What is the fullness of Salvation to a believer?

Water Walker

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I believe faith gets us there and takes us through to new Spiritual horizons. Salvation is the result of faith in Jesus Christ and His rising from the grave, giving us sanctification which produces holiness unto God. Allowing us to exhibit God's Righteousness in us, allowing us to be whole Saints, sinless sons and daughters.

Am I off my rocker or what?:idea:
 

1watchman

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Much of what you say is true to the Word. I would just add that faith should mean receiving the Lord Jesus (not just believing about Him), for without a personal relationship with Him it is only a doctrine or religious belief. So, if faith is actually to one their trust in the Lord Jesus and devotion to Him, then they will be "born again" by the indwelling and sealing of the Holy Spirit. That is God-the Father's gift of salvation to those who receive His beloved Son.

The other part is that real believers are always sinners saved by grace (forgiven), and there is no such thing as sinless perfection as some Christians say. The flesh is ever with us and Satan works on it to cause us to dishonor and disobey God (though we have the new life). The real saints (sanctified ones) will seek to confess sin often (1 Jn. 1:9-10) and commune with the Lord all along our pathway. We will find perfection when we get home to Heaven. Thank God our standing though is sure in Christ.

One should also see the difference between our standing and our state. A real "born again" believer (John 3 and 1 Jn. 5:10-12) has a perfect standing before God as a "child of God", but if we forget God and follow the ways of the world and please our flesh, our spiritual state will become "carnal" and we will dishonor God. If not faithfully confessed as our sin, we will forfeit much (rewards) at the "Judgment Seat Of Christ" when we get to Heaven.

Probably more could be said about our standing, hope, and state, but this is the essence of it, I believe.
 
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Water Walker

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Much of what you say is true to the Word. I would just add that faith should mean receiving the Lord Jesus (not just believing about Him), for without a personal relationship with Him it is only a doctrine or religious belief. So, if faith is actually to one their trust in the Lord Jesus and devotion to Him, then they will be "born again" by the indwelling and sealing of the Holy Spirit. That is God-the Father's gift of salvation to those who receive His beloved Son.

There is two types of belief in the scriptures, a belief in something and a belief on something. The belief I talk about is 'in' a deeper more spiritual understanding. Where the belief on something or someone is like the scripture that states the devils believe and tremble. We agree in this area I am sure.

The other part is that real believers are always sinners saved by grace (forgiven),

I say we were sinners saved by grace and we are now saints! No longer sinners but redeemed by the blood, no longer walking by the flesh but by the Spirit.

and there is no such thing as sinless perfection as some Christians say. The flesh is ever with us and Satan works on it to cause us to dishonor and disobey God (though we have the new life). The real saints (sanctified ones) will seek to confess sin often (1 Jn. 1:9-10) and commune with the Lord all along our pathway. We will find perfection when we get home to Heaven. Thank God our standing though is sure in Christ.

Please take no offence but you sound Calvinistic in your writing. If you read the rest of 1 john 1:5-10 you would see that we can not walk in the light with God, if we sin we walk in darkness. Would God make us His Temple to dwell in if we are sinners. Neither can exist together at the same time in the same place.
Your way of thinking leaves a carrot dangled in front of us that is unattainable until we die? The writer of first John wasted his time writing the following:
Chapter 2
2 My little children, I am writing you these things so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ the Righteous One. 2 He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not only for ours, but also for those of the whole world.


God’s Commands

3 This is how we are sure that we have come to know Him: by keeping His commands. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” yet doesn't keep His commands, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly in him the love of God is perfected. This is how we know we are in Him: 6 The one who says he remains in Him should walk just as He walked.

I say how did Jesus walk? No sin was found in Him...He walked sinless.

One should also see the difference between our standing and our state. A real "born again" believer (John 3 and 1 Jn. 5:10-12) has a perfect standing before God as a "child of God", but if we forget God and follow the ways of the world and please our flesh, our spiritual state will become "carnal" and we will dishonor God. If not faithfully confessed as our sin, we will forfeit much (rewards) at the "Judgment Seat Of Christ" when we get to Heaven.
Probably more could be said about our standing, hope, and state, but this is the essence of it, I believe.

Again we have different perspectives you see a glass half empty, I see that there is no victory in your line of thought. I see a constant struggle of flesh and spirit like in Romans 7. but in the end Paul saw the victory in the end.

Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord!So then, with my mind I myself am a slave to the law of God, but with my flesh, to the law of sin. 8 Therefore, no condemnation now exists for those in Christ Jesus,[a] 2 because the Spirit’s law of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3 What the law could not do since it was limited by the flesh, God did. He condemned sin in the flesh by sending His own Son in flesh like ours under sin’s domain, and as a sin offering, 4 in order that the law’s requirement would be accomplished in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh think about the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, about the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind-set of the flesh is death, but the mind-set of the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind-set of the flesh is hostile to God because it does not submit itself to God’s law, for it is unable to do so. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 You, however, are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, since the Spirit of God lives in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10 Now if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead lives in you, then He who raised Christ from the dead will also bring your mortal bodies to life through His Spirit who lives in you.


In my books there is no difference between standing and state. One can not be flesh and Spirit, light and darkness. The problem I see is there are lots of Christians out there that are struggling with what they call sin and it is really just temptation. Temptation is not sin, Jesus was tempted and did not sin. The Holy Spirit was given to us so we could have a way to stand up under temptation and come out victorious. I claim to be Holy or else I will not see Him. Victory over sin is for now not after we die!
I am born again, praise God.
1 john 3:9 Everyone who has been born of God does not sin, because His seed remains in him; he is not able to sin, because he has been born of God. 10 This is how God’s children—and the Devil’s children—are made evident.
 
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Salvation is the result of faith in Jesus Christ and His rising from the grave, giving us sanctification which produces holiness unto God

I wouldn't say that.

Firstly, Salvation is up to your own personal interpretation. If you accept someone elses, then that's fine. God will judge you on that. So it's not standardized. When you standardize these things, it creates what is called 'fundamentalism' which divides us. We must respect our own versions of Salvation. God will judge our definition of 'Salvation' eventually. What he'll say? We don't know.

He might say: "Salvation is just a word. Word definitions have no meaning to me, for I have been watching and have judged you on your actions".

To me, salvation is knowledge. It's 'knowing' with certainty that God exists. This is inside you as an individual.

Once you have salvation, you start that 'process' of doing righteous towards God's will.

You are very free. You are free to chose as you wish, but God will judge later.

Lately, you may not have many options to pursue happiness or help humanity, but God knows this. He's allowing you to make a difference.. to examine the situation.

Is it that Secular Humanists/Atheists have taken us into slavery because God is sending us a message that *we* are doing wrong?

Is mixing the celebration of the birth of Christ with a mythical, false prophet named "Santa Clause" part of God's punishment to us from straying away from Him?

Young children believe in Santa Clause as a false profit, mix it with Pagan tree worship, and then mix it with Christ's birth. Christmas becomes a Santa Clause Christmas around 1930 in the US with a Coca-Cola artist.

The children get told there is no Santa Clause. The children grow up, and with the growth of Secular Humanism and the Internet, the children no longer believe there is a God because they always hold on to the child hood memory of being told there was no Santa Clause. When they become older, they consider 'God' the same when they hit University and the Internet and pop culture.

God wants us to put the pieces together and take action. Maybe you may consider this Salvation?

So does God want you deciphering words and phrases? Or does he have another idea of what your role is?

Only you can find the answers.. God will eventually tell you if you were right or not.
 
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Jeffersonian

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Firstly, Salvation is up to your own personal interpretation
.

Salvation is up to my own personal interpretation? Really? Its funny that you say that, since in your writings, you critique Humanism, and to say that salvation is up to my own personal interpretation is a very humanist thing. Establishing men´s reason above God´s word is enthroning humanity in the center of truth.

This is what the bible says.
"Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. 3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,"( 1 Cor. 15:1-4). This my friend, is salvation.

Water walker said that ''Salvation is the result of faith in Jesus Christ and His rising from the grave, giving us sanctification which produces holiness unto God'' And you said that you wouldn't say that, so it means you wouldn't agree. To disagree with this statement is to disagree with scriptures. It is written : For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is th/COLOR](Ephesians 2:8)

We must respect our own versions of Salvation.

We must respect the scriptures rather than our own versions of Salvation. Salvation is already defined by God.

To me, salvation is knowledge.

If you ever study the history of Christianity, you will realize that what you just said here sounds very Gnostic.

It's 'knowing' with certainty that God exists. This is inside you as an individual.

The devils also believe — and tremble(James 2:19), and im pretty sure the devil is not saved. To believe in God's existence is no mean by which anyone can be saved. The problem of needing salvation is not the lack of knowledge, but the lack of fulfilling the Law. That's why is by grace, since Jesus fulfill the law so now by faith we are presented righteous before a Holy God that demands justices for our sinning.

Once you have salvation, you start that 'process' of doing righteous towards God's will.
You are very free. You are free to chose as you wish, but God will judge later.

This is the first time i agree with you, only with the first part of this statement. If we are saved, we are not free to chose as we wish anymore. Because it is written : You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons (Romans 8:9;14)


Is it that Secular Humanists/Atheists have taken us into slavery because God is sending us a message that *we* are doing wrong?

You should open your eyes, many of your previous staments are very humanist in nature. Exalting relativism, enthroning human reason in the center of knowledge, Low view of the scriptures. All those elements are part of a humanist kind of thinking. Give it some thought.;)


God wants us to put the pieces together and take action. Maybe you may consider this Salvation?

No one should consider this. Im sorry. But this should we all consider : that salvation is summarized in the work of Jesus Christ on the cross on behalf of sinners.

so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him. (Hebrews 9:28)

I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. (Romans 1:16)

because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” (Romans 10:9-13)

And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. (Colossians 2:13-14)
 
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I believe faith gets us there and takes us through to new Spiritual horizons. Salvation is the result of faith in Jesus Christ and His rising from the grave, giving us sanctification which produces holiness unto God. Allowing us to exhibit God's Righteousness in us, allowing us to be whole Saints, sinless sons and daughters.

Am I off my rocker or what?:idea:
Dearest Water Walker, you are not wrong. I would simply add that:

The fulness of salvation is in those who possess the fulness of the Holy Spirit. Acquiring this fulness is the aim of the Christian life and the fruit of true faith and repentance.

There is a true story, written by a Christian named Nicholas Motovilov, following a mystical encounter he had with one of these "whole saints, sinless sons and daughters" you have referred to.

If you read this short story, beginning to end, and are not dissuaded from receiving the power contained within it due to this holy person's faith being rooted in a different Christan Tradition than yours, you will see how very close you are, through this understanding of yours, to the Kingdom of Heaven.

... and, by the way, the sanctification you speak of is sometimes called "Theosis"; a Greek term that denotes the process of "becoming God" by means of a correct spiritual life.

The above-mentioned true story is not just for Eastern Orthodox Christians, but rather, it has come as a gift to all those who "hunger and thirst for righteousness" in Christ.

The Aim of the Christian Life
 
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ebedmelech

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I believe faith gets us there and takes us through to new Spiritual horizons. Salvation is the result of faith in Jesus Christ and His rising from the grave, giving us sanctification which produces holiness unto God. Allowing us to exhibit God's Righteousness in us, allowing us to be whole Saints, sinless sons and daughters.

Am I off my rocker or what?:idea:
That's defintely a way to say it but in my view that is not "the fullness of salvation", that is "the growth of sanctification" in our lives as we "walk in the Spirit".

"The fullness of salvation" will be when believers receive their glorified bodies at the coming of Christ. This is why we can say:

*I am saved - We have received Christ and the Holy Spirit is given us as a "down payment" on our salvation as Ephesians 1:13, 14
13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.


*I am being saved - After initial salvation, God is setting us apart as His people (which is the process sanctification), to live our lives to Him. I think Romans 12:1, 2 addresses this:
Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.
2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.


*I will be saved - This is "the fullness of our salvation", when we receive our glorified bodies no longer with the taint of sin at the coming of Christ which is stated in 1 Corinthians 15:50-54
50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “Death is swallowed up in victory.

When Christ returns and changes us we are truly saved...never to battle our flesh again nor be concerned with a sinful world!

So no brother, "you're not off your rocker", keep pursuing! :thumbsup: :amen:
 
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by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

And we can read other translations and do some research:

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
In addition, you are saved by this Good News if you hold on to the doctrine I taught you, unless you believed it without thinking it over.

New Living Translation (©2007)
It is this Good News that saves you if you continue to believe the message I told you--unless, of course, you believed something that was never true in the first place.

Be lets take an actual look and search for truth about this statement:

Barnes' Notes on the Bible
By which also ye are saved - On which your salvation depends; the belief of which is indispensable to your salvation; see the note on Mark 16:16. The apostle thus shows the "importance" of the doctrine. In every respect it demanded their attention. It was that which was first preached among them; that which they had solemnly professed; that by which they had been built up; and that which was connected with their salvation. It does not mean simply that by this they were brought into a salvable state (Clarke, Macknight, Whitby, Bloomfield, etc.), but it means that their hopes of eternal life rested on this; and by this they were then "in fact" saved from the condemnation of sin, and were in the possession of the hope of eternal life.

If ye keep in memory - Margin, as in the Greek, "if ye hold fast." The idea is, that they were saved by this, or would be, if they faithfully retained or held the doctrine as he delivered it; if they observed it, and still believed it, notwithstanding all the efforts of their enemies, and all the arts of false teaching to wrest it from them. There is a doubt delicately suggested here, whether they did in fact still adhere to his doctrine, or whether they had not abandoned it in part for the opposite.

Unless ye have believed in vain - You will be saved by it, if you adhere to it, unless it shall turn out that it was vain to believe, and that the doctrine was false. That it was "not" false, he proceeds to demonstrate. Unless all your trials, discouragements, and hopes were to no purpose, and all have been the result of imposture (meaning the writers of the scripture); and unless all your profession is false and hollow, you will be saved by this great doctrine which I first preached to you.

So we should be more open minded and put things into context. Who the authors were, when they were written, what was their purpose. What was their motives. The scholars know this stuff already very well.

I think God wants you to continue your process to study and search for the will of God.

-We know that Jesus was here for real and was person (all historians, scholars, University tax funded agnostic Biblical Hisotrians, now agree he was a real person... I know a lot of people still think he was a fable to have faith in. No he was actually a real person like us).

-We know that he was a Jewish Rabbi.

-We know that he was trying to clean the corruption going on in the church ;)

-We know that he was hung on the cross for real where all scholars and university agnostics agree unanimously in the legitimacy of this article:

The Arabic text of this passage is as follows:

At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. And His conduct was good, and [He] was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became His disciples. Pilate condemned Him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become His disciples did not abandon His discipleship. They reported that He had appeared to them three days after His crucifixion and that He was alive; accordingly, He was perhaps the Messiah concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders.

The above passage is found in the Arabic manuscript entitled: "Kitab Al-Unwan Al-Mukallal Bi-Fadail Al-Hikma Al-Mutawwaj Bi-Anwa Al-Falsafa Al-Manduh Bi-Haqaq Al-Marifa." The approximate translation would be: "Book of History Guided by All the Virtues of Wisdom. Crowned with Various Philosophies and Blessed by the Truth of Knowledge."
 
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Water Walker

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Exhortations to Godliness
Hebrews 10:19-25
19 Therefore, brothers, since we have boldness to enter the sanctuary through the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way He has opened for us through the curtain (that is, His flesh), 21 and since we have a great high priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed in pure water. 23 Let us hold on to the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful. 24 And let us be concerned about one another in order to promote love and good works, 25 not staying away from our worship meetings, as some habitually do, but encouraging each other, and all the more as you see the day drawing near.


We have a new conscience of pure thought, holy in intention for the will of God.
 
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