What the bible warns us about.

[THOU ART LOOSED]

We see in Second Corinthians that the false apostles did signs and wonders. Paul said they were being deceived by the angels of light. They were in their church. We see another thing the false brothers were doing. They were exploiting the church for money. They also dominated the church, and there were several of them. So my question is, are miracles the way to tell if they are from God? The Roman Catholic brothers and sisters have miracles also. They have bleeding statues, bleeding hands, and oil dripping from their hands too.

 

[JSGuitarist]

We see in Second Corinthians that the false apostles did signs and wonders. Paul said they were being deceived by the angels of light. They were in their church. We see another thing the false brothers were doing. They were exploiting the church for money. They also dominated the church, and there were several of them. So my question is, are miracles the way to tell if they are from God? The Roman Catholic brothers and sisters have miracles also. They have bleeding statues, bleeding hands, and oil dripping from their hands too.

I would say that if the individual doing the miracles is in line with other principles in the Bible, then yes. Taken apart from those same principles, no.

The way to do that in my opinion is to look at the miracle worker and ask if there is even a chance that God is working through that person, even though I see something in front of me that is outwardly impressive? 1 John gives different tests for knowing whether we are in the faith, and in part I think it is to help weed out false ministers. Part of the intention was to weed out the immoral gnostics who claimed to have special revelations about God and Christ all the while they lived filthy and immoral lives. The basis of 1 John is character alone, and each time one of these is missing, John indicates that the individual does not know God. Not that the man is perfect in these, but these should at least be reasonable descriptions of the life of that person.

In short, the tests:
1. Walks in the light as Christ did (which I take to mean godliness is his true priority)
2. Keeps God's commandments
3. Is separate from the world and does not love the world
4. Loves his brothers and does not hate
5. Does not continue to practice sin, and practices righteousness instead
6. Acknowledges Jesus as being Christ, with that acknowledgment being expressed through obedience

Notice John said nothing about miracles in relation to their state.

I would rather bring it first to the question, "Can we even reasonably assume the person is a believer"* before we start talking about the miracles he does. One whom you cannot say that these things are true about--his life is filled with hatred, lives in defiance of God's commands, entangled with the world, winks at sin and even scorns righteousness--there's a great chance that he does not know God, even if he claims to have incredible power (Simon Magus, Balaam). From there, you can make a conclusion about the miracles they do (or claim to do), or avoid discussion on them altogether. Even the devil will be able to call down fire from heaven, though none who could see through his masquerade of light would dare endorse him.

Miracles were said to have happened under the ministry of John Wesley. I am far more inclined to believe that the ones under his ministry were genuine because of the man's reputation for godliness. Some ministers claim miracles who have no real godliness; these, I am less inclined to believe.

*I am NOT saying to draw a precise conclusion on his salvific state; I am saying to ask if we we have sufficient reason to believe that he is in good state; is it likely, or doubtful?

 

[THOU ART LOOSED]

Good post. The false apostles had other telltale signs. They boasted of visions, where Paul did not, just like we see in Colossians chapter two. They exalted themselves, and patted each other on the back. They were a clique. They had an air of superiority while they introduced another Jesus. What I think is important to see, is that they confessed Christ, while doing all this. They were the "super apostles". Sounds just like what we hear today.

 

[Spirit Compass]

We see in Second Corinthians that the false apostles did signs and wonders. Paul said they were being deceived by the angels of light. They were in their church. We see another thing the false brothers were doing. They were exploiting the church for money. They also dominated the church, and there were several of them. So my question is, are miracles the way to tell if they are from God? The Roman Catholic brothers and sisters have miracles also. They have bleeding statues, bleeding hands, and oil dripping from their hands too.

Exploiting the church for money is the Kingdom of the Egoist Christian Proclamator. The light of the gospel is preached, which makes them angels of light. Love of money is the root of their evil. They like limousine rides and air travel to exotic locations where they own condos subsidized by the believers who reward their annoninting. They live lavish lives of pleasure to prove that God wants his people to experience prosperity. They speak the truth in their proclamations about Jesus. Yet, Jesus himself said that he would disavow them on Judgement Day [Matthew Chapter 25, vs. 31-46]

To them, Jesus will speak to those he has sorted to his left hand, "Go away from me, you cursed, to the everlasting fire which is prepared for the adversary and his angels;
--For I was hungry and you did not give me food.
--I was thirsty and you did not give me drink.
--I was a stranger and you did not take me in.
--I was naked and you did not clothe me.
--I was sick and you did not visit me."

Then they also will answer and say, "Our Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in the prison, and did not minister to thee?' Then he will answer and say to them, "Truly I say to you, insasmuch as you did not do it to one of these least ones, you also did not do it to me."

 

[THOU ART LOOSED]

Exploiting the church for money is the Kingdom of the Egoist Christian Proclamator. The light of the gospel is preached, which makes them angels of light. Love of money is the root of their evil. They like limousine rides and air travel to exotic locations where they own condos subsidized by the believers who reward their annoninting. They live lavish lives of pleasure to prove that God wants his people to experience prosperity. They speak the truth in their proclamations about Jesus. Yet, Jesus himself said that he would disavow them on Judgement Day [Matthew Chapter 25, vs. 31-46]

To them, Jesus will speak to those he has sorted to his left hand, "Go away from me, you cursed, to the everlasting fire which is prepared for the adversary and his angels;
--For I was hungry and you did not give me food.
--I was thirsty and you did not give me drink.
--I was a stranger and you did not take me in.
--I was naked and you did not clothe me.
--I was sick and you did not visit me."

Then they also will answer and say, "Our Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in the prison, and did not minister to thee?' Then he will answer and say to them, "Truly I say to you, insasmuch as you did not do it to one of these least ones, you also did not do it to me."

100% right! Too many running around sponging money. Jesus and Paul were examples for us to follow, and both taught about giving not getting. Jesus and Paul worked and gave all, no to mention Barnabas and Titus too.

 

[enoch son]

What if these so called change the words in the book from what was written to something that match thier doctrine? I for one see that as the greater error. for Jesus call the others a adultess generation not because of the act of the events but because they seek the event and not the christ.

 

[Lively Stone]

We see in Second Corinthians that the false apostles did signs and wonders. Paul said they were being deceived by the angels of light. They were in their church. We see another thing the false brothers were doing. They were exploiting the church for money. They also dominated the church, and there were several of them. So my question is, are miracles the way to tell if they are from God? The Roman Catholic brothers and sisters have miracles also. They have bleeding statues, bleeding hands, and oil dripping from their hands too.

Not necessarily. It is their fruit and their love that reveals whose they are.

 

[Bladers]

Good post. The false apostles had other telltale signs. They boasted of visions, where Paul did not, just like we see in Colossians chapter two. They exalted themselves, and patted each other on the back. They were a clique. They had an air of superiority while they introduced another Jesus. What I think is important to see, is that they confessed Christ, while doing all this. They were the "super apostles". Sounds just like what we hear today.

Such agenda, it baffles me.
Just tell us what you want to say and get it out of the way.

 

[Bladers]

We see in Second Corinthians that the false apostles did signs and wonders. Paul said they were being deceived by the angels of light. They were in their church. We see another thing the false brothers were doing. They were exploiting the church for money. They also dominated the church, and there were several of them. So my question is, are miracles the way to tell if they are from God? The Roman Catholic brothers and sisters have miracles also. They have bleeding statues, bleeding hands, and oil dripping from their hands too.

Where in Second Corinthians were false prophets doing signs and wonders?

Second, Where did paul say they were deceived by angel of light?

Third, Miracles are not the way to tell if a preacher is from God. But you already know that with your agenda driven thread.

But nevertheless.

Jesus said: By their fruits.
John said: If spirit behind them confesses Jesus to be the Son of God (Their preaching)

 

[disciple-ofjesus]

Where in Second Corinthians were false prophets doing signs and wonders?

Second, Where did paul say they were deceived by angel of light?

Third, Miracles are not the way to tell if a preacher is from God. But you already know that with your agenda driven thread.

But nevertheless.

Jesus said: By their fruits.
John said: If spirit behind them confesses Jesus to be the Son of God (Their preaching)

AMEN! This is one reason I stopped conversing with this person. The word is clear, as you said, that if a person confesses Jesus came in the flesh, they are Christians.

 

[Redheadedstepchild]

Mod Hat On

Thread has been cleaned.

Mod Hat Off

 

[Rose_bud]

AMEN! This is one reason I stopped conversing with this person. The word is clear, as you said, that if a person confesses Jesus came in the flesh, they are Christians.

Hi disciple-ofjesus

Confession alone does not make you a Christian (even demons know who He is).. but it is those who do the will of the God, these are Christs

Luke 4:
33In the synagogue there was a man possessed by a demon, an evil[a]spirit. He cried out at the top of his voice, 34"Ha! What do you want with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are—the Holy One of God!

Mark 3
35For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

 

[disciple-ofjesus]

Hi disciple-ofjesus

Confession alone does not make you a Christian (even demons know who He is).. but it is those who do the will of the God, these are Christs

Luke 4:
33In the synagogue there was a man possessed by a demon, an evil[a]spirit. He cried out at the top of his voice, 34"Ha! What do you want with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are—the Holy One of God!

Mark 3
35For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

agreed. why would you think differently?

 

[Rose_bud]

agreed. why would you think differently?

There's a difference between being a confessing Christian(along with signs and miracles), and a Christian that does the will of God...

I think thats what the original OP was trying to bring across IMO

I hope someone can correct me if I misunderstood this

 

[disciple-ofjesus]

By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, 1 John 4:2

This is how we know if someone is of the Lord or not.

 

[disciple-ofjesus]

Yep, there are plenty of people walking around saying they are Christian, when in fact, they can't confess with their mouth that Jesus came in the flesh. It isn't necessarily "doing" His will that makes a person a Christian either. LOTS of people walking around doing works that look good...doesn't mean a thing.

 

[Rose_bud]

Yep, there are plenty of people walking around saying they are Christian, when in fact, they can't confess with their mouth that Jesus came in the flesh. It isn't necessarily "doing" His will that makes a person a Christian either. LOTS of people walking around doing works that look good...doesn't mean a thing.

Yip, but "Doing" the will of God , is not just about doing good works, but about keeping the commandments of Christ...

 

[disciple-ofjesus]

Yip, but "Doing" the will of God , is not just about doing good works, but about keeping the commandments of Christ...

The only 2 commands that Jesus gave, was to love Him with all hour hearts mind soul and strength, and our neighbor as ourself. ALL other stuff is works of the flesh that amount to nothing.

 

[bugkiller]

I would say that if the individual doing the miracles is in line with other principles in the Bible, then yes. Taken apart from those same principles, no.

The way to do that in my opinion is to look at the miracle worker and ask if there is even a chance that God is working through that person, even though I see something in front of me that is outwardly impressive? 1 John gives different tests for knowing whether we are in the faith, and in part I think it is to help weed out false ministers. Part of the intention was to weed out the immoral gnostics who claimed to have special revelations about God and Christ all the while they lived filthy and immoral lives. The basis of 1 John is character alone, and each time one of these is missing, John indicates that the individual does not know God. Not that the man is perfect in these, but these should at least be reasonable descriptions of the life of that person.

In short, the tests:
1. Walks in the light as Christ did (which I take to mean godliness is his true priority)
2. Keeps God's commandments
3. Is separate from the world and does not love the world
4. Loves his brothers and does not hate
5. Does not continue to practice sin, and practices righteousness instead
6. Acknowledges Jesus as being Christ, with that acknowledgment being expressed through obedience

Notice John said nothing about miracles in relation to their state.

I would rather bring it first to the question, "Can we even reasonably assume the person is a believer"* before we start talking about the miracles he does. One whom you cannot say that these things are true about--his life is filled with hatred, lives in defiance of God's commands, entangled with the world, winks at sin and even scorns righteousness--there's a great chance that he does not know God, even if he claims to have incredible power (Simon Magus, Balaam). From there, you can make a conclusion about the miracles they do (or claim to do), or avoid discussion on them altogether. Even the devil will be able to call down fire from heaven, though none who could see through his masquerade of light would dare endorse him.

Miracles were said to have happened under the ministry of John Wesley. I am far more inclined to believe that the ones under his ministry were genuine because of the man's reputation for godliness. Some ministers claim miracles who have no real godliness; these, I am less inclined to believe.

*I am NOT saying to draw a precise conclusion on his salvific state; I am saying to ask if we we have sufficient reason to believe that he is in good state; is it likely, or doubtful?

Seems to me that you have disquailfied every single miricale worker of our present day.

bugkiller

 

[Simon_Templar]

1st and 2nd Corinthians were written by Paul in response to letters he received from the Corinthian Church telling him of troubles the Church was experiencing and asking for his direction.

There was division in the Corinthian Church and they were essentially asking Paul to step in and arbitrate. The letters to Paul have no survived, but Paul does quote from them in his responses.

One such example is the section where it says "all things are lawful for me..." This is actually what one of the Corinthian factions wrote to Paul to justify their practices. Paul's response is basically 'even if all things are lawful, not all things are profitable... so even if it is lawful (which is not really the issue) its still not good for you'.

The predominant problem in the Corinthian Church was spiritual pride. (my own analysis based on what Paul writes). The different factions in the Church were claiming to be super spiritual and mature because they exercised various gifts of the Spirit, like speaking in tongues.
They were being disruptive and eventually destructive the Church as a whole because they were trying to make the whole thing about them and how spiritual they were.

This was also playing out in the communion service where some of the factions were basically eating all of the communion and not leaving any for the others. They didn't recognize that communion is about the unity of the body as well as our unity with Christ.

Paul makes it clear to the Corinthians that it doesn't matter if you are super spiritual, if you do all sorts of amazing things... what really matters is love, and the building up of the Church. He makes the point that the gifts of the Spirit are not given for individuals, but for the building up of the body. If they serve only to glorify some person, or to be a sign of some individual's spiritually advanced state... then they are useless.

In second Corinthians he also deals with teachings on the resurrection because there were bad teachings infiltrating the Corinthian Church about the future resurrection as well. That's probably another topic though.