What to do with Rahab's lie?

[Misty Minister]

Sin (a lie) is sin. There are no levels of sin. IE: lying is not as big a sin as murder. It is all the same in the Lord's eyes

Please give us the reference in the Torah where Gd says telling any lie is a sin.

 

[Misty Minister]

I believe sin is sin. I don't know that we are necesarily meant to understand that. One thing to remember is that the laws of man have no bearing when they come in to conflicts with the commandments of God. Matthew 28:19 is an example of a commandment that trumps the laws of man. In that way bringing bibles into countries where they are not aloud is ok.

Gideon did not lie to anyone. He made a tactical move. He did not go up to the other guys and say we have 20000 men. They just got up to the hill and shouted and blew their trumpets. I do not mean to sound sarcastic

Where in the Torah does Gd say that all sins are equal?

 

[Misty Minister]

I don't think that's a good principle. God told us not to kill; He didn't say that we had to do everything in our power -- including lying -- to keep others from killing. Sure, we should do what we can to keep others from killing someone or something like that, but that doesn't mean that we should "do evil that good may come." You can have all the "principles" you want, but I don't think that makes any difference according to Scripture. See my previous posts.

The commandment is more properly understood as do not commit murder, that is the unlawful intentional taking of a human life.

 

[St. Worm2]

Again Lieing is not bearing false witness against a neighbor in this case.

Hi Misty, do you mean that for lying to be a sin it has to involve "bearing false witness against a neighbor"? What do we do with verses like:

"You shall not steal, nor deal falsely, nor lie to one another" (Leviticus 19:11)

Or perhaps even more important in this case, here is a passage where lying and bearing false witness are called "abominations" to the Lord ... separately from one another.

"
There are six things which the Lord hates, yes, seven which are an abomination to Him: Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that run rapidly to evil, a false witness who utters lies, and one who spreads strife among brothers." (Proverbs 6:16-19)

Whatja think? Am I missing something??

Yours and His,
David

 

[SolomonVII]

Jews themselves don't discern 10 commandments from the Torah. The number of commandments is something in the order of 613.... or maybe even more.

But for Christians what is important is slavishly following all of the Law of the Torah. What is primary importance- perhaps even of sole importance- is the intention of the heart, and aligning oneself with God will.
In fact, that is the main message of the Protestant Reformation, isn't it?

 

[plmarquette]

lie to the children of liars ... he lied from the first

tell truth to children of truth ....

not the issue .... she protected children of God , endangered herself by faith ,
accepted their words , by faith , stood her ground by faith , kept the secret as
the walls fell , by faith , and was saved by faith in the words of Joshua's men
and included in the blood line of Jesus ...

the truth is God picks people , ordinary people , weak , frail , and flawed
to do extraordinary things by faith ... despite their flaws ... as with david , solomon ,
rhahab , mary of magdela , peter , james , john ... thomas , jabez.... etc.

 

[SolomonVII]

lie to the children of liars ... he lied from the first

tell truth to children of truth ....

not the issue .... she protected children of God , endangered herself by faith ,
accepted their words , by faith , stood her ground by faith , kept the secret as
the walls fell , by faith , and was saved by faith in the words of Joshua's men
and included in the blood line of Jesus ...

the truth is God picks people , ordinary people , weak , frail , and flawed
to do extraordinary things by faith ... despite their flaws ... as with david , solomon ,
rhahab , mary of magdela , peter , james , john ... thomas , jabez.... etc.

I think that I have come across mainly in support of Rahab's actions on account of the fact that the biblical theme seems to strongly suggest that she was doing the will of God.
But I am curious about your first statement ie...lie to the children of liars...
Not that I disagree that this is wrong in the practical world of espionage, but what is your basis for saying this?

 

[onajourney87]

Not to dampen this interesting discussion of what is and isn't lieing....

Since Rahab was, indeed, a true believer at the time, how then do we defend her lies?

Who says we need to defend her lies? Was Rahab not a fallen, sinful human like all of us? Do we need to defend the sins of any other Christian?

osm

 

[rnmomof7]

Rahab like all of us was a sinner saved by grace..

We should all be joyful with the knowlege that this woman , a harlot and a liar is mentioned in the line of Christ.

The Jews did not normally list women in a linage.. yet she was listed..

What a savior, what a God !

 

[Sephania]

It seems clear that Rahab believed in the God of Israel (Joshua 2:8-11). She then demonstrated that fact (James 2:25) as she risked her own life to save the spies who had come to Jericho from Israel. Since Rahab was, indeed, a true believer at the time, how then do we defend her lies? Just because they are recorded in the Scriptures doesn't mean God approved of them, does it? Or does He approve of lying in certain cases? Is there a right time to lie and, if there is, how do we decide when it is appropriate to do so ..

Yours in Christ,
David

Not sure if this has been mentioned but in Judaism, Life comes first in everything, there are only a few things you can not do that would "break Torah" if it meant saving anothers life. It is an embodiment of Loving your neighbor, and that G-d created Man in his own image.

The lie she told was to save lives, and righteous lives as well. I think that G-d showed what he thought of her act of mercy and kindness, not thinking of her own skin but looking to save others, by making her part of the Messiah's liniage.

 

[TSIBHOD]

I think that G-d showed what he thought of her act of mercy and kindness, not thinking of her own skin but looking to save others, by making her part of the Messiah's liniage.

That Rahab was in Jesus' lineage does not give her credit, I think. It is more a show of God's grace and mercy that she should be honored so. She didn't do anything to earn it. No matter what good works she might have done (even apart from the many wicked works), all our righteousness is as filthy rags before Him. We can't do good things to get honor, but through faith, we can participate in God's plan. Faith accompanied by works is the only kind of real faith, no doubt, but what really matters is God's grace that allows it to happen. If someone is great in the kingdom of God, it is never about how they did this or that right thing and that makes them such a good person. There is only one good person--Christ, who can live in all of us. None of us without Him will ever be good, and none of us with Him will fail to become good as He lives through us.

 

[Sephania]

She had the fear of the L-RD the one true G-d, she believed, and that was her righteousness, are we not righteous when we believe in him? She made a declaration to them that she believed that Adonai was the G-d of Heaven and earth, which is the ultimate statement of faith from a heathen gentile back then.


In Hebrews it tells us that by her faith she and her family did not perish, but were saved.

James tells us that Rahab was justified by her "WORKS" of faith, for faith without works is dead, and so would she and her family have been, had she not put her faith into works to hide the spies.

 

[berb]

I'm surprised this is even being debated. I agree with TSIBHODon this matter. Doesn't the Bible say that the devil is the father of lies? When the Bible mentions those people lying it doesn't mean that God condoned it. I think it just shows us that God can use us no matter how fallen, it doesn't show that God approves of lying.