you cannot read minds remotely or emotions, etc., and stop projecting, etc.


If you find yourself still doing these offensive assigning thoughts and feelings to strangers a few months from now, really, seriously, you should seek out a counsellor to help you with the stuff you are projecting onto others, because it can destroy marriages, friendships, etc., over time, and isn't something you should be satisfied to keep doing.
 
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AV1611VET

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If Webb sees water,

Did they build that telescope with windshield wipers?

If not, you know what they say:

Don't come to church and pray for rain without bringing your umbrella.
 
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Halbhh

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Did they build that telescope with windshield wipers?

If not, you know what they say:

Don't come to church and pray for rain without bringing your umbrella.
funny

Speaking of which the JWST has been pelted by micrometeorites, and also cosmic rays (such as high energy (very fast moving) protons). So, it's going to be very gradually degraded from that (if we are lucky and nothing worse happens).

There's a plan to aim it sideways when it passes through the dust from Halley's Comet:

Over the next two years the JWST will fly through dust and debris left in the inner solar system by Halley’s comet. It could mean JWST being manoeuvred to point away from the incoming particles, thus preventing them from striking the mirrors.

I'll look for an update on how much actual degradation is happening.
 
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SelfSim

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Detecting it might be difficult, but there are plenty of definitions of life that don't involve carbon - for example:

Any semi-closed physical system that exploits the internal order it already possesses, and the energy flux passing through it, in such a way to maintain and/or increase its internal order.Churchland, P (’Matter and Consciousness’, p.271)

...the union of two crucial energetic and informatic processes producing an autonomous system that can metabolically extract and encode information from the environment of adaptive/survival value and propagate it forward through time” Krakauer et al. 2020

... a self-sustaining chemical system capable of Darwinian evolutionNASA
Hmm .. the first definition would seem to include systems which aren't what is meant whenever we use the term 'life'(?)
The second involves metabolism and adaption/survival, all of which are evidenced as being unique to only carbon based life.
The third is also only evidenced by carbon based life.

Definitions are a good basis for establishing hypotheses .. but forming hypotheses which assume things we're already familiar with, before we've actually encountered an exo-sample of interest, makes it look like not much more than a thought experiment looking for a subject which can verify that hypothesis. (IOW: Earth life as we know it).
 
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SelfSim

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Did they build that telescope with windshield wipers?

If not, you know what they say:

Don't come to church and pray for rain without bringing your umbrella.
Speaking of prayers, I just got around to watching the movie: 'The Europa Report' last night.
Man .. did they have problems with water ... and aliens! :eek:
Same issue for Ed Harris (and company) in 'The Abyss' too, IIRC.
So focussed, we are, it seems, on the imagined connection between water and 'alien life'!

Sci fi movies, I think, provide us with good insights into how humans in general think about unknowns when there is *zip* constraining objective evidence available.

The relevant law might be: 'Speculation grows, uncontrolled, with the paucity of evidence'. (see graph below, where evidence would be the 'B' axis and speculation is the 'A' axis .. its an inverse relationship):

Screen Shot 2023-02-18 at 7.22.06 am.png
 
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Halbhh

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While life forms that are highly different from what we mostly know are fun and I'd love us to find life forms using other chemistry such as zero water and so on... (that would be great), it turns out that objectively (if you don't have some prejudice) water has some remarkable unusual qualities that are most useful, and which you might not guess....

Some excerpts on how water has more than just 1 or 2 helpful effects, making it one of the possible useful aids to potential life forms (among various helpful chemistry, water stands out as exceptional).

And it's about everywhere too, let me add... Because of how supernovae make so much oxygen. So, it's not only having some useful attributes as you can read below, but also is very abundant. That doesn't hurt.
---------------

Many of water’s roles in supporting life are due to its molecular structure and a few special properties. Water is a simple molecule composed of two small, positively charged hydrogen atoms and one large negatively charged oxygen atom. When the hydrogens bind to the oxygen, it creates an asymmetrical molecule with positive charge on one side and negative charge on the other side (Figure 1). This charge differential is called polarity and dictates how water interacts with other molecules.

image3-1024x286.jpg
Figure 1: Water Chemistry. Water molecules are made of two hydrogens and one oxygen. These atoms are of different sizes and charges, which creates the asymmetry in the molecular structure and leads to strong bonds between water and other polar molecules, including water itself.

Water is the “Universal Solvent”

As a polar molecule, water interacts best with other polar molecules, such as itself. This is because of the phenomenon wherein opposite charges attract one another: because each individual water molecule has both a negative portion and a positive portion, each side is attracted to molecules of the opposite charge. This attraction allows water to form relatively strong connections, called bonds, with other polar molecules around it, including other water molecules. In this case, the positive hydrogen of one water molecule will bond with the negative oxygen of the adjacent molecule, whose own hydrogens are attracted to the next oxygen, and so on (Figure 1). Importantly, this bonding makes water molecules stick together in a property called cohesion. The cohesion of water molecules helps plants take up water at their roots. Cohesion also contributes to water’s high boiling point, which helps animals regulate body temperature.
by Molly Sargen
figures by Daniel Utter


Furthermore, since most biological molecules have some electrical asymmetry, they too are polar and water molecules can form bonds with and surround both their positive and negative regions. In the act of surrounding the polar molecules of another substance, water wriggles its way into all the nooks and crannies between molecules, effectively breaking it apart are dissolving it. This is what happens when you put sugar crystals into water: both water and sugar are polar, allowing individual water molecules to surround individual sugar molecules, breaking apart the sugar and dissolving it. Similar to polarity, some molecules are made of ions, or oppositely charged particles. Water breaks apart these ionic molecules as well by interacting with both the positively and negatively charged particles. This is what happens when you put salt in water, because salt is composed of sodium and chloride ions.

Water’s extensive capability to dissolve a variety of molecules has earned it the designation of “universal solvent,” and it is this ability that makes water such an invaluable life-sustaining force. On a biological level, water’s role as a solvent helps cells transport and use substances like oxygen or nutrients. Water-based solutions like blood help carry molecules to the necessary locations. Thus, water’s role as a solvent facilitates the transport of molecules like oxygen for respiration and has a major impact on the ability of drugs to reach their targets in the body.

....continues. Biological Roles of Water: Why is water necessary for life? - Science in the News

That was only the first thing...

The list of helpful attributes is extensive, and I'll just pick a few at random:

Water plays another key role in the biochemistry of life: bending enzymes. Enzymes are proteins that catalyze chemical reactions, making them occur much faster than they otherwise would. To do their handiwork, enzymes must take on a specific three-dimensional shape. Never mind how, but it is water molecules that facilitate this.
...
... In fact, despite its ubiquity and molecular simplicity, H2O is abnormal in the extreme.

For starters, while other substances form liquids, precious few do so under the conditions of temperature and pressure that prevail on our planet's surface. In fact, next to mercury and liquid ammonia, water is our only naturally occurring inorganic liquid, the only one not arising from organic growth. It is also the only chemical compound that occurs naturally on Earth's surface in all three physical states: solid, liquid, and gas. Good thing, otherwise the hydrological cycle that most living things rely on to ferry water from the oceans to the land and back again would not exist. As science journalist Philip Ball writes in his informative book Life's Matrix: A Biography of Water, "This cycle of evaporation and condensation has come to seem so perfectly natural that we never think to remark on why no other substances display such transformations."

Waterless life
Could life as we don't know it have gotten a start without water? Some planetary scientists have suggested that on certain very cold planetary bodies liquid ammonia might serve in place of water to incubate life. But even though it's the most common non-aqueous solvent, liquid ammonia would seem to have several other things going against it as a medium for life. Its liquid range is small, only about 30 degrees. Also, when it freezes, it sinks, and we know what that would do.

Some have suggested that oceans of methane or other hydrocarbons on places like Saturn's moon Titan could also serve the purpose. But, again, we're talking temperatures so low that chemical reactions as we know them could only proceed at a glacial pace. "At minus 150 degrees," says Bada, "most of the reactions that we think about in terms of being important in the origin of life probably wouldn't take place over the entire age of the solar system." Moreover, compounds like amino acids and DNA would not be soluble in these other liquids. "They would just be globs of gunk," Bada says."


Ok, let me just try to get a more broad summary that is brief....

This looks useful as a summary or reminder:

 
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Ophiolite

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While life forms that are highly different from what we mostly know are fun and I'd love us to find life forms using other chemistry such as zero water and so on... (that would be great), it turns out that objectively (if you don't have some prejudice) water has some remarkable unusual qualities that are most useful, and which you might not guess....

Some excerpts on how water has more than just 1 or 2 helpful effects, making it one of the possible useful aids to potential life forms (among various helpful chemistry, water stands out as exceptional).

And it's about everywhere too, let me add... Because of how supernovae make so much oxygen. So, it's not only having some useful attributes as you can read below, but also is very abundant. That doesn't hurt.
---------------

Many of water’s roles in supporting life are due to its molecular structure and a few special properties. Water is a simple molecule composed of two small, positively charged hydrogen atoms and one large negatively charged oxygen atom. When the hydrogens bind to the oxygen, it creates an asymmetrical molecule with positive charge on one side and negative charge on the other side (Figure 1). This charge differential is called polarity and dictates how water interacts with other molecules.

image3-1024x286.jpg
Figure 1: Water Chemistry. Water molecules are made of two hydrogens and one oxygen. These atoms are of different sizes and charges, which creates the asymmetry in the molecular structure and leads to strong bonds between water and other polar molecules, including water itself.

Water is the “Universal Solvent”

As a polar molecule, water interacts best with other polar molecules, such as itself. This is because of the phenomenon wherein opposite charges attract one another: because each individual water molecule has both a negative portion and a positive portion, each side is attracted to molecules of the opposite charge. This attraction allows water to form relatively strong connections, called bonds, with other polar molecules around it, including other water molecules. In this case, the positive hydrogen of one water molecule will bond with the negative oxygen of the adjacent molecule, whose own hydrogens are attracted to the next oxygen, and so on (Figure 1). Importantly, this bonding makes water molecules stick together in a property called cohesion. The cohesion of water molecules helps plants take up water at their roots. Cohesion also contributes to water’s high boiling point, which helps animals regulate body temperature.
by Molly Sargen
figures by Daniel Utter


Furthermore, since most biological molecules have some electrical asymmetry, they too are polar and water molecules can form bonds with and surround both their positive and negative regions. In the act of surrounding the polar molecules of another substance, water wriggles its way into all the nooks and crannies between molecules, effectively breaking it apart are dissolving it. This is what happens when you put sugar crystals into water: both water and sugar are polar, allowing individual water molecules to surround individual sugar molecules, breaking apart the sugar and dissolving it. Similar to polarity, some molecules are made of ions, or oppositely charged particles. Water breaks apart these ionic molecules as well by interacting with both the positively and negatively charged particles. This is what happens when you put salt in water, because salt is composed of sodium and chloride ions.

Water’s extensive capability to dissolve a variety of molecules has earned it the designation of “universal solvent,” and it is this ability that makes water such an invaluable life-sustaining force. On a biological level, water’s role as a solvent helps cells transport and use substances like oxygen or nutrients. Water-based solutions like blood help carry molecules to the necessary locations. Thus, water’s role as a solvent facilitates the transport of molecules like oxygen for respiration and has a major impact on the ability of drugs to reach their targets in the body.

....continues. Biological Roles of Water: Why is water necessary for life? - Science in the News

That was only the first thing...

The list of helpful attributes is extensive, and I'll just pick a few at random:

Water plays another key role in the biochemistry of life: bending enzymes. Enzymes are proteins that catalyze chemical reactions, making them occur much faster than they otherwise would. To do their handiwork, enzymes must take on a specific three-dimensional shape. Never mind how, but it is water molecules that facilitate this.
...
... In fact, despite its ubiquity and molecular simplicity, H2O is abnormal in the extreme.

For starters, while other substances form liquids, precious few do so under the conditions of temperature and pressure that prevail on our planet's surface. In fact, next to mercury and liquid ammonia, water is our only naturally occurring inorganic liquid, the only one not arising from organic growth. It is also the only chemical compound that occurs naturally on Earth's surface in all three physical states: solid, liquid, and gas. Good thing, otherwise the hydrological cycle that most living things rely on to ferry water from the oceans to the land and back again would not exist. As science journalist Philip Ball writes in his informative book Life's Matrix: A Biography of Water, "This cycle of evaporation and condensation has come to seem so perfectly natural that we never think to remark on why no other substances display such transformations."

Waterless life
Could life as we don't know it have gotten a start without water? Some planetary scientists have suggested that on certain very cold planetary bodies liquid ammonia might serve in place of water to incubate life. But even though it's the most common non-aqueous solvent, liquid ammonia would seem to have several other things going against it as a medium for life. Its liquid range is small, only about 30 degrees. Also, when it freezes, it sinks, and we know what that would do.

Some have suggested that oceans of methane or other hydrocarbons on places like Saturn's moon Titan could also serve the purpose. But, again, we're talking temperatures so low that chemical reactions as we know them could only proceed at a glacial pace. "At minus 150 degrees," says Bada, "most of the reactions that we think about in terms of being important in the origin of life probably wouldn't take place over the entire age of the solar system." Moreover, compounds like amino acids and DNA would not be soluble in these other liquids. "They would just be globs of gunk," Bada says."


Ok, let me just try to get a more broad summary that is brief....

This looks useful as a summary or reminder:

Accurate, relevant post. I've made the same points in discussion about the origin of life many times. However, caution is appropriate. We note these exceptional properties of water that life has made use of, because we are a form of life that uses water and takes advantage of those properties. Have we recognised, or even identified, the properties of other chemical compounds that might be exceptionally useful to a different life form?
When you already have the solution to a question in front of you, it is easier to forumlate the question. We don't have alternative life forms in front of us, so asking the right questions as to what might facilitate them is necessarily more difficult.
 
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SelfSim

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While life forms that are highly different from what we mostly know are fun and I'd love us to find life forms using other chemistry such as zero water and so on... (that would be great), it turns out that objectively (if you don't have some prejudice) water has some remarkable unusual qualities that are most useful, and which you might not guess....

Some excerpts on how water has more than just 1 or 2 helpful effects, making it one of the possible useful aids to potential life forms ..
Surveys of Earth's heavy water abundance, (the HDO/H2O ratio), concluded that between 1 and 50 percent of Earth's water originated from the approximate time of the initial phase of the Solar System's birth (about 4.5Bya). Exactly how that happened is not yet clear, as the origin and evolution of Earth's water is related to the presence of global quantitites other (common) molecules, (e.g., carbon, molecular oxygen, etc) and the evolving magnetic field. Water would also play a role in sequestering other already present primordial solar system cloud chemicals, including any building blocks of life.

Interestingly, (on a potentially parallel track), the phosphodiester bonds formed between sugar molecules and phosphate groups in DNA's nucleotides, are formed via a dehydration reaction (ie: involving the loss of water from the reacting molecule or ion), which is also speculated to have somehow happened at around the same time (ie: the very early in the development of planet Earth).

The connection between both of these evidenced pieces of information, is unknown.

See:
i) Scientists Have Figured Out Just How Old Our Water Is, And It's Old. (Dec 2022);
ii) Phosphodiester bond.
And it's about everywhere too, let me add... Because of how supernovae make so much oxygen. So, it's not only having some useful attributes as you can read below, but also is very abundant. That doesn't hurt.
(Yeah like .. whatever 'hurt' is supposed mean in the context of scientific research) ..

The above provided objectively sourced information however, implies that it the aapparently abundance of water is also not sufficient for explaining the origin of Earth-life.

Evidence:
There are no savannah animals roaming, nor grasses growing, on the plains of Mars.
Life is (rather unfortunately), speculated as existing in the highly dessicating atmosphere of Venus.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Hmm .. the first definition would seem to include systems which aren't what is meant whenever we use the term 'life'(?)
The second involves metabolism and adaption/survival, all of which are evidenced as being unique to only carbon based life.
The third is also only evidenced by carbon based life.

Definitions are a good basis for establishing hypotheses .. but forming hypotheses which assume things we're already familiar with, before we've actually encountered an exo-sample of interest, makes it look like not much more than a thought experiment looking for a subject which can verify that hypothesis. (IOW: Earth life as we know it).
Any definition we come up with is going to be grounded in the life we know - but none of the definitions I quoted implies carbon-based life. The first is, IMO, at the limit of abstraction, the other two are more specific. The first two could, in-principle, apply to even mechanical/electronic systems.
 
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SelfSim

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Any definition we come up with is going to be grounded in the life we know - but none of the definitions I quoted implies carbon-based life. The first is, IMO, at the limit of abstraction, the other two are more specific. The first two could, in-principle, apply to even mechanical/electronic systems.
Mostly agree .. however, (for openers), it takes carbon based earth-life chemistry to metabolise:
Metabolism is the set of life-sustaining chemical reactions in organisms
Ie: try having 'metabolism' mean anything without having to refer to life or bio-organic processes .. (?)
 
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SelfSim

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Waterless life
..
Some have suggested that oceans of methane or other hydrocarbons on places like Saturn's moon Titan could also serve the purpose. But, again, we're talking temperatures so low that chemical reactions as we know them could only proceed at a glacial pace. "At minus 150 degrees," says Bada, "most of the reactions that we think about in terms of being important in the origin of life probably wouldn't take place over the entire age of the solar system." Moreover, compounds like amino acids and DNA would not be soluble in these other liquids. "They would just be globs of gunk," Bada says."

Solubility of polyethers in hydrocarbons at low temperatures. A model for potential genetic backbones on warm titans, (Benner etal 2015).
Ethers are proposed here as the repeating backbone linking units in linear genetic biopolymers that might support Darwinian evolution in hydrocarbon oceans. Hydrocarbon oceans are found in our own solar system as methane mixtures on Titan. They may be found as mixtures of higher alkanes (propane, for example) on warmer hydrocarbon-rich planets in exosolar systems ("warm Titans"). We report studies on the solubility of several short polyethers in propane over its liquid range (from 85 to 231 K, or -188 °C to -42 °C). These show that polyethers are reasonably soluble in propane at temperatures down to ca. 200 K. However, their solubilities drop dramatically at still lower temperatures and become immeasurably low below 170 K, still well above the ∼ 95 K in Titan's oceans. Assuming that a liquid phase is essential for any living system, and genetic biopolymers must dissolve in that biosolvent to support Darwinism, these data suggest that we must look elsewhere to identify linear biopolymers that might support genetics in Titan's surface oceans. However, genetic molecules with polyether backbones may be suitable to support life in hydrocarbon oceans on warm Titans, where abundant organics and environments lacking corrosive water might make it easier for life to originate.
Speculative proposition in the case of so-called Titan-based 'life' .. but still founded on well known (and tested) chemistry.
 
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Estrid

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Any definition we come up with is going to be grounded in the life we know - but none of the definitions I quoted implies carbon-based life. The first is, IMO, at the limit of abstraction, the other two are more specific. The first two could, in-principle, apply to even mechanical/electronic systems.
Carbon, and water have the widest range of
properties. Life based on other things might be
vaguely possible.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Carbon, and water have the widest range of
properties. Life based on other things might be
vaguely possible.
Yes; there have been speculations about alternative chemistries and alternative solvents where liquid water isn't an option (e.g. methane on Titan), but I haven't heard of any suggestions that remotely match water and organic chemistry for energetic advantage in generating such a variety of complex polymeric molecules.
 
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Yes; there have been speculations about alternative chemistries and alternative solvents where liquid water isn't an option (e.g. methane on Titan), but I haven't heard of any suggestions that remotely match water and organic chemistry for energetic advantage in generating such a variety of complex polymeric molecules.
That's why chemistry is 0-chem, or P- Chem!
Not "element X- chem from galaxy Zor", and P-Chem.

For thems as don't know-

"O" is for Organic. As in the chemistty of carbon.
Equal approximately to all other chemistry combined.
 
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SelfSim

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Yes; there have been speculations about alternative chemistries and alternative solvents where liquid water isn't an option (e.g. methane on Titan), but I haven't heard of any suggestions that remotely match water and organic chemistry for energetic advantage in generating such a variety of complex polymeric molecules.
Model hints at prebiotic chemistry on Titan, (July 2016):
The Casini probe indicated that HCN is missing from Titan’s surface and polyimine might help explain this absence. ‘We have shown that a likely reaction product of HCN, polyimine, is capable of absorbing light of many wavelengths,’ Rahm explains. ‘If present on Titan, it may therefore allow for photochemically driven chemistry, some of which, in principle, might be prebiotic in nature.’ The sun should supply enough energy for the polymer to cleave itself, polymerise further or act as a catalyst.
...
"This [paper] shows how the structures and functions that life needs can be created with molecules present on Titan and could work in liquid methane and ethane solutions", adds Chris McKay, planetary scientist at Nasa Ames Research Center. "Amino acids, DNA and water may not be the only biochemistry for life. Clearly experimental work to follow up on these theoretical calculations is needed and then, of course, missions to Titan to see what is there".
 
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SelfSim

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Yes; there have been speculations about alternative chemistries and alternative solvents where liquid water isn't an option (e.g. methane on Titan), but I haven't heard of any suggestions that remotely match water and organic chemistry for energetic advantage in generating such a variety of complex polymeric molecules.
Further to the link in my previous post, the more detailed paper follows:

Polymorphism and electronic structure of polyimine and its potential significance for prebiotic chemistry on Titan:
The chemistry of hydrogen cyanide (HCN) is believed to be central to the origin of life question. Contradictions between Cassini–Huygens mission measurements of the atmosphere and the surface of Saturn’s moon Titan suggest that HCN-based polymers may have formed on the surface from products of atmospheric chemistry. This makes Titan a valuable “natural laboratory” for exploring potential nonterrestrial forms of prebiotic chemistry. We have used theoretical calculations to investigate the chain conformations of polyimine (pI), a polymer identified as one major component of polymerized HCN in laboratory experiments. Thanks to its flexible backbone, the polymer can exist in several different polymorphs, which are relatively close in energy. The electronic and structural variability among them is extraordinary. The band gap changes over a 3-eV range when moving from a planar sheet-like structure to increasingly coiled conformations. The primary photon absorption is predicted to occur in a window of relative transparency in Titan’s atmosphere, indicating that pI could be photochemically active and drive chemistry on the surface. The thermodynamics for adding and removing HCN from pI under Titan conditions suggests that such dynamics is plausible, provided that catalysis or photochemistry is available to sufficiently lower reaction barriers. We speculate that the directionality of pI’s intermolecular and intramolecular =N–H...N hydrogen bonds may drive the formation of partially ordered structures, some of which may synergize with photon absorption and act catalytically. Future detailed studies on proposed mechanisms and the solubility and density of the polymers will aid in the design of future missions to Titan.
In summary, (in plainer English), their study focused on polyimine (pI), a straightforward HCN polymer which would be more stable on Titan than on Earth, because liquid water tends to break it down.

Using quantum mechanical calculations, they found that in Titan conditions molecules of the polymer could absorb solar energy at frequencies which penetrate through Titan's clouds. The molecules could assume a range of shapes (e.g. sheet-like and coiled), and "hydrogen bonds may drive the formation of partially ordered structures, some of which may synergize with photon absorption and act catalytically."
 
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SelfSim

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That's why chemistry is 0-chem, or P- Chem!
Not "element X- chem from galaxy Zor", and P-Chem.

For thems as don't know-

"O" is for Organic. As in the chemistty of carbon.
Equal approximately to all other chemistry combined.
Gibberish.
 
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