What makes you the expert?

[alexiscurious]

Most Christians like to use the point that the complexity of the world points to a creator and that our existence can't pop out of nowhere. This to me does seem more believable than anything else I've heard...

But I'm just curious, what makes you the expert on what causes things to exist? If I recall correctly, this is both our first time ever existing. How can you declare with such certainty that the universe demands a creator? Isn't this nothing more then an opinion?

 

[oi_antz]

Most Christians like to use the point that the complexity of the world points to a creator and that our existence can't pop out of nowhere. This to me does seem more believable than anything else I've heard...

But I'm just curious, what makes you the expert on what causes things to exist? If I recall correctly, this is both our first time ever existing. How can you declare with such certainty that the universe demands a creator? Isn't this nothing more then an opinion?

Everything is an opinion. Some opinions are consistent with the truth, some are not. With topics concerning God, everyone forms their opinion based on their rationalization of information. For instance, you mentioned St Paul on the other thread, whose opinion changed when he received new information. When he received that information (the memory of an experience), he had to decide how to rationalize it. It challenged his existing opinion, but he chose to change his opinion as he attempted to rationalize the information. He must have decided this against personal desire for self esteem and social status. i can imagine how his reputation and history would have been considered.

So, everyone who forms such opinions is likewise rationalizing information compared to reputation and established comfort of opinion. Paul is an example where God approached him and challenged his opinion. I am an example where I approached God and challenged Him to change my opinion. Some people just form their opinion and stick to it even despite information that challenges the reliability of their opinion as truth.

So, I have not yet faced information that causes my opinion that God did create the universe to be seriously questioned. I would be very surprised if it was possible for that to happen. Likewise, it would be very surprising if such information was available that caused everyone to be convinced that He did.

Nevertheless, there is a lot of information about God's involvement with humanity, in which we are led to assume He is the absolute source of life, who has power over death. That is essentially what Christianity is about: Jesus Christ's resurrection, and the promise that He will resurrect His people to everlasting life. So, since this is claimed as fact, and the history of the facts suggests it is true, how (and perhaps, why) can one be of the opinion today, that it is not true?

 

[ebia]

Most Christians like to use the point that the complexity of the world points to a creator and that our existence can't pop out of nowhere. This to me does seem more believable than anything else I've heard...

But I'm just curious, what makes you the expert on what causes things to exist? If I recall correctly, this is both our first time ever existing. How can you declare with such certainty that the universe demands a creator? Isn't this nothing more then an opinion?

Yep

 

[lesliedellow]

Most Christians like to use the point that the complexity of the world points to a creator and that our existence can't pop out of nowhere. This to me does seem more believable than anything else I've heard...

But I'm just curious, what makes you the expert on what causes things to exist? If I recall correctly, this is both our first time ever existing. How can you declare with such certainty that the universe demands a creator? Isn't this nothing more then an opinion?

There are about 50 trillion cells in the human body, and each of them has the complexity of a small city What is more, they are not thrown together any old how; they instead constitute a funtioning organism.

In any of the other phisical sciences, the idea that slomething like that could arkise by chance would be ridiculed.. Normally the more complex something becomes, the more likely it is to collapse back into chaos, because the more there is to go wrong. Biology seems to have wlon itelf a special exemption.

That does not mean that evolution didn't happen, but the idea that natural selection is a sufficient explanation stretches credulity beyond breaking lpoint.

 

[Joshua260]

Most Christians like to use the point that the complexity of the world points to a creator and that our existence can't pop out of nowhere. This to me does seem more believable than anything else I've heard...

But I'm just curious, what makes you the expert on what causes things to exist? If I recall correctly, this is both our first time ever existing. How can you declare with such certainty that the universe demands a creator? Isn't this nothing more then an opinion?

As I've stated elsewhere, my assurance comes from the witness of the Holy Spirit. But as unsaved folks do not have the Holy Spirit to rely on, I typically refer them to various Philosophical arguments and/or Christian evidences to help them come to see that it is rational for one to believe in the truth of Christianity.

I believe the two arguments you refer to are the Kalam Cosmological Argument (KCA) and the Teleological Argument.

The KCA reads:
1) Whatever begins to exist has a cause.
2) The Universe began to exist.
3) Therefore, the universe has a cause.

Some of the consequences of this argument are that the universe's cause must be timeless, immaterial, unimaginably powerful, and even personal. Many of the same traits used to describe the god of the bible.

I've unpacked the KCA premises before with you, so I won't this time.

The Teleological Argument reads:
1) The fine-tuning of the universe is due to either physical necessity, chance, or design.
2) It is not due to physical necessity or chance.
3) Therefore, it is due to design.

IRT the Teleological Argument:
For premise one, the fact that the universe seems to be fine tuned for life is widely accepted, and there only seem to be three possible causes.

For premise two, it is certainly possible that a non-life permitting could exist and it also turns out that it is faaarrrrr more probable for a non-life permitting universe to exist rather than a life-permitting one. So both necessity and chance appear to be unlikely candidates for the fine-tuning.

The conclusion logically follows from the premises and it appears that the only cause left to consider is design.

So when I offer these arguments to you for consideration, I am suggesting to you that the conclusions are more probable than not. Hopefully, these types of arguments will lead you to consider our claims for God's existence more seriously.

 

[food4thought]

Most Christians like to use the point that the complexity of the world points to a creator and that our existence can't pop out of nowhere. This to me does seem more believable than anything else I've heard...

But I'm just curious, what makes you the expert on what causes things to exist? If I recall correctly, this is both our first time ever existing. How can you declare with such certainty that the universe demands a creator? Isn't this nothing more then an opinion?

If I were an expert, and I claimed that the universe just popped into existence and that life inevitably arises from non-life, does that change anything at all about what the truth of the matter is? What is an expert? Someone who has read a bunch and maybe even done some research into a specific topic, right? However, the reliability of the expert is directly related to the reliability of what he has learned and his ability to rightly implement a study and correctly understand the implications of it's results. We who are not experts must have faith that this expert has only believed the books/teachers that give him accurate information, and that he has made no mistakes in the design, implementation, and/or interpretation of his research. I simply do not have faith in the reliability of human knowledge, which you also indicated previously.

All of the sum of scientific knowledge is acquired by flawed men working with flawed assumptions, potentially flawed research methods, and a limited ability to correctly understand the results of those studies. The scientific method is a useful tool for many things, but it falls far short of reliably determining the truth for all things, particularly for things in the distant past and things that we are not currently capable of directly observing... and it will always be subject to the flaws of mankind.

The Bible claims to be a series of books written by men who were uniquely inspired by an intelligent Being far above and beyond themselves. The Bible demonstrates it's own uniqueness and authority by predicting future events with specificity and accuracy, thus showing that it was not simply written by flawed humans, but is truly inspired by "something" greater. The Bible claims that this "intelligence" created the universe (including us). The Bible records many events, quite a few of which we can verify as fitting what we think we know about history. One of these events is the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth, whom the Bible declares to be the human incarnation of this Supreme Being. What we think we know of history strongly supports the historical reality of the resurrection.

If you are looking for absolute certainty, you are going to be disappointed because you are human, and flawed, and unable to determine anything (except, perhaps, your own existence) with absolute certainty. I think that the complexity of the universe and everything in it strongly suggests a Creator. The Bible gives us strong evidence in support of this idea, and there is quit a bit of surprising scientific foreknowledge implied within it, yet some science appears, at least for the time being, to contradict some of what we understand the Bible to say (but again, can we be certain we are correctly interpreting the Bible, since we are limited and flawed beings?).

What this boils down to, then, is whether you are going to place your faith in the knowledge of flawed beings like yourself, or in the claims of a Being who is demonstrably far above and beyond humanity. Whom do you trust to be right? Whom would you think is more likely to consistently be worthy of our trust? Judging by history, is man intrinsically good, or do we have a problem within our human nature that constantly bends us towards selfishness, injustice, oppression, war, and falsehoods of every kind (both deliberate deceit and otherwise)? What does history tell us about the reliability of human knowledge, particularly when there is money and power at stake?


And the kicker... as the Band Rush so eloquently said: "If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice." To withhold your trust is to reject Him.

 

[TheyCallMeDavid]

Most Christians like to use the point that the complexity of the world points to a creator and that our existence can't pop out of nowhere. This to me does seem more believable than anything else I've heard...

But I'm just curious, what makes you the expert on what causes things to exist? If I recall correctly, this is both our first time ever existing. How can you declare with such certainty that the universe demands a creator? Isn't this nothing more then an opinion?

No, its not based on opinion but rather, reality of what we have. Consider :

When we examine what we do have by way of effects from the Creation event (our reality today) , we can get a very accurate idea of what the First Cause had to be ; The First Cause must be self existent, timeless, nonspatial, immaterial since the First Cause created time, space, and matter and he is without limits and is infinite . The first cause of anything that becomes finite, must be infinite or outside of what is created much like a Painter is to his Painting. The First Cause would have to unimaginably powerful to create the entire Universe out of nothing and supremely intelligent to design the Universe with incredible precision . The Cause would have to be personal in order to choose to convert a state of nothingness into the time-space-material universe, for, an impersonal force has no ability to make choices. These characteristics of the First Cause are exactly the characteristics ascribe to God and they are NOT someones religion or subjective experience...rather they are drawn from the scientific evidence which IS our reality .


So, its impossible that there isn't a personal theistic Creator based on what we have as effects. Heres a very brief rundown of the alternative to God NOT existing :

1. Non material entities such as our personality, consciousness, will, emotions, love, reasoning, logic, and abstract thinking....all derived from materials such as rocks/dirt/planets/and hydrogen gas (atoms) .

2. A Universe which has a great many examples of intelligent intervention, came from Nothing by Nothing for no reason whatsoever.

3. Informational messages as found in the specified complexity of the DNA Molecule which tells a cell how to form and how micro biological systems are to be constructed...came from Nothing. They just popped into existence from nothing then proceeded to be a blue print and Builder of a complex Cell so busy and intricate that its been related to the infrastructure of a major U.S. City by Biologists (atheist and non atheist alike) .

4. There isnt a shred of purpose or reason to this life ...even though we as Human Beings contradict that every day of our live by how we live.

5. We are just a little above the animals of the Forest in value and dignity., and essentially are on the same order of importance as an earth worm.

6. Everything is purely accidental including morals and ethics...and it is silly to hold to such in any form and to any level. There is nothing that is absolutely and objectively wrong therefore...and it doesnt even make sense calling the extermination of 6 million Jews and Christians in Nazi Germany 'wrong' , for it is just opinion to do so if morals are accidental and there is no higher objective Moral Law Provider (God) .In fact, there is no objective reason for Mother Theresa being 'better' than Stalin or HItler.

7. Everything is utterly futile by placing any value on it, for, nothing in an accidental Universe could have any deliberate value. Therefore, we have no intrinsic value ...and we are no different than the Bird in the tree who struggles to survive in a valueLESS reality. A human baby we see arrive into the world is completely void of any value whatsoever and if it dies there should be absolutely no anquish or sorrow shed. In a futile world, there is no room for regret .

I could on..but suffice it to say that carried to the end....belief in No God (atheism) is THE most illogical unreasonable and devastating to society faith-based Religion ever to be devised by Man.

 

[aiki]

What makes you the expert?

Most Christians like to use the point that the complexity of the world points to a creator and that our existence can't pop out of nowhere. This to me does seem more believable than anything else I've heard...

But I'm just curious, what makes you the expert on what causes things to exist? If I recall correctly, this is both our first time ever existing. How can you declare with such certainty that the universe demands a creator? Isn't this nothing more then an opinion?

No, it is the conclusion of deductive reasoning. Is a conclusion from deductive reasoning mere opinion? I don't think so. Opinions are typically subjective; they are dependent upon a subject (like you or me) for their existence. But reason and logic are objective things. They are not dependent upon a subject for their being. Used correctly, logical argument can produce conclusions that are also objectively true. That is, the conclusion is true whether anyone agrees it is or not, or even knows about it. For example, if Bobby jumps off a high cliff without a safe means of descent, he will be killed by the eventual impact with the ground. This is not mere opinion, but the objective truth of the matter. Whether Bobby believes it or not, if he jumps off the high cliff, he will soon meet a crushing, fatal end.

My belief in God is not mere opinion. I have good rational argument in support of my belief. The Kalam Cosmological Argument, for instance. Or Liebniz's Argument from Contingency. Or the Moral Argument. Or the many Teleological arguments. All of these employ objective means of deducing the nature of the universe and, superficially, the nature of God.

Selah.

 

[TheyCallMeDavid]

No, it is the conclusion of deductive reasoning. Is a conclusion from deductive reasoning mere opinion? I don't think so. Opinions are typically subjective; they are dependent upon a subject (like you or me) for their existence. But reason and logic are objective things. They are not dependent upon a subject for their being. Used correctly, logical argument can produce conclusions that are also objectively true. That is, the conclusion is true whether anyone agrees it is or not, or even knows about it. For example, if Bobby jumps off a high cliff without a safe means of descent, he will be killed by the eventual impact with the ground. This is not mere opinion, but the objective truth of the matter. Whether Bobby believes it or not, if he jumps off the high cliff, he will soon meet a crushing, fatal end.

My belief in God is not mere opinion. I have good rational argument in support of my belief. The Kalam Cosmological Argument, for instance. Or Liebniz's Argument from Contingency. Or the Moral Argument. Or the many Teleological arguments. All of these employ objective means of deducing the nature of the universe and, superficially, the nature of God.

Selah.

Well said.

 

[Job8]

How can you declare with such certainty that the universe demands a creator? Isn't this nothing more then an opinion?

It is not just Christians who arrive at the conclusion that the universe demands a Creator.

You can arrive at this conclusion yourself by a simple experiment. Take any living thing in nature which exists, and examine it closely. Is there a pattern? Is there a design? Is there intricacy? Is there complexity? Is there mathematics involved? Is there beauty? Is there organization?

Look at the bees and see what they do and how they behave. Can this be by accident or is it by design? Look at the beehive. Is there a definite pattern and composition which never varies? How could a creature like the bee have such instincts?

If you are honest with yourself, you will be compelled to acknowledge the existence of the Creator. Christians can go one step further and say with confidence that their Creator is also the Savior who died on the cross for their sins, and rose again for their justification, and has given them the gift of eternal life. The Creator is the God who gave us the Bible so that we could know Him as our Savior.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

But I'm just curious, what makes you the expert on what causes things to exist? If I recall correctly, this is both our first time ever existing. How can you declare with such certainty that the universe demands a creator? Isn't this nothing more then an opinion?

So a curious agnostic searches for an EXPERT to provide proof. A favorite movie line of mine: "If there is any doubt, there is no doubt". What this means is trust your instincts. Your instincts say there is a god. Your conscious asks for proof. You can't reconcile these opposing forces. You shift the burden of proof on another.

You think to be at your disposition because no one has proven the existence of God to your satisfaction. Herein lies the trap for all that reason with you. It is because you have rejected God, proof provided in all things created, that you persist in a conflicted mind.

No person can provide proof, only God can with you acknowledging his perfect creation.
No person can provide faith, only God. And this is the path to salvation if you care to be a member of the future perfect world.


If you are curious than follow your instincts. Your spirit lies there.

I am sorry if this sounds harsh, but it is what God's word says. People who reject God are without excuse.

Romans 1:18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

 

[parsley]

Creation is a topic that leaves the mind wondering. If not creation, then how did microbes form that eventually led to larger organisms? There are too many unknowns.

Demographic studies show roughly 6/7 people in the world believe in a Supreme Being. That is a high number of people who conclude (formally) that the universe needed some sort of intelligence to develop to this state.

If not an intelligent Being, then what? Where did all the rocks come from... if expansion from explosion, then what caused the explosion. Such a conundrum.

 

[alexiscurious]

So a few people said that this is only an opinion and strongly suggests a creator and a few others said it was the objective truth. Ok...

 

[oi_antz]

So a few people said that this is only an opinion and strongly suggests a creator and a few others said it was the objective truth. Ok...

It is more about belief than opinion, though there is not much difference there really. People form beliefs based on part due to their desires. Therefore, humans do form beliefs that aren't true, and then those beliefs govern the way they live/the opinions they are willing to form etc.

 

[alexiscurious]

What this boils down to, then, is whether you are going to place your faith in the knowledge of flawed beings like yourself, or in the claims of a Being who is demonstrably far above and beyond humanity. Whom do you trust to be right? Whom would you think is more likely to consistently be worthy of our trust? Judging by history, is man intrinsically good, or do we have a problem within our human nature that constantly bends us towards selfishness, injustice, oppression, war, and falsehoods of every kind (both deliberate deceit and otherwise)? What does history tell us about the reliability of human knowledge, particularly when there is money and power at stake?

I have already proven in other threads that in order place your faith in God you have to put your faith in man as well. So really the question you are asking me is: What this boils down to, then, is whether you are going to place your faith in the knowledge of flawed beings like yourself, or in the knowledge of flawed beings like yourself. Stupid question???

Link to threads: http://www.christianforums.com/t7853330
http://www.christianforums.com/t7848909/

You are quite right, though, that we must place some trust in the quality of the "transmitters" of God's Word. The New Testament writers were carefully vetted by the apostles and the Early Church community. Really, it was the Early Christian community that largely determined which books were canonical and which were not. In light of this and the superintendency of God over the affairs of His Word, I have great confidence that the contents of the New Testament have not been fouled by its writers. God would not be much of a God if He could not preserve His Word from corruption and error.

 

[TheyCallMeDavid]

Most Christians like to use the point that the complexity of the world points to a creator and that our existence can't pop out of nowhere. This to me does seem more believable than anything else I've heard...

But I'm just curious, what makes you the expert on what causes things to exist? If I recall correctly, this is both our first time ever existing. How can you declare with such certainty that the universe demands a creator? Isn't this nothing more then an opinion?

It doesn't require 'an expert' to see that this universe of ours which has personal, intelligent, information-laden entities to it ... can only come from a like First Source having a Will and incredible abilities. Creation is so evident for a personal Creator existing that it is inherent to every human being.

Now, if there truly IS a personal Creator then we should have many things which modern science can discover and measure to confirm this statement to be true. As for fine tuning of our universe so we can be here, please consider just 5 out of over 150 extremely narrow fine tuned Parameters which Science has discovered and measured to and enormous accurate degree. This chart example is just a smidgeon of the evidence for the necessity of a Personal Creator , viz God, existing AND continuing to be active in the control of our Universe . The Universe: Evidence for Its Fine Tuning

 

[parsley]

Originally Posted by alexiscurious

So a few people said that this is only an opinion and strongly suggests a creator and a few others said it was the objective truth. Ok...
​

It is more about belief than opinion, though there is not much difference there really. People form beliefs based on part due to their desires. Therefore, humans do form beliefs that aren't true, and then those beliefs govern the way they live/the opinions they are willing to form etc.

True, and those few who happen to answer this thread could have completely divergent opinions. Asking a Christian-based question on a Christian forum will bring a range of answers.

The questions on creation have gone on through humanity's entire existence (as far as we know!) so it isn't going to be solved with irrefutable truth when we want it to be.

Humbling, but just part of living on Earth.

As for the Bible's description-- it is very short, written in an ancient language that provides very little filler information (vowels, punctuation), and was written after generations of oral tradition. I don't consider the details worth the large debates people tend to turn it into. That is not what Christianity is about.

But I do stand firm on intelligent design, and notice many humans have that response when looking at nature. I studied Biology for a while, and the systems that operate plants and animals are incredible... more than a team could engineer in a lifetime.

I don't consider myself an expert, but I rarely get into debates on creation because there's nowhere to go with them. Nobody wins, and everybody walks away fuming.

 

[TheyCallMeDavid]

True, and those few who happen to answer this thread could have completely divergent opinions. Asking a Christian-based question on a Christian forum will bring a range of answers.

The questions on creation have gone on through humanity's entire existence (as far as we know!) so it isn't going to be solved with irrefutable truth when we want it to be.

Humbling, but just part of living on Earth.

As for the Bible's description-- it is very short, written in an ancient language that provides very little filler information (vowels, punctuation), and was written after generations of oral tradition. I don't consider the details worth the large debates people tend to turn it into. That is not what Christianity is about.
But I do stand firm on intelligent design, and notice many humans have that response when looking at nature. I studied Biology for a while, and the systems that operate plants and animals are incredible... more than a team could engineer in a lifetime.

I don't consider myself an expert, but I rarely get into debates on creation because there's nowhere to go with them. Nobody wins, and everybody walks away fuming.

It doesn't matter that the Bible was written in foreign language to English. What matters is the transmission quality thru the ages, the amount of manuscripts available for comparison, the closest date of manuscripts to the original transcript written by eye witnesses of the event, the internal historical evidence, and the external historical evidences, and supportive archeological finds. When you compare the top ancient literary Works with the New Testament of the Bible, the N.T. is the leader on all of the above using the same secular historicity testing standards that all Literary works are subjected to. This popular atheist rhetoric that 'we cant trust the Bible ' is proclaimed by ignorant People who've never taken the time to diligently look into the credibility of the Bible , nor who care to . They're only motive is to maintain their apriori-commitment to atheism and disdain for anything tied to God, Jesus, personal Sin because it is such an affront to them.

Let me know if you are ready to discover the real truth behind the N.T. 's credibility and ill give you the best Source.

 

[JGG]

Everything is an opinion. Some opinions are consistent with the truth, some are not.

For instance, if your opinion agrees with mine, your opinion is consistent with the truth. If not, you're believing a lie.

 

[oi_antz]

For instance, if your opinion agrees with mine, your opinion is consistent with the truth. If not, you're believing a lie.

I believe rather this opinion is not true, because the fact that an opinion can be found to be trusted by more than one person does not constitute the definition of truth. More than one person can choose to be of the same opinion, even if the opinion is not true.