When did the apostles clearly see themselves separate from the OT Jewish religion?

[tonychanyt]

NIV Acts 6:

5 This proposal pleased the whole group. They chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit; also Philip, Procorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas, and Nicolas from Antioch, a convert to Judaism.

Was Nicolas converted to the OT Jewish religion and not the new Christian religion?

Acts 11:

26 when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch.

Was Nicolas converted to the OT Jewish religion and not the new Christian religion?

English Standard Version:

And what they said pleased the whole gathering, and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolaus, a proselyte of Antioch.

Nicolaus was singled out among the seven believers as a proselyte. He was a pagan. Now he believed in YHWH and Jesus. All seven joined the nascent church. At this point, the apostles see themselves as a continuation of the Jewish faith.

When did the apostles clearly see themselves separate from the OT Jewish religion?

The separation or divergence was gradual. A milestone incident of this divergence from traditional Judaism to Messianic Judaism (the emerging Christianity) is described in Acts 13:

14And from Perga, they traveled inland to Pisidian Antioch, where they entered the synagogue on the Sabbath and sat down.

Paul preached in this traditional synagogue about Jesus the Messiah.

38Therefore let it be known to you, brothers, that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. 39Through Him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses.

At the end of the service, there was some success.

42As Paul and Barnabas were leaving the synagogue, the people urged them to continue this message on the next Sabbath. 43After the synagogue was dismissed, many of the Jews and devout converts to Judaism followed Paul and Barnabas, who spoke to them and urged them to continue in the grace of God.

With success came jealousy.

44On the following Sabbath, nearly the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord. 45But when the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy, and they blasphemously contradicted what Paul was saying.
46Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: “It was necessary to speak the word of God to you first. But since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles.

When did the apostles clearly see themselves separate from the OT Jewish faith?

It was more of a divergence than a clear-cut separation. As the nascent church began to attract more and more Gentile believers, it diverged more and more from traditional Judaism. The process was gradual over the years and decades.

From the other side's perspective, they saw the Christians as a sect.

Act 24:5

We have found this man [Paul] to be a pestilence, stirring up dissension among the Jews all over the world. He is a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes, 6and he even tried to desecrate the temple; so we seized him.

Paul's terminology was different:

14 I do confess to you, however, that I worship the God of our fathers according to the Way, which they call a sect.

There was a clear diverge at this time. This happened in the trial presided over by Governor Felix.

Two chapters later, in Acts 26:

27 King Agrippa, do you believe the prophets? I know you do.”
28Then Agrippa said to Paul, “Do you think that in such a short time you can persuade me to be a Christian?”

The divergence was even more obvious. This happened in the trial presided by King Agrippa.

When did the apostles clearly see themselves separate from the OT Jewish religion?

The separation was more like a divergence. It was a process that took some years. Within the lifetime of the Apostle Paul, the early church recognized its uniqueness.

 

[tampasteve]

When did the apostles clearly see themselves separate from the OT Jewish religion?

Never. The Apostles were part of the prevailing Jewish religion of the second temple era, they simply believed the Meshiach had arrived. They worshiped at the Temple, they followed the Jewish Law and met in the synagogues. Their followers continued to worship as a part of the broader Jewish life through the second century, and in parts of the world through the 400s and then in isolated areas until later still. That said, most believers in Yeshua as Meshiach were expelled from the synagogues sometime after 70, which by then most of the Apostles had died.

 

[Soyeong]

NIV Acts 6:

Was Nicolas converted to the OT Jewish religion and not the new Christian religion?

Acts 11:

Was Nicolas converted to the OT Jewish religion and not the new Christian religion?

English Standard Version:

Nicolaus was singled out among the seven believers as a proselyte. He was a pagan. Now he believed in YHWH and Jesus. All seven joined the nascent church. At this point, the apostles see themselves as a continuation of the Jewish faith.

When did the apostles clearly see themselves separate from the OT Jewish religion?

The separation or divergence was gradual. A milestone incident of this divergence from traditional Judaism to Messianic Judaism (the emerging Christianity) is described in Acts 13:

Paul preached in this traditional synagogue about Jesus the Messiah.

At the end of the service, there was some success.

With success came jealousy.


When did the apostles clearly see themselves separate from the OT Jewish faith?

It was more of a divergence than a clear-cut separation. As the nascent church began to attract more and more Gentile believers, it diverged more and more from traditional Judaism. The process was gradual over the years and decades.

From the other side's perspective, they saw the Christians as a sect.

Act 24:5

Paul's terminology was different:

There was a clear diverge at this time. This happened in the trial presided over by Governor Felix.

Two chapters later, in Acts 26:

The divergence was even more obvious. This happened in the trial presided by King Agrippa.

When did the apostles clearly see themselves separate from the OT Jewish religion?

The separation was more like a divergence. It was a process that took some years. Within the lifetime of the Apostle Paul, the early church recognized its uniqueness.

The God of Israel has one religion, so converting to a different religion would mean following a different god, but the Apostles did not see themselves as doing that. Jesus came as the Jewish Messiah in fulfillment of Jewish prophecy and he spent his ministry teaching how to practice Judaism by setting a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Torah. In Acts 21:20, they were rejoicing that tens of thousands of Jews were coming to faith in Jesus who were all zealous for the Torah, so Jesus coming to faith were not ceasing to practice Judaism. This means that there was a period of time between the resurrection of Jesus and the inclusion of Gentiles in Acts 10 that is estimated to be around 7-15 years during which all Christians were Torah observant Jews. In Acts 23:6, Paul never stopped identifying as a Pharisee, and in Acts 24:14, it does not leave room for "The Way" to be a sect of a religion other than Judaism. So Christianity at its origin was the form of Judaism that recognized Jesus as its prophesied Messiah.

 

[Dahveed]

When did the apostles clearly see themselves separate from the OT Jewish religion?

When their chains were loosed and they were free.

Stand therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free.

We bless Your name
We give You honor
We give You praise
You are the life the truth the way

 

[Fervent]

The apostles(and Christianity in general) never separated from the OT Jewish religion. It is the Rabbinical Jews who departed, building their religion around the mishnah rather than Torah. Which is why today Judaism is far more influenced by the Talmud than the Tanakh.

 

[AbbaLove]

This means that there was a period of time between the resurrection of Jesus and the inclusion of Gentiles in Acts 10 that is estimated to be around 7-15 years during which all Christians were Torah observant Jews. In Acts 23:6, Paul never stopped identifying as a Pharisee, and in Acts 24:14, it does not leave room for "The Way" to be a sect of a religion other than Judaism. Gentile Christians were not required to convert to origin to Judai

The first so-called 'Christians' at Antioch were not Torah Observant. Give any credt to 'Judiazers' for requiring non-Jewish "Christian' males to be circumcised as well as instructed in the hundreds of Jewish Mitzvahs. (commands). The goal being gentile converts to Judaism.

However the first gentile "Christians" were not required to be schooled in the first 5 books of the Torah. Neither was circumcision required of gentile Christian males according to those Apostles attending the Jerusalem Council .(Acts 15:27-29). ...

27 Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. 28 It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: 29 You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things.​

The "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" at Antioch was apparently the determining factor that a gentile convert was considered a "Christian".

Acts 11:15-17
15 “As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as He had come on us at the beginning. 16 Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized with[a] water, but you will be baptized with[b] the Holy Spirit.’ 17 So if God gave them the same gift he gave us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could stand in God’s way?”​

Torah Observant Jews were commanded to follow the hundreds of Mitzvahs ... A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments) - Judaism 101 (JewFAQ).
Ramban's (1194-1270) 613 commandments is probably the most widely accepted list, but not the only one. Strangely the Talmud provides no list.

 

[Soyeong]

The first so-called 'Christians' at Antioch were not Torah Observant. Give any credt to 'Judiazers' for requiring non-Jewish "Christian' males to be circumcised as well as instructed in the hundreds of Jewish Mitzvahs. (commands). The goal being gentile converts to Judaism.

However the first gentile "Christians" were not required to be schooled in the first 5 books of the Torah. Neither was circumcision required of gentile Christian males according to those Apostles attending the Jerusalem Council .(Acts 15:27-29). ...

27 Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. 28 It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: 29 You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things.​

The "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" at Antioch was apparently the determining factor that a gentile convert was considered a "Christian".

Acts 11:15-17​

15 “As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as He had come on us at the beginning. 16 Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized with[a] water, but you will be baptized with[b] the Holy Spirit.’ 17 So if God gave them the same gift he gave us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could stand in God’s way?”​

Torah Observant Jews were commanded to follow the hundreds of Mitzvahs ... A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments) - Judaism 101 (JewFAQ).
Ramban's (1194-1270) 613 commandments is probably the most widely accepted list, but not the only one. Strangely the Talmud provides no list.

Gentiles were not included until Acts 10, which means that all Christians were Jews prior to that point, and these Jews were becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Torah in accordance with believing in what Jesus accomplished through the cross (Acts 21:20, Titus 2:14). Christ set a perfect example for us to follow of how to practice Judaism by living in sinless obedience to the Torah and Christianity at its origin was the form of Judaism that recognized Jesus as the Messiah made up of members who practiced the same religion that Jesu practiced in the manner that he practiced it. Gentiles do not need to become Jews in order to follow Christ example of practicing Judaism, but Gentiles can't follow Jesus while refusing to follow the religion that he practiced. Paul's problem with the Judaizers was not that they were teaching Gentiles how to practice the religion that Christ practiced, but that they were wanting to require Gentiles to obey their works of the law in order to become saved.

Either Acts 15:19-21 contains an exhaustive list of all that would ever be required for mature Gentile believers or it does not, so it is contradictory to treat it as being a non-exhaustive list by saying that there are obviously other laws that Gentiles should follow such as the greatest two commandments while also treating it as being an exhaustive list to limit which laws Gentiles should follow. Moreover, in Matthew 22:36-40, Jesus said that all of the other commandments hang on the greatest two, so if you think that Gentiles should obey the greatest two commandments, then you should also think that Gentiles should obey all of the other laws than hang on them. It was not given as an exhaustive list for mature believers, but as stated it was given as a list in order to avoid making things too difficult for new believers, which they excused in Acts 15:21 by expecting that Gentiles would continued to be schooled in how to obey the Books of Moses by hearing them taught every Sabbath in the synagogues.

In Ezekiel 36:26-27, the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey the Torah, so being baptized by the Spirit means that they were Torah observant. Likewise, in Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Torah.

 

[AbbaLove]

You seem to minimize the Jewish laws imposed by Jewish believers (Acts 15:1-4) for a 'born again' non-Jewish gentile 'Christians' to be considered "saved" having already been Baptized by the Holy Spirit. You are certainly aware that even within Messianic Judaism (Jews and non-Jews) that Jewish OT commands are discussed moreso than is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit as a indication of a 'born again' Christian.

Acts 15:5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”​

6 ... the Apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8 God, who knows the heart, showed that He accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as He did to us. 9 He did not discriminate between us and them, for He purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.

Acts 15:13 ... James spoke up. “Brothers,” he said, “listen to me. ... 19 “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21 For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.”​

According to both Peter and James the evidence of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit in non-Jewish Believers was led them to obeying the LORD ...

1 John 2:27 - "But the anointing that you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as His anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie—just as it has taught you, abide in Him.​

The Jerusalem Council came to agreement on what was required of the non-Jewish 'Christians' at Antioch .(The Council's Letter, Acts 15:22-29)

 

[Soyeong]

You seem to minimize the Jewish laws imposed by Jewish believers (Acts 15:1-4) for a 'born again' non-Jewish gentile 'Christians' to be considered "saved" having already been Baptized by the Holy Spirit. You are certainly aware that even within Messianic Judaism (Jews and non-Jews) that Jewish OT commands are discussed moreso than is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit as a indication of a 'born again' Christian.

Acts 15:5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”​

Acts 15:6-11- 6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8 God, who knows the heart, showed that He accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9 He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.​

Acts 15:13 ... James spoke up. “Brothers,” he said, “listen to me. ... 19 “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21 For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.”​

According to both Peter and James the evidence of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit in non-Jewish Believers was led them to obeying the LORD ...

1 John 2:27 - "But the anointing that you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as His anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie—just as it has taught you, abide in Him.​

The Jerusalem Council came to agreement on what was required of the non-Jewish 'Christians' at Antioch .(The Council's Letter, Acts 15:22-29)

The Psalms express an extremely positive view of the Law of Moses, such as with David repeatedly saying that he loved it and delighted in obeying it, so if we consider the Psalms to be Scripture and to therefore express a correct view of the Law of Moses, then we will share it, as Paul did (Romans 7:22), while anything less than the view that we ought to delight in obeying it is incompatible with the view that the Psalms are Scripture. In Matthew 4:15-23, Christ began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Law of Moses was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel message. Moreover, in Deuteronomy 30:11-20, it says that the Law of Moses is not too difficult for us to obey and that obedience to it brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life!

So the interpretation that Acts 15:10 is a ruling against Gentiles obeying the Law of Moses is contrary to the view that the Psalms are Scripture, it is contrary to Gentiles believing in the light of the Gospel, it is contrary to Gentiles following Christ, it is in direct disagreement with God, and it is saying that Gentiles should choose death and a curse instead of life and a blessing. However, Acts 15:11 makes it clear that the burden that no one can bear is not the Law of Moses, but a means of salvation that is an alternative to salvation through grace, namely salvation through circumcision that was proposed by the men from Judea in Acts 15:1.

In Acts 15:5, the men from Judea were opposed by believers from among the Pharisees who said that Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the Law of Moses, so neither of the groups made the case before the Jerusalem Council that Gentiles shouldn't be circumcised or obey the Law of Moses, but rather they were discussing the means of salvation. In Acts 15:6-9, Peter spoke about Gentiles who had heard and believed the Gospel message and who had been given the Spirit, so he was speaking about Gentiles who had repented and were obeying the Law of Moses in accordance with believing the Gospel that Jesus taught and prophesied would be proclaimed to the Gentiles (Matthew 24:12-14).

In Acts 5:32, the Spirit has been given to those who obey God. In John 16:13, the Spirit has the role of leading us in truth, in Ezekiel 36:26-27, the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey the Law of Moses, and in Psalms 119:142, the Law of Moses is truth. In John 16:8, the Spirit has the role of convicting us of sin, and in Romans 3:20, it is by the Law of Moses that we have knowledge of sin. In Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Law of Moses. In Galatians 5:19-23, everything listed as works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against the Law of Moses, while all of the fruits of the Spirit are in accordance with it. In Romans 2:25-29, the way to recognize that a Gentile has a circumcised heart is by observing their obedience to the Law of Moses, which is the same way to tell for a Jew (Deuteronomy 30:6), and circumcision of the heart is a matter of the Spirit, which is in contrast with Acts 7:51-53, where those who have uncircumcised hearts resist the Spirit and do not obey the Law of Moses. So again the fact that Gentiles had been given the Spirit means that they were obeying the Law of Moses.

In Acts 15:12-18, they saw the inclusion of Gentiles as being part of the restoration of Israel in fulfillment of prophecy, not as being a brand new entity that was apart from Israel. In Acts 15:19-29, the became concerned over overwhelming new believers by holding them accountable to follow a large body of laws on day one, so they started Gentiles off with the basics with the expectation that they would continue to learn how to obey the rest over time by hearing Moses taught every Sabbath in the synagogues (Acts 15:21).

 

[Aaron112]

This means that there was a period of time between the resurrection of Jesus and the inclusion of Gentiles in Acts 10 that is estimated to be around 7-15 years during which all Christians were Torah observant Jews.

Good point.

 

[AbbaLove]

Depends on a "born again" Believers understanding of "Torah Observant" (God's laws/commands on one's heart). Perhaps it would help if Christans of non-Jewish ancestry would attend a Messianic congregation service on Shabbat. Have the Rabbi explain what he considers to be a sufficient understanding for a Torah Observant Believer in Messiah Yeshuah (ofJewish ancestry) to be considered a "Christian" with respect to the 1st century Pauline epistles.

The vast majority of "Christendom" recognizes the 1st day of the week as the Lord's Day. However according to many Messianic Believers one isn't "Torah Observant" if they don't observe/honor the Sabbath on the 7th day of the week.

Yeshua says, "For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day." (Matthew 12:8). In Rev 1:10 John writes ...

10 "On the Lord’s Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet,"
(try convincing Christendom that the Lords' Day is on Saturday and you'll be called an apostate)​

On March 7, 321 AD, Roman Emperor Constantine I issued a civil decree making Sunday a day of rest from labor, stating: "All judges and city people and the craftsmen shall rest upon the venerable day of the sun". This was reaffirmed again at the Nicaea Council in 325 AD, with Sunday being the Lords Day with His resurrection on the 1st day of the week.

The majority of today's Messianic congregations of both Jewish and non-Jewish Believers consider Torah Observance to be a preconditions were 1st century Jewish "Christians". However as typical of religious theology there is no finite definition of all that entails "Torah Observance" within today's congregations of Messianic Judaism.

To further compound matters some Messianic Jews don't consider themselves to be a "Christian" when in 325 AD both Catholicism and later Protestantism counted the Lord's Day on the 1st day of thw week.

 

[Aaron112]

However according to many Messianic Believers one isn't "Torah Observant" if they don't observe/honor the Sabbath on the 7th day of the week.

According to all Scripture, not just one group of believers.

 

[Aaron112]

However as typical of religious theology there is no finite definition of all that entails "Torah Observance" within today's congregations of Messianic Judaism.

Does it matter what any religion says concerning this?
i.e.
stick with Scripture, and test everything by Scripture, as Yahweh Permits and Reveals this to small children, as Jesus Himself Says in the NT.

 

[AbbaLove]

Does it matter what any religion says concerning this?

Perhaps you meant to say "does it matter what any Christian denomination says concerning this?" instead of any religion (our relationship NOT religion/denomination is what matters)

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus..

stick with Scripture, and test everything by Scripture, as Yahweh Permits and Reveals this to small children, as Jesus Himself Says in the NT

(Luke 10:21)​

The Bible has been (and still is) the subject of more interpretations and debates by "Christians" than any other book. There's a diversity among "Christians" with each one having at least a speck in one eye and perhaps a log in the other. Then again we've all known at least one "Christian" who would have us believe that any speck in his/her eye is that no dimness, is so dark as to cloud their understanding ...

Now we see a dim reflection, as if we were looking into a mirror, but then we shall see clearly. Now I know only a part, but then I will know fully, as God has known me.

And [I pray] that the eyes of your heart [the very center and core of your being] may be enlightened [flooded with light by the Holy Spirit], so that you will know and cherish the [a]hope [the divine guarantee, the confident expectation] to which He has called you, the riches of His glorious inheritance in the [b]saints (God’s people),​

Shabbat Shalom​

 

[Yekcidmij]

NIV Acts 6:

Was Nicolas converted to the OT Jewish religion and not the new Christian religion?

Acts 11:

Was Nicolas converted to the OT Jewish religion and not the new Christian religion?

English Standard Version:

Nicolaus was singled out among the seven believers as a proselyte. He was a pagan. Now he believed in YHWH and Jesus. All seven joined the nascent church. At this point, the apostles see themselves as a continuation of the Jewish faith.

When did the apostles clearly see themselves separate from the OT Jewish religion?

The separation or divergence was gradual. A milestone incident of this divergence from traditional Judaism to Messianic Judaism (the emerging Christianity) is described in Acts 13:

Paul preached in this traditional synagogue about Jesus the Messiah.

At the end of the service, there was some success.

With success came jealousy.


When did the apostles clearly see themselves separate from the OT Jewish faith?

It was more of a divergence than a clear-cut separation. As the nascent church began to attract more and more Gentile believers, it diverged more and more from traditional Judaism. The process was gradual over the years and decades.

From the other side's perspective, they saw the Christians as a sect.

Act 24:5

Paul's terminology was different:

There was a clear diverge at this time. This happened in the trial presided over by Governor Felix.

Two chapters later, in Acts 26:

The divergence was even more obvious. This happened in the trial presided by King Agrippa.

When did the apostles clearly see themselves separate from the OT Jewish religion?

The separation was more like a divergence. It was a process that took some years. Within the lifetime of the Apostle Paul, the early church recognized its uniqueness.

Many scholars seem to think it was after the destruction of the temple in AD 70 that the two groups became identifiably separate. The evidence from John would also suggest that at some point by AD 90-ish, at least some Christians were expelled from the synagogues.

There are also probably some social-political factors to take into account regarding how the Romans treated Jews and Christians. Initially, Christians were probably considered just another group within Judaism. When Claudius expelled the Jews from Rome (recorded in Tacitus, Suetonius, and Acts), Christians were expelled with them. To the Romans at least, they were all part of the same thing.

After AD 70 there seems to have been some incresibly negative Roman attitudes toward Jews. Romans made Jews pay the "fiscus Judaicus" tax, while Christians may have tried to distance themselves from having to pay this. If Eusibius is correct, rather than participate in the rebellion with other Jews, Christians fled Jerusalem . Why should Christians have to pay a pentaly, then? Well, maybe to Jews then, Christians weren't really Jews anymore and so they shouldn't have the same religious exemptions Jews had in the Roman emprie? Maybe they ought to be offering sacrifices to the emperor? I'm terribly simplifying issue heres; it's complex, but maybe this could be a rough starting point.

So sometime AD 70-90 is probably when the split took full effect. Prior to AD 70-ish, Christianity was probably thought of as just a particular part of Judaism. Christians simply believed Jesus was the promised Messiah and risen from the dead.

 

[Soyeong]

Depends on a "born again" Believers understanding of "Torah Observant" (God's laws/commands on one's heart). Perhaps it would help if Christans of non-Jewish ancestry would attend a Messianic congregation service on Shabbat. Have the Rabbi explain what he considers to be a sufficient understanding for a Torah Observant Believer in Messiah Yeshuah (ofJewish ancestry) to be considered a "Christian" with respect to the 1st century Pauline epistles.

The vast majority of "Christendom" recognizes the 1st day of the week as the Lord's Day. However according to many Messianic Believers one isn't "Torah Observant" if they don't observe/honor the Sabbath on the 7th day of the week.

Yeshua says, "For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day." (Matthew 12:8). In Rev 1:10 John writes ...

10 "On the Lord’s Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet,"
(try convincing Christendom that the Lords' Day is on Saturday and you'll be called an apostate)​

On March 7, 321 AD, Roman Emperor Constantine I issued a civil decree making Sunday a day of rest from labor, stating: "All judges and city people and the craftsmen shall rest upon the venerable day of the sun". This was reaffirmed again at the Nicaea Council in 325 AD, with Sunday being the Lords Day with His resurrection on the 1st day of the week.

The majority of today's Messianic congregations of both Jewish and non-Jewish Believers consider Torah Observance to be a preconditions were 1st century Jewish "Christians". However as typical of religious theology there is no finite definition of all that entails "Torah Observance" within today's congregations of Messianic Judaism.

The day of the Lord has a specific meaning in Jewish eschatology that refers to the day that John was seeing in his vision, not to the day of the week that he happened to have his vision. However, God commanded his people to keep the 7th day holy, so we should do that regardless of which day is considered to be the Lord's day. There is nothing wrong with someone choosing to follow their own tradition of worshiping God on any day of the week in honor of the resurrection in addition to obeying God's command to keep the 7th day holy, but we should not hypocritically set aside what God has commanded in order to establish our own traditions (Mark 7:6-9). Someone trying to honor the resurrection by returning the lawlessly that Jesus gave himself to redeem us from would be like a husband trying to honor his wife by committing adultery.

To further compound matters some Messianic Jews don't consider themselves to be a "Christian" when in 325 AD both Catholicism and later Protestantism counted the Lord's Day on the 1st day of thw week.

The problem is that a Messianic labeling themselves as "Christian" communicates to the average person things that are false about what they believe insofar as it indicates that they are not someone who is Torah observant, while not labeling themselves as "Christian" communicates even more things to the average person that are false about what they believe.

 

[tampasteve]

The problem is that a Messianic labeling themselves as "Christian" communicates to the average person things that are false about what they believe insofar as it indicates that they are not someone who is Torah observant, while not labeling themselves as "Christian" communicates even more things to the average person that are false about what they believe.

Or, to put it another way "too Christian for the Jewish people and too Jewish for the Christians". It can be a tough spot to be in.

 

[Soyeong]

Or, to put it another way "too Christian for the Jewish people and too Jewish for the Christians". It can be a tough spot to be in.

Jewish people can be Christians, so that does not quite describe it either.

 

[tampasteve]

Jewish people can be Christians, so that does not quite describe it either.

I mean in look and practices, not so much in the ethno-religious sense. It's actually not my phrase, it is a fairly common saying in some Messianic circles that shows how the beliefs and practices of Messianic believers don't really fit into either main category.

 

[Soyeong]

I mean in look and practices, not so much in the ethno-religious sense. It's actually not my phrase, it is a fairly common saying in some Messianic circles that shows how the beliefs and practices of Messianic believers don't really fit into either main category.

I do know some Messianic Gentiles who are more Orthodox in practice than some Jews.