What is the Biblical "KIND"

Freedom777

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Perhaps the most frequently repeated mistake that evolutionists make in their attacks on creation is to assert that "natural selection" and "speciation" prove evolution and disprove the Biblical account of Orgins. Thier bait-and-switch arguments imply that creationists believe in "fixity of species." The glossary for the PBS "Evloution" series ONLINE COURSE FOR TEACHERS: Teaching evolution explicitly makes this empty allegation:

"In creationism, species are described as 'FIXED" in the sense that they are believed not to change their form, or appearance, through time."

But NO reputable creationist denies speciation- In Fact, it is an important part of creationist biology. The real issue is whether evolution can explain the increase of genetic information content- enough changes to turn microbes into men,Not simple change through time.

Creationists, starting from the Bible, believe that God created different KINDS of organisms, which reproduced "after their kinds" (Gen. 1:11,12,21,24,25). Thus the Biblical kinds would have originally been distinct biological species, i.e., a population of orginisms that can interbreed to produce fertile offspring but that cannot so breed with a different biological species.
But creationists point out that the Biblical "kind" is larger than one of today's "species." Each of the original kinds was created with a vast amount of information. God made sure that the original creatures had enough variety in thier genetic information so that their descendants could adapt to a wide variety of inviroments.
Based on the Biblical criterion for kinds, creationists have made several deductions about the modern descendants of the original creations. They deduce, for example, that as long as two modern creatures can hybridize with ture fertilization, the two creatures are descended from the same kind. Also, if two creatures can hybridize with the same third creature, they are all members of the same kind. The hybridization criterion is a valid operational definition, which could in princible enable researchers to list all of the kinds. The implication is one-way-- hydridization is evidence that two creatures are the same kind, but it does not necessarily follow that if hybridization cannot occur then they are not members of the same kind (failure to hybridize could be due to degenerative mutations)

The boundaries of the "kind" do not always correspond to any given man-made classification such as "species," genus, family ect. But this is not the fault of the biblical term "kind"; it is actually due to inconsistencies in the man-made classification system. That is, several organisms classified as different "species," and even different genera or higher groupings, can produce fertile offspring. This means that they are really the same species that have several varieties, hence a polytypic (many type) species. A good example is Kekiamalu thw wholphin, a fertile hybrid between a male false killer whale and a female bottlenose dolphin between two different so-called genera.

Biologists have identified several ways that a loss of genetic information through mutations (copying mistakes) can lead to new species -- e.g., the loss of a proteins ability to recognize"imprinting' marks, "jumping genes," natural selection, and genetic drift. When these mutations take place in small populations, they can sometimes result in steril or nonviable offspring. Of changes in song or color might result in birds that no longer recognize a mate, so they no longer interbreed. Either way, a new species is formed. Thus each created kind may had been the ancestor of several present day species.
But again, its important to stress that speciation has nothing to do with real evolution (GTE) The general theory of evolution, because it involves sorting and loss of genetic information, rather than new information.

The Biblical creation/Fall/Flood/migration model predicts rapid formation of new varieties and even species. This is because all the modern varieties of land vertebrates must have descended from comparatively few animals that disembarked from the ark only around 4,500 years ago. In contrast, Darwin thought that this process would normally take eons. It turns out that the very evidence claimed by evolutionist to support their theory supports the Biblical model.


Excerpt taken from Jonathan Sarfati's book "Refuting Evolution 2"
 

Arikay

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Very interesting, first time I have seen a creationist try to establish what a kind is. :)

A couple questions by this definition, can we then sort animals into different kinds? Can we look at an animal and decide that it is definatly a different kind?

another is this:
"In contrast, Darwin thought that this process would normally take eons. It turns out that the very evidence claimed by evolutionist to support their theory supports the Biblical model."

What evidence?
 
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euphoric

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This definition should make flood discussions fun again.  No more trying to assert that there were a relatively few kinds from which all modern species descended.  Now we're back to many thousands of kinds on the ark.  Just when the YECs think they've weaseled their way out of one problem, they create ten more for themselves.  It's like the Hydra of Christian apologetics.

-brett
 
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euphoric

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4th April 2003 at 08:57 AM Freedom777 said this in Post #5

I don't understand, Brett.What are you saying?


You have a bit of a catch-22 here.  Some YECs try to explain away the enormous logistical problems with the flood story by asserting that the Biblical "kinds" were actually far smaller in number than modern species.  This is an attempt to get around the fact that there are millions of species on the planet and accounting for all of them on the ark is impossible.  When trying to justify the Biblical account, some YECs will try to whittle down the list of ark inhabitants by broadly defining "kinds" and suggesting that the relatively few original kinds microevolved into all of the species present today.

Then we have Dr. Safarti's article which places a definition of kind that is more narrow.  This leaves us with hundreds of thousands if not millions of kinds again and the flood story becomes impossible.  Hence my comment about the Hydra (If you recall that was the monster in Greek mythology that, when one of its heads was chopped off, two would grow back in its place.), every time YECs come up with an explanation for one problem with the young earth hypothesis, two (or five or ten) crop up in its place.

-brett
 
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euphoric

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4th April 2003 at 08:54 AM Freedom777 said this in Post #4

But again, its important to stress that speciation has nothing to do with real evolution (GTE) "The general theory of evolution", because it involves sorting and loss of genetic information, rather than new information.
This evidence.

How is he justifying the assertion that speciation only involves a loss of information?  Or is this another version of the standard "no new information" claptrap?

-brett
 
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euphoric

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4th April 2003 at 09:14 AM Freedom777 said this in Post #8

When I talk about the creation-evolution issue, I am refering to molecules to man evolution, not natural selection. Which is not even close to the same thing as (GTE).

Natural selection is a mechanism by which evolution occurs.  You're making a false distinction here.

-brett
 
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euphoric

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4th April 2003 at 09:20 AM Freedom777 said this in Post #11

The large number that Safarti was talking about was tons more genetic code not tons more kinds Brett. Read it again.


You've misunderstood what I'm saying.  Safarti's explanation of "kind" would, by definition mean that there are a large number of "kinds."  He's saying that a kind is defined as any group of organisms that can interbreed and produce fertile or infertile offspring(at least that's my understanding of what he said).  By that definition there are at least several hundred thousand kinds of organisms on Earth.  Essentially what I'm saying is that even if you lump all interfertile organisms into a single kind, I'm pretty sure that still leaves you with an extremely large number of groups.

-brett
 
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euphoric

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4th April 2003 at 09:28 AM Arikay said this in Post #13

Yep, this "GTE" doesnt seem to be the actual theory as natural selection and survival of the fittest are parts of the theory (I believe).

Based on this info are zebras, donkeys and Horses different kinds or like kinds?

I believe they would be the same kind, because they can produce offspring(infertile offspring, but offspring nonetheless).  Interestingly enough this would, I believe make lions and tigers the same kind, but domestic cats and some small wild cats would be a different kind.  Dogs and wolves would be the same kind along with dingos and coyotes, but foxes would be a different kind.  It seems to be a rather haphazzard definition really. 

-brett
 
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4th April 2003 at 09:44 AM Arikay said this in Post #15

the other interesting thing, if I remember Ladies "kinds" thread correctly is that Zebras, Donkeys and horses have differeing amounts of genetic stuff. (I believe Zebras have the least and horses the most).


I believe it was notto who posted that horses have 32 pairs of chromosomes, donkeys have 31 and zebras have 22.  Of course the absurdity of zebras and horses being in the same kind with a ten chromosome pair difference(in numerical terms) and humans and chimpanzees being separate kinds with a one chromosome pair difference shouldn't be overlooked.

-brett
 
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Joe_Sixpack

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"But again, its important to stress that speciation has nothing to do with real evolution (GTE) "The general theory of evolution", because it involves sorting and loss of genetic information, rather than new information.
This evidence."

Creationists keep claiming this "no new information" claptrap but they never defend it by properly defining genetic information. I would think that a mutation that causes the production of a new functional protein (many examples of this) would be new information - wouldn't you?
 
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Cantuar

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But NO reputable creationist denies speciation- In Fact, it is an important part of creationist biology. The real issue is whether evolution can explain the increase of genetic information content- enough changes to turn microbes into men,Not simple change through time.

So when a new species forms after a gene duplication followed by mutation of one of the duplicates to code for a brand-new enzyme, along with all the enzymes coded for by the original set of genes, exactly how does this decrease information?
 
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euphoric

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4th April 2003 at 10:05 AM Joe_Sixpack said this in Post #17Creationists keep claiming this "no new information" claptrap but they never defend it by properly defining genetic information. I would think that a mutation that causes the production of a new functional protein (many examples of this) would be new information - wouldn't you?

You're asking for definitions from YECs?  Next you'll be wanting testable models, criteria for falsification and evidence of the young earth hypothesis' predictive value.  Let's not be unreasonable in our requests here.  ;)

-brett
 
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