What would be the effect of forcibly keeping selection pressures a constant?

[Gottservant]

Hi there!

I am not in any way going to approach Evolutionists directly with this, as they cannot be trusted to keep from trampling even the slightest pearl, but I was wondering, say you took Evolution seriously and you decided you wanted to take on the massive task of forcibly keeping selection pressures all over the Earth under control, what would happen?

I imagine that the difficulty of creating some kind of synergy, of the kind that God brought about, would be an almost impossible task and in fact, the only reason I do not say it would be completely impossible is that God did it! Actually Jesus says the things which are impossible with men are possible with God, so maybe Man controlling selection pressures across the entire world is actually impossible, precisely because he will always try to do it without God!

I don't know. I expect it may work in selected areas, say in food production. But then, we already had selective breeding, so Evolution is really just formalizing what we were trying to do anyway. Does that make it part of God's plan, do you think? I'm just wondering here. The benefit of course, is that when Man sees how difficult it is, he will give glory to God that it couldn't have happened without Him.

I guess the thing I am wondering is, how do you help someone who has that kind of goal? What do you offer? And how do you offer it in a way that leaves a window open for the faith? Just doing your job to the best of your ability seems to be part of it, since that shows your faith has works. I don't know. Certainly just arguing with them isn't going to help, heaping up evidence for God is slightly different to that, but not much. Any ideas?

 

[LottyH]

Hi there!

I am not in any way going to approach Evolutionists directly with this, as they cannot be trusted to keep from trampling even the slightest pearl, but I was wondering, say you took Evolution seriously and you decided you wanted to take on the massive task of forcibly keeping selection pressures all over the Earth under control, what would happen?

I imagine that the difficulty of creating some kind of synergy, of the kind that God brought about, would be an almost impossible task and in fact, the only reason I do not say it would be completely impossible is that God did it! Actually Jesus says the things which are impossible with men are possible with God, so maybe Man controlling selection pressures across the entire world is actually impossible, precisely because he will always try to do it without God!

I don't know. I expect it may work in selected areas, say in food production. But then, we already had selective breeding, so Evolution is really just formalizing what we were trying to do anyway. Does that make it part of God's plan, do you think? I'm just wondering here. The benefit of course, is that when Man sees how difficult it is, he will give glory to God that it couldn't have happened without Him.

I guess the thing I am wondering is, how do you help someone who has that kind of goal? What do you offer? And how do you offer it in a way that leaves a window open for the faith? Just doing your job to the best of your ability seems to be part of it, since that shows your faith has works. I don't know. Certainly just arguing with them isn't going to help, heaping up evidence for God is slightly different to that, but not much. Any ideas?

I'm really not an expert in this area but I thought I'd put my bit in anyway! I really don't believe in evolution because I don't see evidence of animals evolving, for example if apes evolved into man because of natural selection/survival of the fittest etc surely all the apes would have died out by now if they weren't able to evolve. But they are currently living without any apparent physical characteristic that needs to change in order for their survival. I don't see any living evidence of continued evolution of fish to lizards to birds etc, they are all very different creatures. I find it much easier to believe in a Creator than to believe in evolution as it makes far more sense.

I don't think selective breeding is the same as evolution because selective breeding is manipulating genes etc to gain something that is beneficial to man but it doesn't mean that if he left the original untouched that it wouldn't be able to survive and continue to thrive albeit a smaller harvest perhaps (if it was a crop for example).

As for trying to convince someone who believes in evolution about your faith in God, I agree there is no point in arguing but its good to pray for them. The bible says that creation is clearly seen so that they are without excuse - see Romans 1:20.

Its good to explore these kind of subjects though as you need to know what you believe it you ever have a discussion with a non believer

 

[Assyrian]

Hi there!

I am not in any way going to approach Evolutionists directly with this, as they cannot be trusted to keep from trampling even the slightest pearl, but I was wondering, say you took Evolution seriously and you decided you wanted to take on the massive task of forcibly keeping selection pressures all over the Earth under control, what would happen?

I imagine that the difficulty of creating some kind of synergy, of the kind that God brought about, would be an almost impossible task and in fact, the only reason I do not say it would be completely impossible is that God did it! Actually Jesus says the things which are impossible with men are possible with God, so maybe Man controlling selection pressures across the entire world is actually impossible, precisely because he will always try to do it without God!

I don't know. I expect it may work in selected areas, say in food production. But then, we already had selective breeding, so Evolution is really just formalizing what we were trying to do anyway. Does that make it part of God's plan, do you think? I'm just wondering here. The benefit of course, is that when Man sees how difficult it is, he will give glory to God that it couldn't have happened without Him.

I guess the thing I am wondering is, how do you help someone who has that kind of goal? What do you offer? And how do you offer it in a way that leaves a window open for the faith? Just doing your job to the best of your ability seems to be part of it, since that shows your faith has works. I don't know. Certainly just arguing with them isn't going to help, heaping up evidence for God is slightly different to that, but not much. Any ideas?

Is there any reason for wanting to do this other than learning how difficult it would be? There are two factors you need to look at. Selection pressure comes when there are different forms of the same gene and there is is a selective advantage for one form rather than the other. The only way to have a constant selective pressure is for the pressure on both to be zero, both genes would have to be equally advantageous. You would also have to the same environment all over the earth because how advantageous a gene is depends on the environment. With the same (zero) selective pressure on all the genes, you will still some genes dying out and other taking over. This is because both parents have two copies of a gene, and which copy is passed on to a child is a matter of chance. Imagine a groups of two people with the same amount of money gambling by flipping a coin. Even without cheating you are going to one person losing all their money to the other simply by a run of bad luck, or to put it statistically, if you flip a coin often enough you will eventually get enough tails to clear you out. Genetically, the game is over when everyone has the same version of the gene of both chromosomes.

Then you have the issue of mutations every new generation is born with its own. Most are neutral so they fit your scenario already. You will miss out on the positive ones like the ability to digest lactose as adults or resistance to diseases. Your big problem is you need selective pressure to get rid of the bad ones either that or ensure there are no more deleterious mutations.

 

[Papias]

Selection pressures stay constant whenever the environment doesn't change much, and the population is large.

Forcibly keeping selection pressures constant would be the same as if they were just constant anyway, as they are in many large chunks of geologic time in many places. (all you need is a constant environment).

In fact, over all of earth's history, constant times are more common than rapidly changing times.

So the effect of forcibly keeping selection pressures constant is the same as what we often see: Evolutionary Stasis. Animals evolve to a certain point and then the constant environment gives a selection pressure for them to say mostly the same.

It's an "experiment" that's already been run and observed thousansands of times.


Evolution 101: The Big Issues

Papias

P.S. LottyH, your witness to unbelievers will benefit from learning about the topic of evolution. When we know little about a subject, and talk to unbelievers about it, we make both ourselves and the Gospel look ignorant. I know you've been told certain things, but you are ready now to learn on your own. Here is a place to start: www.talkorigins.org

 

[sfs]

P.S. LottyH, your witness to unbelievers will benefit from learning about the topic of evolution. When we know little about a subject, and talk to unbelievers about it, we make both ourselves and the Gospel look ignorant. I know you've been told certain things, but you are ready now to learn on your own. Here is a place to start: www.talkorigins.org

Possibly more user-friendly, and certainly more geared toward Christians: www.biologos.org.

 

[LottyH]

Phew! Had a feeling I was walking on unchartered, possibly firey territory.. I've looked at the first website which also has a link to a creationist response to fao's - sounds like you need a faith in whatever side you believe in.. But I'll have a look at biologos.org too. Thanks I'll leave now..

 

[Aman777]

Originally Posted by Papias

P.S. LottyH, your witness to unbelievers will benefit from learning about the topic of evolution.

Dear Lotty, I agree, since it will help protect you from their false assumptions, which are many.

Pap:>>When we know little about a subject, and talk to unbelievers about it, we make both ourselves and the Gospel look ignorant.

Be honest with unbelievers and if you run across a particularly mean Evol, tell him about the Scriptural Fact that today's scientists have NO idea when we changed from animal to human intelligence. In fact, they can't tell you the difference between animal and human intelligence TODAY.

Pap:>>I know you've been told certain things, but you are ready now to learn on your own. Here is a place to start: www.talkorigins.org

1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
​

TalkOrigins is a promotional site for the Evolutionism Religious view.

In Love,
Aman

 

[LottyH]

Thanks for your support Aman But I am glad for Papias comments because it has encouraged me to learn more about the debate on both sides.

 

[Papias]

LottyH:

Thanks! Remember that you can take your time - don't let anyone tell you that you have to have a hard answer by some artificial deadline. I hope you enjoy the discovery process. Some good books on the Christian evolution side are "Evolutionary Creationism" by Lamoureux, and "Finding Darwin's God" by Miller. On the creationism side, there are tons of books too. Through it all, remember to look to see who is an expert. A plumber who says there is no such thing as cancer is not a credible as an oncologist who says there is, for instance. You also might want to ask your minister and other ministers too.

sfs - yep, good point, thanks.

Aman - your post is a bunch of unsupported assertions, many of which are obviously false.

you wrote:

it will help protect you from their false assumptions, which are many.

Which assumptions are you claiming are false?

Fact that today's scientists have NO idea when we changed from animal to human intelligence.

Simply false - both neurologists and geneticists have a lot of understanding of that process.

In fact, they can't tell you the difference between animal and human intelligence TODAY.

False again - many measures can quantify that difference, and many aspects of chimp intelligence are much more like our than they are to, say, reptiles.

TalkOrigins is a promotional site for the Evolutionism Religious view.

Demonstrably false. TalkOrigins gives evidence for the view supported by the experts in their fields, many of whom are Christian, or Hindu, or Buddhist, or Jewish, or have no religion. If "evolutionism" was a religious view, then it's supporters would not be members of religions.

It's the same for those who support, say, the idea that the earth goes around the sun - some are Christian, or Hindu, or Buddhist, or Jewish, or have no religion.

Overall, Aman, if you like, you might want to focus on one of those and start a thread on it, instead of peppering you post with a string of unsupported statements that are all over the map.


Papias

 

[Aman777]

Pap:>>Aman - your post is a bunch of unsupported assertions, many of which are obviously false.

you wrote:

Aman:>>it will help protect you from their false assumptions, which are many.
Which assumptions are you claiming are false?

Aman:>>Fact that today's scientists have NO idea when we changed from animal to human intelligence.
​

Pap:>>Simply false - both neurologists and geneticists have a lot of understanding of that process.

Dear Papias, Then how do they explain the fact that we began to show traits of humans only 10k years ago, such as farming, homebuilding, city building, etc?

Aman:>>In fact, they can't tell you the difference between animal and human intelligence TODAY.

Pap:>>False again - many measures can quantify that difference, and many aspects of chimp intelligence are much more like our than they are to, say, reptiles.

Yes, about 98% of our genes are similar to Chimps. Correct? We also have reptillian parts of our brain. Correct? We are made of cells which cannot live without liquid water. Correct? IOW, We are all the same, but there is one thing which separates animals from humans.

Humans have inherited the Ability to know good and evil, which only Adam and God have. Gen. 3:22 What Science classifies as humans are actuallly the sons of God, whose origin was in the water on the 5th Day some 3.7 Billion years ago. These prehistoric people were NOT human because they did NOT inherit the unique human intelligence of Adam....UNTIL....some 10k years ago, when Noah's grandsons arrived and married some of the prehistoric people on this Planet. That's where Humans came from.

Aman:>>TalkOrigins is a promotional site for the Evolutionism Religious view.

Pap:>>Demonstrably false. TalkOrigins gives evidence for the view supported by the experts in their fields, many of whom are Christian, or Hindu, or Buddhist, or Jewish, or have no religion. If "evolutionism" was a religious view, then it's supporters would not be members of religions.
​

Evolution or changes in the allele frequency in a population over time, is God's Truth, which means it is true Scripturally, Scientifically, and Historically, but Evolutionism is a false belief that Science knows more than God. Such arrogance is demonstrated on TalkOrigins.

Pap:>>It's the same for those who support, say, the idea that the earth goes around the sun - some are Christian, or Hindu, or Buddhist, or Jewish, or have no religion.

Overall, Aman, if you like, you might want to focus on one of those and start a thread on it, instead of peppering you post with a string of unsupported statements that are all over the map.

As you are now aware. I didn't pepper my post with unsupported statments. I directed them with pinpoint accuracy.

In Love,
Aman

 

[Papias]

Aman wrote:

As you are now aware. I didn't pepper my post with unsupported statments. I directed them with pinpoint accuracy.

You only responded with even more unsupported and often false statements.

but there is one thing which separates animals from humans.

Humans have inherited the Ability to know good and evil, which only Adam and God have.

Another unsupported and false statement. Here, let me give you a clue. If you want to support a statement, provide a reference for it.
http://www.cnn.com/2013/01/19/health/chimpanzee-fairness-morality

Evolutionism is a false belief that Science knows more than God. Such arrogance is demonstrated on TalkOrigins.

Can you please show me on TalkOrigins where it says they know more than God knows (or even say what God knows) - or admit that this is more unsupported bluster from you?

Dear Papias, Then how do they explain the fact that we began to show traits of humans only 10k years ago, such as farming, homebuilding, city building, etc?

You seem unaware of the fact that human intelligence evolved gradually. For instance, some intelligence "human traits" like fire date back to before we were human. Homebuilding dates back much farther than 10,000 years (here are some 18,000 years ago http://www.columbia.edu/itc/anthropology/v1007/baryo.pdf), and farming was developed independently many times, in some places only as recently as 1,000 years ago or less, with others transitioning slowly to farming back around 15,000 years ago.


I suggest an anthropology course at a local university.

Yes, about 98% of our genes are similar to Chimps. Correct? We also have reptillian parts of our brain. Correct? We are made of cells which cannot live without liquid water. Correct?

yes, all correct.


Have a good day-

Papias

 

[Aman777]

Aman:>>Dear Papias, Then how do they explain the fact that we began to show traits of humans only 10k years ago, such as farming, homebuilding, city building, etc?
​

Pap:>>You seem unaware of the fact that human intelligence evolved gradually. For instance, some intelligence "human traits" like fire date back to before we were human. Homebuilding dates back much farther than 10,000 years (here are some 18,000 years ago http://www.columbia.edu/itc/anthropo...1007/baryo.pdf), and farming was developed independently many times, in some places only as recently as 1,000 years ago or less, with others transitioning slowly to farming back around 15,000 years ago.

Dear Pap, See if you can understand my question this way? Until some 10k years ago, there was no farming on this planet AFTER some 6 Million years of evolution after we diverged from the Chimps. Correct?

The first human farming is recorded in the Cradle of Civilization, Mesopotamia, the land between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers, which flow from the mountains of Ararat into the valleys of Northern Mesopotamia. The first human cities are listed in Genesis 10 and this agrees with the findings of Science, which considers that human civilization began in that area. City building, writing, math, and ALL other modern human traits had their origin just South of where Noah arrived on this Planet, exactly as God told us he did in Scripture.

Pap:>>I suggest an anthropology course at a local university.

Why? Look what it has done to you. Do you believe God or Science?

Aman:>>Yes, about 98% of our genes are similar to Chimps. Correct? We also have reptillian parts of our brain. Correct? We are made of cells which cannot live without liquid water. Correct?

Pap:>>yes, all correct.

All of that is shown in Scripture, and explained, in terms which can be understood by children. Can you tell us HOW any man of the time could have known these things?

Pap:>>Have a good day-

You too. The present 6th Creative Day has at least another 1k years before it ends, since Jesus will rule and reign here for that long. Rev 20:6

What do you suppose we will do during that time? Will we tame the Universe with our ability to travel instantly any where, anytime? There is plenty to look forward to at the end of the present 6th Day, when ALL the host of Heaven will finally be safely in Heaven. Don't you agree?

In Love,
Aman

 

[Papias]

Aman wrote:

Pap:>>

You seem unaware of the fact that human intelligence evolved gradually. For instance, some intelligence "human traits" like fire date back to before we were human. Homebuilding dates back much farther than 10,000 years (here are some 18,000 years ago http://www.columbia.edu/itc/anthropo...1007/baryo.pdf), and farming was developed independently many times, in some places only as recently as 1,000 years ago or less, with others transitioning slowly to farming back around 15,000 years ago.

Dear Pap, See if you can understand my question this way? Until some 10k years ago, there was no farming on this planet AFTER some 6 Million years of evolution after we diverged from the Chimps. Correct?

Aman, did you read my post? I pointed out that farming started sooner than 10K years ago, and more importantly, that it was gradual. Even 8,000 years ago, most humans around the globe did not farm. The evidence shows that humans in different areas developed farming independantly, with many only doing so in the last 1000 years - not at all consistent with your idea of an extraterrestrial Noah coming with agricultural knowledge. Did you see that I gave reference for my claims, which you still haven't done?

The first human farming is recorded in the Cradle of Civilization, Mesopotamia, the land between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers, which flow from the mountains of Ararat into the valleys of Northern Mesopotamia.

Plus, the oldest form of farming is the use of a forest garden, which appears to have originated in places like India, not the middle east.

The first human cities are listed in Genesis 10 and this agrees with the findings of Science, which considers that human civilization began in that area. City building, writing, math, and ALL other modern human traits had their origin just South of where Noah arrived on this Planet, exactly as God told us he did in Scripture.

Though the earliest cities were in the Middle East, cities developed independantly around the globe, and didn't "originate" in the Middle East. Again, the evidence doesn't support your statements. Trying to make Genesis claim that only makes Genesis turn out to be false, distracting from , and hurting our ability to proclaim the Gospel.

Do you believe God or Science?

All truth is God's truth. That's like asking if I'm related to my father or my mother - it's both, of course.

All of that is shown in Scripture, and explained, in terms which can be understood by children. Can you tell us HOW any man of the time could have known these things?

Making a claim like that opens us up to accepting similarly unsupported claims from other religions. The same arguments that we use to debunk claims like the ones made here: Science in The Qur'an - Evidence that Islam is true debunk the claim you made above. From a Christian standpoint, its much better to avoid that claim, otherwise we inadvertently confirm Islam, Hinduism, and so on. Plus, it's off-topic anyway (a Gish Gallop).

Papias

 

[Gottservant]

I don't want someone who collects scalps in his signature, in my thread, thanks Papias.

 

[Gottservant]

Is there any reason for wanting to do this other than learning how difficult it would be?

Yes, I still don't see the point either. My reasoning is that what man sets his mind to he sets it to for the whole world, so if man sets his mind to evolution, he sets his mind to "evolution" for the whole world. But what does this even mean? That's what I'm trying to work out.

I don't see the point, but I keep coming to the conclusion that that is exactly what man will try to do.

You would also have to [have] the same environment all over the earth because how advantageous a gene is depends on the environment.

It just seems ridiculous, doesn't it? Such a far cry from the simplicity of accepting that God created the universe and life is meaningful. They are already doing it piece by piece, experiment by experiment, but they can't possibly hope to achieve what God achieved, so it seems inevitable that man will either fail catastropically, oppress his fellow man ridiculously or both.

Your big problem is you need selective pressure to get rid of the bad ones either that or ensure there are no more deleterious mutations.

That's ultimately what they will start to push, I am sure, a world where every mutation has an antidote. To get there they will crush every independent spirit that they can find and say it is in the name "of science". Such a great pity!

At least we know whose side the Lord is on.

 

[Papias]

Gottservant wrote:

I don't want someone who collects scalps in his signature, in my thread, thanks Papias.

It's sad that a Christian would use a racist slur such as you did, especially toward someone like me with some Native American ancestry.

It's also sad that you would be embarrassed by the words of other creationists. They are not ashamed of what they say - are you?

Papias

 

[Assyrian]

Yes, I still don't see the point either. My reasoning is that what man sets his mind to he sets it to for the whole world, so if man sets his mind to evolution, he sets his mind to "evolution" for the whole world. But what does this even mean? That's what I'm trying to work out.

I don't see the point, but I keep coming to the conclusion that that is exactly what man will try to do.

Sounds a bit like what Maslow said "if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail". Some people get hung up on one idea and try to make everything fit. It isn't the fault of the hammer, which is a perfectly good tool which really does have a wide range of applications.

It just seems ridiculous, doesn't it? Such a far cry from the simplicity of accepting that God created the universe and life is meaningful. They are already doing it piece by piece, experiment by experiment, but they can't possibly hope to achieve what God achieved, so it seems inevitable that man will either fail catastropically, oppress his fellow man ridiculously or both.

Oppressing people is more the realm of politicians, either to the right or in communist countries, who want to make everybody fit their political agenda. You get it with the sort of religious people who want to use the law to impose their idea of the kingdom of God on everybody else, whether they share those religious views or not.

That's ultimately what they will start to push, I am sure, a world where every mutation has an antidote. To get there they will crush every independent spirit that they can find and say it is in the name "of science". Such a great pity!

I thought evolution showed us that genetic diversity was a good thing, even harmful mutations like sickle cell anaemia may bring resistance to diseases like malaria.

At least we know whose side the Lord is on.

The poor?

 

[Aman777]

Aman:>>Dear Pap, See if you can understand my question this way? Until some 10k years ago, there was no farming on this planet AFTER some 6 Million years of evolution after we diverged from the Chimps. Correct?

Papias:>>Aman, did you read my post? I pointed out that farming started sooner than 10K years ago, and more importantly, that it was gradual. Even 8,000 years ago, most humans around the globe did not farm. The evidence shows that humans in different areas developed farming independantly, with many only doing so in the last 1000 years - not at all consistent with your idea of an extraterrestrial Noah coming with agricultural knowledge. Did you see that I gave reference for my claims, which you still haven't done?

Dear Papias, History records the time when the first farmers arrived on this Planet. Below is a Map of the area in which they arrived. It was just south of the mountains of Ararat. It is empirical evidence of the arrival of human farmers on this planet. Dating is accomplished by dating the oldest human cities on this Earth, the ones listed in Genesis 10, and built by Noahs great grandsons.

Map: Fertile Cresent, 9000 to 4500 BCE Don't believe me? Then produce your evidence which shows that the first human farmers evolved long enough for them to realize that they should settle down and grow food to eat instead of chasing it all the time. Coincidence? Or did God tell us the Truth in Genesis?


Aman:>>The first human farming is recorded in the Cradle of Civilization, Mesopotamia, the land between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers, which flow from the mountains of Ararat into the valleys of Northern Mesopotamia.

Pap:>>Plus, the oldest form of farming is the use of a forest garden, which appears to have originated in places like India, not the middle east.

I am speaking of human farming and not some hangout of the local animals in the neighborhood. Please show us your citation.

Aman:>>The first human cities are listed in Genesis 10 and this agrees with the findings of Science, which considers that human civilization began in that area. City building, writing, math, and ALL other modern human traits had their origin just South of where Noah arrived on this Planet, exactly as God told us he did in Scripture.

Pap:>>Though the earliest cities were in the Middle East, cities developed independantly around the globe, and didn't "originate" in the Middle East. Again, the evidence doesn't support your statements. Trying to make Genesis claim that only makes Genesis turn out to be false, distracting from , and hurting our ability to proclaim the Gospel.

How does it hurt our ability to proclaim the Gospel of our Creator, Jesus Christ? It doesn't. It adds Truth about Him instead of preaching the traditiional view that doesn't even have Him show up until Bethlehem.

Aman:>>Do you believe God or Science?

Pap:>>All truth is God's truth. That's like asking if I'm related to my father or my mother - it's both, of course.

I agree. God's Truth IS the same Truth of Science and History. To argue that there is one Truth for one or the other is silly. There is but 1 Truth.

Aman:>>All of that is shown in Scripture, and explained, in terms which can be understood by children. Can you tell us HOW any man of the time could have known these things?
​

Pap:>>Making a claim like that opens us up to accepting similarly unsupported claims from other religions. The same arguments that we use to debunk claims like the ones made here: Science in The Qur'an - Evidence that Islam is true debunk the claim you made above. From a Christian standpoint, its much better to avoid that claim, otherwise we inadvertently confirm Islam, Hinduism, and so on. Plus, it's off-topic anyway (a Gish Gallop).

I don't accept the views of False Religions. I'm a Christian and I've always admired Billy Graham, who always preached the Gospel of Jesus Christ, whether in our country of any other. He didn't fight with any false religion, but stuck to his own Christian views which are supported by Scripture.

In Love,
Aman

 

[Papias]

Aman, to keep the sub-topics from getting confused with each other (since there are now several different claims about farming we are discussing), let's number them.

So,

1. Aman wrote:

Until some 10k years ago, there was no farming on this planet AFTER some 6 Million years of evolution after we diverged from the Chimps. Correct?

I pointed out that this is false (that there was farming before 10K, and provided a reference, which you seem to have not read.

2. And that more importantly, the gradual development of farming, discovered independently in several places around the globe isn not consistent with your extraterrestrial Noah idea.

Dear Papias, History records the time when the first farmers arrived on this Planet. Below is a Map of the area in which they arrived. It was just south of the mountains of Ararat. It is empirical evidence of the arrival of human farmers on this planet. Dating is accomplished by dating the oldest human cities on this Earth, the ones listed in Genesis 10, and built by Noahs great grandsons.

Map: Fertile Cresent, 9000 to 4500 BCE Don't believe me?

3. Aman, that map doesn't claim that farming appeared immediately, and in fact, the site it is on places it in the wider development from hunter-gatherer societies. So you tried to support your claim with a reference that supports my point, not yours. YOu can see this from the link you posted, because the bottom lists how the different farming technologies were invented gradually, not at all like people coming off a spaceship already knowing how to farm. In fact, your link doesn't even say that there was no farming before 9,000 BCE. That site is quite good, did you read the rest of it? Just click where it says "home" at the top.


4.

Then produce your evidence which shows that the first human farmers evolved long enough for them to realize that they should settle down and grow food to eat instead of chasing it all the time.

I could, but you already did so with your link above. It shows the consensus view of the experts - that farmin developed from hunter-gathering after humans evolved from non-human ancestors. I can provide more though, if the starting point you posted is not enough.

Coincidence? Or did God tell us the Truth in Genesis?

As we agreed earlier, all truth is God's truth. That means that the correct interpretation of Genesis matches our evolution from non-human ancestors and the invention of farming by those humans.


5.

Aman:>>

The first human farming is recorded in the Cradle of Civilization, Mesopotamia, the land between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers, which flow from the mountains of Ararat into the valleys of Northern Mesopotamia.

Pap:>>Plus, the oldest form of farming is the use of a forest garden, which appears to have originated in places like India, not the middle east.

I am speaking of human farming and not some hangout of the local animals in the neighborhood. Please show us your citation.

Sure, here is one: The forest farms of Kandy: and other gardens of complete design - Google Books



6.

Aman:>> City building, writing, math, and ALL other modern human traits had their origin just South of where Noah arrived on this Planet, exactly as God told us he did in Scripture.

As I've pointed out, many human traits (cities, writing, farming, etc.), developed independently in several different places, disproving any extraterrestrial single origin idea, in addition to the huge amount of evidence that humans evolved from non-human ancestors here on earth. That's already covered in other points above - let's leave this one to you saying where, in scripture, it says that Noah arrived from another planet.

How does it hurt our ability to proclaim the Gospel of our Creator, Jesus Christ? It doesn't. It adds Truth about Him instead of preaching the traditiional view that doesn't even have Him show up until Bethlehem.

Because as St. Augustine pointed out, when someone hears a Christian claiming the scriptures say things that they already know are false, they are less likely to believe other parts of scripture, like the Gospel.


All of that is shown in Scripture, and explained, in terms which can be understood by children. Can you tell us HOW any man of the time could have known these things?

Pap

:>>Making a claim like that opens us up to accepting similarly unsupported claims from other religions. The same arguments that we use to debunk claims like the ones made here: Science in The Qur'an - Evidence that Islam is true debunk the claim you made above. From a Christian standpoint, its much better to avoid that claim, otherwise we inadvertently confirm Islam, Hinduism, and so on. Plus, it's off-topic anyway (a Gish Gallop).

I don't accept the views of False Religions. I'm a Christian and I've always admired Billy Graham, who always preached the Gospel of Jesus Christ, whether in our country of any other. He didn't fight with any false religion, but stuck to his own Christian views which are supported by Scripture.

7. You just, again, "responded" by giving a list of unrelated statements, instead of answering the question - which was: How do you debunk the Qu'ran claims in the link above, which uses the same argument you use for science in your Bible?

Papias

 

[Aman777]

Papias:>>Aman, to keep the sub-topics from getting confused with each other (since there are now several different claims about farming we are discussing), let's number them.

So,

1. Aman wrote:

Until some 10k years ago, there was no farming on this planet AFTER some 6 Million years of evolution after we diverged from the Chimps. Correct?
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Papias:>>I pointed out that this is false (that there was farming before 10K, and provided a reference, which you seem to have not read.

Dear Papias, I"ve read them from all over the world. Supposedly, a great discovery is made and just needs funds to prove their ideas, SO, they come up with the oldest whatever in a search for the funds. The Cradle of Civilization is Mesopotamia.

Papias:>>2. And that more importantly, the gradual development of farming, discovered independently in several places around the globe isn not consistent with your extraterrestrial Noah idea.

The LORD scattered humankind over the face of the whole earth from Babel. Genesis 11:9

Aman:>>Dear Papias, History records the time when the first farmers arrived on this Planet. Below is a Map of the area in which they arrived. It was just south of the mountains of Ararat. It is empirical evidence of the arrival of human farmers on this planet. Dating is accomplished by dating the oldest human cities on this Earth, the ones listed in Genesis 10, and built by Noahs great grandsons.

Map: Fertile Cresent, 9000 to 4500 BCE Don't believe me?
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Papias:>>3. Aman, that map doesn't claim that farming appeared immediately, and in fact, the site it is on places it in the wider development from hunter-gatherer societies. So you tried to support your claim with a reference that supports my point, not yours. YOu can see this from the link you posted, because the bottom lists how the different farming technologies were invented gradually, not at all like people coming off a spaceship already knowing how to farm.

You're sarcasm is noted. Where did the Spaceship come from? Certainly not from me. Noah's grandsons lived for hundreds of years and so did his great grandsons.After some 6 Million years of evolution since splitting from our cousins the Chimps, we never grew ANYthing to eat, because we didn't have the intelligence level necessary, because we were NOT humans. Only the descendants of Adam are humans.

Papias:>>In fact, your link doesn't even say that there was no farming before 9,000 BCE. That site is quite good, did you read the rest of it? Just click where it says "home" at the top.

I've never read it before and had no idea that the person who drew the map of the fertile crescent was famous. That doesn't matter since the Map is an accurate indication of when and where the first human farmers arrived from the world of Adam, who farmed with NO evolution.





Aman:>>4. Then produce your evidence which shows that the first human farmers evolved long enough for them to realize that they should settle down and grow food to eat instead of chasing it all the time.

Papias:>>I could, but you already did so with your link above. It shows the consensus view of the experts - that farmin developed from hunter-gathering after humans evolved from non-human ancestors. I can provide more though, if the starting point you posted is not enough.

That's fine. I love to compare the secular truth with God's Truth which clearly shows us HOW prehistoric mankind evolved their Human intelligence. They inherited it from Adam. When the sons of God (Prehistoric man) married and produced offspring with one of Adam's descendants, a different kind of person is produced. One which has the DNA of Mitochondrial Eve AND the human intelligence of Adam, the first Human.

Aman:>>Coincidence? Or did God tell us the Truth in Genesis?
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Papias:>>As we agreed earlier, all truth is God's truth. That means that the correct interpretation of Genesis matches our evolution from non-human ancestors and the invention of farming by those humans.

No. It shows that Adam farmed with No evolution and Cain built a city. Cain's descendants had technology with little evolution. And also after that, on our Planet, farming began in the fertile crescent and was spread to the whole Earth exactly as the Lord told us in Genesis 11:9.

Aman:>> The first human farming is recorded in the Cradle of Civilization, Mesopotamia, the land between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers, which flow from the mountains of Ararat into the valleys of Northern Mesopotamia.

Pap:>>Plus, the oldest form of farming is the use of a forest garden, which appears to have originated in places like India, not the middle east.

Aman:>>I am speaking of human farming and not some hangout of the local animals in the neighborhood. Please show us your citation.
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Pap:>>Sure, here is one: The forest farms of Kandy: and other gardens of complete design - Google Books

6. Aman:>> City building, writing, math, and ALL other modern human traits had their origin just South of where Noah arrived on this Planet, exactly as God told us he did in Scripture.

Papias:>>As I've pointed out, many human traits (cities, writing, farming, etc.), developed independently in several different places, disproving any extraterrestrial single origin idea, in addition to the huge amount of evidence that humans evolved from non-human ancestors here on earth. That's already covered in other points above - let's leave this one to you saying where, in scripture, it says that Noah arrived from another planet.

God tells Noah that He is going to destroy the violent people "with the Earth". Gen. 6:13 God tells Noah that never again with He destroy the Earth with a Flood. Genesis 9:11 KJV - And I will establish my covenant with - Bible Gateway ll Peter 3:5 speaks of the world that THEN WAS, and 3.6 speaks of the heavens and earth WHICH ARE NOW. 2 Peter 2:5 tells us God "spared NOT the old world".

The dispute which will take place in the latter days is that the Scoffers are willingly ignorant of the Fact that the first world was totally destroyed in the Flood, and that our world will be burned. In fact, your view closely matches what the Scoffers of the last days are willingly ignorant of.


Aman:>>How does it hurt our ability to proclaim the Gospel of our Creator, Jesus Christ? It doesn't. It adds Truth about Him instead of preaching the traditiional view that doesn't even have Him show up until Bethlehem.

Papias:>>Because as St. Augustine pointed out, when someone hears a Christian claiming the scriptures say things that they already know are false, they are less likely to believe other parts of scripture, like the Gospel.

I've noticed that you haven't produced any evidence that I have done this, and mostly implied that I'm a UFO buff. Not so. Point out my errors scientifically, or historically, if you can. I don't think you can do it Scripturally.

Aman:><>All of that is shown in Scripture, and explained, in terms which can be understood by children. Can you tell us HOW any man of the time could have known these things?

Pap :>>Making a claim like that opens us up to accepting similarly unsupported claims from other religions. The same arguments that we use to debunk claims like the ones made here: Science in The Qur'an - Evidence that Islam is true debunk the claim you made above. From a Christian standpoint, its much better to avoid that claim, otherwise we inadvertently confirm Islam, Hinduism, and so on. Plus, it's off-topic anyway (a Gish Gallop).

Aman:>>I don't accept the views of False Religions. I'm a Christian and I've always admired Billy Graham, who always preached the Gospel of Jesus Christ, whether in our country of any other. He didn't fight with any false religion, but stuck to his own Christian views which are supported by Scripture.
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Pap:>>7. You just, again, "responded" by giving a list of unrelated statements, instead of answering the question - which was: How do you debunk the Qu'ran claims in the link above, which uses the same argument you use for science in your Bible?

I answered but you didn't like my answer. I told you that I don't accept the view of false religions. That's your answer. All the rest of your rant is revealing your frustration with not finding a weakness in my views.

Don't run away mad. I'm enjoying this.

In Love,
Aman