What is Heresy? (My video outline and Facebook post for a future video project).

[Pavel Mosko]

Bullet Points on Heresy video.
(Bishop Stan has been encouraging me to get back into video making. Been working on some "low hanging fruit ones, of stuff I've done in the past or been thinking about lately and here is the latest one).

Section 1
What is Heresy?

Many Christians tend to think of heresy as:
1) Bad/extreme doctrine
2) A person reciting or proclaiming an obviously incorrect understanding / viewpoint of a basic Christian foundational teaching (aka "dogma").


Out of the 2 examples #2 is definitely the best, but it is a bit lacking because:
A) Heresies in the official sense (non-colloquial, non-idiomatic) need to be based on the decisions of an official Christian religious body, and not just the private judgement of a single person who thinks something is "unbiblical" or whatever. And yes, there is Biblical precedent for this, a number of times the Bible mentions cases are decided in the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses and we have meeting of council of elders (aka the Sanhedrin) where business of the Israel and Judaism was handled and that was directly imported into Christianity with "Church Counsels "seen as early as Acts 15.

B) Unlike how things come up in ordinary conversation where people can advocate wrong doctrines, even dangerous doctrines, being a heretic is not proclaiming such a doctrine, but rather comes from stubbornness. Heretics are not people who say wrong doctrines in their preaching, profession of faith accidentally, or through a bad understanding of theology, a bad reading of scripture etc. rather they are people who cling to that understanding, reading of scripture, proclamation of Faith etc. again, and again, no matter how much they are corrected or shown that their teaching is indeed erroneous and not that of the Apostolic Faith! Basically, you cannot be a heretic by accident, by slip of the tongue etc. but are one by deliberate and willful persistent choice.



Section 2
Some people might be surprised that I actually really love heresy (find it fun and fascinating to study) and see it as a indirect blessing for the Church! In the sense of Romans 8:28 "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who[a] have been called according to his purpose."

1) It has been said by folks citing Bible scholars that the majority of the New Testament (67%-72% of it) was inspired as a response to correct some area of doctrine or praxis.

2) The Creeds have been a great benefit to Christianity as handy statements and summary of Faith, yet without heresies like Gnosticism and Arianism we likely would not have them! (I suppose we would have something else similar but tailored to a new problem).

3) Outside of Jesus the Son of God, the most seminal theologian of Christianity is saint Paul who is the complete personification of this trope in his epistles.

4) This fact is even true in some areas where you might not expect it like the Docetic heresy being one important issue motivating the writing of the Gospel of John and one of his epistles!

5) Heresy in general is a great foil for showing the benefits of theology etc. As a person who really loves the kind of abstract thinking of theology, the study of History etc. I have encountered a certain amount of disparaging from certain neighborhoods of the Christian Faith whose inhabitants can be very anti-Intellectual in their attitudes (and see no need for theology etc.), but the story of heresy is also a study on why such things are not useless intellectualism but a gift that is simply misunderstood and underappreciated by such folks.

 

[actionsub]

Section 2 comment: Consider that the ecumenical councils that formulated the Creeds were called specifically to address some form of heresy, particularly that concerning the person and nature of Jesus Christ.

 

[eleos1954]

Bullet Points on Heresy video.
(Bishop Stan has been encouraging me to get back into video making. Been working on some "low hanging fruit ones, of stuff I've done in the past or been thinking about lately and here is the latest one).

Section 1
What is Heresy?

Many Christians tend to think of heresy as:
1) Bad/extreme doctrine
2) A person reciting or proclaiming an obviously incorrect understanding / viewpoint of a basic Christian foundational teaching (aka "dogma").


Out of the 2 examples #2 is definitely the best, but it is a bit lacking because:
A) Heresies in the official sense (non-colloquial, non-idiomatic) need to be based on the decisions of an official Christian religious body, and not just the private judgement of a single person who thinks something is "unbiblical" or whatever. And yes, there is Biblical precedent for this, a number of times the Bible mentions cases are decided in the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses and we have meeting of council of elders (aka the Sanhedrin) where business of the Israel and Judaism was handled and that was directly imported into Christianity with "Church Counsels "seen as early as Acts 15.

B) Unlike how things come up in ordinary conversation where people can advocate wrong doctrines, even dangerous doctrines, being a heretic is not proclaiming such a doctrine, but rather comes from stubbornness. Heretics are not people who say wrong doctrines in their preaching, profession of faith accidentally, or through a bad understanding of theology, a bad reading of scripture etc. rather they are people who cling to that understanding, reading of scripture, proclamation of Faith etc. again, and again, no matter how much they are corrected or shown that their teaching is indeed erroneous and not that of the Apostolic Faith! Basically, you cannot be a heretic by accident, by slip of the tongue etc. but are one by deliberate and willful persistent choice.



Section 2
Some people might be surprised that I actually really love heresy (find it fun and fascinating to study) and see it as a indirect blessing for the Church! In the sense of Romans 8:28 "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who[a] have been called according to his purpose."

1) It has been said by folks citing Bible scholars that the majority of the New Testament (67%-72% of it) was inspired as a response to correct some area of doctrine or praxis.

2) The Creeds have been a great benefit to Christianity as handy statements and summary of Faith, yet without heresies like Gnosticism and Arianism we likely would not have them! (I suppose we would have something else similar but tailored to a new problem).

3) Outside of Jesus the Son of God, the most seminal theologian of Christianity is saint Paul who is the complete personification of this trope in his epistles.

4) This fact is even true in some areas where you might not expect it like the Docetic heresy being one important issue motivating the writing of the Gospel of John and one of his epistles!

5) Heresy in general is a great foil for showing the benefits of theology etc. As a person who really loves the kind of abstract thinking of theology, the study of History etc. I have encountered a certain amount of disparaging from certain neighborhoods of the Christian Faith whose inhabitants can be very anti-Intellectual in their attitudes (and see no need for theology etc.), but the story of heresy is also a study on why such things are not useless intellectualism but a gift that is simply misunderstood and underappreciated by such folks.

Jesus was considered a heretic because He taught things that didn't "fit" to the doctrine as put forth by those who claimed they knew it all.

Heresy is claimed by a religious beliefs (systems) who claim to know it all .... and if one's beliefs are outside of that then they are considered to be a heretic.

Best for one to study His Word for themselves rather than being "spoon fed" by any particular church system.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Jesus was considered a heretic because He taught things that didn't "fit" to the doctrine as put forth by those who claimed they knew it all.

Heresy is claimed by a religious beliefs (systems) who claim to know it all .... and if one's beliefs are outside of that then they are considered to be a heretic.

Best for one to study His Word for themselves rather than being "spoon fed" by any particular church system.

Agreed, but this is kind of the typical response I am use to and the irony is many folks can do something else when the shoe is on the other foot call you unbiblcial, a false teacher and so on based on their private reading/ idiosyncratic understanding of a passage, based on the dogma of their sect that might itself be based on visions, revelations, angelic encounters that are odds with the received Faith.


Or as I also put it, Jesus is the "Bugs Bunny of the Faith" who is able to run circles around the Elder Fudd Pharisees. Many people aspire to be Bugs Bunny (or the Remnant for that matter) but few got the right stuff.

or as I put it at another time in something I blogged a few years back on Facebook....



4) God is on His Own Side

Joshua 5:13 Now when Joshua was near Jericho, he looked up and saw a man standing in front of him with a drawn sword in his hand. Joshua went up to him and asked, “Are you for us or for our enemies?”
14 “Neither,” he replied, “but as commander of the army of the Lord I have now come.” Then Joshua fell face down to the ground in reverence, and asked him, “What message does my Lord[e] have for his servant?” (Trinity doctrine note. Joshua was not rebuked for prostrating himself so this was a Parousia and not the appearance of an angel).


This passage is surprising to me. Many Christians tend to believe that God is on the side of their particular country, church or group. In this case, however there is something more to it than just everyday narcissism. Joshua actually came from a group specifically chosen by God to be his literal “people” and liberated them from slavery with a series of impressive miracles. If that doesn’t warrant believing that God would automatically “be on your side” than I don’t know what would! But strangely, while Joshua is on mission doing what God called him to do God still asserts that He is above it all.


This is message for our time. Because It seems almost ubiquitous that Christians assume that God is always on the side of whatever group they are a member of. In the churches I’ve attended in the past, it seemed pretty clear to us that God while being “self-existent and beyond space and time”, strangely also seems to identify himself as being dual citizen of both the United States and Israel, as well as being American Evangelical Protestant and a Messianic Jew!


This is of course nonsense. If God really is beyond time and space as creator that would mean he also is above our own identity culture politics as well. The Church is termed “Catholic” or Universal because it is made up of all believers not just in all parts of the World now simultaneously, but across all ages of time as well. God likewise is the most Catholic being embracing all aspects of humanity that He saved and not just those our own little corner of the World.

 

[eleos1954]

Agreed, but this is kind of the typical response I am use to and the irony is many folks can do something else when the shoe is on the other foot call you unbiblcial, a false teacher and so on based on their private reading/ idiosyncratic understanding of a passage, based on the dogma of their sect that might itself be based on visions, revelations, angelic encounters that are odds with the received Faith.


Or as I also put it, Jesus is the "Bugs Bunny of the Faith" who is able to run circles around the Elder Fudd Pharisees. Many people aspire to be Bugs Bunny (or the Remnant for that matter) but few got the right stuff.

or as I put it at another time in something I blogged a few years back on Facebook....



4) God is on His Own Side

Joshua 5:13 Now when Joshua was near Jericho, he looked up and saw a man standing in front of him with a drawn sword in his hand. Joshua went up to him and asked, “Are you for us or for our enemies?”
14 “Neither,” he replied, “but as commander of the army of the Lord I have now come.” Then Joshua fell face down to the ground in reverence, and asked him, “What message does my Lord[e] have for his servant?” (Trinity doctrine note. Joshua was not rebuked for prostrating himself so this was a Parousia and not the appearance of an angel).


This passage is surprising to me. Many Christians tend to believe that God is on the side of their particular country, church or group. In this case, however there is something more to it than just everyday narcissism. Joshua actually came from a group specifically chosen by God to be his literal “people” and liberated them from slavery with a series of impressive miracles. If that doesn’t warrant believing that God would automatically “be on your side” than I don’t know what would! But strangely, while Joshua is on mission doing what God called him to do God still asserts that He is above it all.


This is message for our time. Because It seems almost ubiquitous that Christians assume that God is always on the side of whatever group they are a member of. In the churches I’ve attended in the past, it seemed pretty clear to us that God while being “self-existent and beyond space and time”, strangely also seems to identify himself as being dual citizen of both the United States and Israel, as well as being American Evangelical Protestant and a Messianic Jew!


This is of course nonsense. If God really is beyond time and space as creator that would mean he also is above our own identity culture politics as well. The Church is termed “Catholic” or Universal because it is made up of all believers not just in all parts of the World now simultaneously, but across all ages of time as well. God likewise is the most Catholic being embracing all aspects of humanity that He saved and not just those our own little corner of the World.

Catholics promote humanism ..... they are centered around humanity ..... not Christ. Jesus came to divide not unite .....

Jesus says “Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division; for from now on five members in one household will be divided, three against two and two against three.

Mankind will unite over the wrong principles (deceived) .... and severe persecution will follow for those who remain separate. Persecution will be by the union of church and state.

1 Thessalonians 5:3
New King James Version
For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Catholics promote humanism ..... they are centered around humanity ..... not Christ. Jesus came to divide not unite .....

Reading is fundamental, as is reading comprehension.

Jesus says “Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division; for from now on five members in one household will be divided, three against two and two against three.

Yeah, I agree on this, and actually quoted the verse only a day or two ago when A Christian Facebook friend, and personal friend and minister from long ago seemed to indicate that he did not believe in polemics when dealing with folks outside the Faith, especially various ones seen as cults, false religions and so on.

 

[eleos1954]

Agreed, but this is kind of the typical response I am use to and the irony is many folks can do something else when the shoe is on the other foot call you unbiblcial, a false teacher and so on based on their private reading/ idiosyncratic understanding of a passage, based on the dogma of their sect that might itself be based on visions, revelations, angelic encounters that are odds with the received Faith.


Or as I also put it, Jesus is the "Bugs Bunny of the Faith" who is able to run circles around the Elder Fudd Pharisees. Many people aspire to be Bugs Bunny (or the Remnant for that matter) but few got the right stuff.

or as I put it at another time in something I blogged a few years back on Facebook....



4) God is on His Own Side

Joshua 5:13 Now when Joshua was near Jericho, he looked up and saw a man standing in front of him with a drawn sword in his hand. Joshua went up to him and asked, “Are you for us or for our enemies?”
14 “Neither,” he replied, “but as commander of the army of the Lord I have now come.” Then Joshua fell face down to the ground in reverence, and asked him, “What message does my Lord[e] have for his servant?” (Trinity doctrine note. Joshua was not rebuked for prostrating himself so this was a Parousia and not the appearance of an angel).


This passage is surprising to me. Many Christians tend to believe that God is on the side of their particular country, church or group. In this case, however there is something more to it than just everyday narcissism. Joshua actually came from a group specifically chosen by God to be his literal “people” and liberated them from slavery with a series of impressive miracles. If that doesn’t warrant believing that God would automatically “be on your side” than I don’t know what would! But strangely, while Joshua is on mission doing what God called him to do God still asserts that He is above it all.


This is message for our time. Because It seems almost ubiquitous that Christians assume that God is always on the side of whatever group they are a member of. In the churches I’ve attended in the past, it seemed pretty clear to us that God while being “self-existent and beyond space and time”, strangely also seems to identify himself as being dual citizen of both the United States and Israel, as well as being American Evangelical Protestant and a Messianic Jew!


This is of course nonsense. If God really is beyond time and space as creator that would mean he also is above our own identity culture politics as well. The Church is termed “Catholic” or Universal because it is made up of all believers not just in all parts of the World now simultaneously, but across all ages of time as well. God likewise is the most Catholic being embracing all aspects of humanity that He saved and not just those our own little corner of the World.

It's all about Jesus ..... yes there are believers inside and outside of organized church systems .... the Catholic church system sees their church system as the authority (ask any devout catholic) ..... they replace the authority of their system as the head and not Christ Himself.

Believers are to be separate ..... not embrace the traditions of men ..... humanism nor paganism of which the catholic church system is
promoting ..... there is one God and not all worship the same god .... there are many gods.

​

Exodus 20:3-5​

King James Version​

3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

The usurping of the divinity of Jesus ....

https://afc.org/fc_question/why-is-the-catholic-church-a-living-continuation-of-christ-on-earth/

The pope cites "the common good" (loose language) .... who decides that? The pope? No thanks.

Catholicism is all about "the Church" (the catholic church) and not Jesus alone. Nor does many of their teachings reflect that fact.

Pope Francis: There is no option to be passive Catholics when it comes to evangelization

No, Jesus is not catholic ...... He is God .... the creator and sustainer of everything .... everything is subject to Him .... mankind is His creation, all are subject to Him and Him alone not to any man or manmade system on earth.

God is not a "universal system" .... He is source of our being and has the authority over it and we are to proclaim that fact and worship the creator only .... there is no substitute for Christ .... the creator.

 

[The Liturgist]

Bullet Points on Heresy video.
(Bishop Stan has been encouraging me to get back into video making. Been working on some "low hanging fruit ones, of stuff I've done in the past or been thinking about lately and here is the latest one).

Section 1
What is Heresy?

Many Christians tend to think of heresy as:
1) Bad/extreme doctrine
2) A person reciting or proclaiming an obviously incorrect understanding / viewpoint of a basic Christian foundational teaching (aka "dogma").


Out of the 2 examples #2 is definitely the best, but it is a bit lacking because:
A) Heresies in the official sense (non-colloquial, non-idiomatic) need to be based on the decisions of an official Christian religious body, and not just the private judgement of a single person who thinks something is "unbiblical" or whatever. And yes, there is Biblical precedent for this, a number of times the Bible mentions cases are decided in the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses and we have meeting of council of elders (aka the Sanhedrin) where business of the Israel and Judaism was handled and that was directly imported into Christianity with "Church Counsels "seen as early as Acts 15.

B) Unlike how things come up in ordinary conversation where people can advocate wrong doctrines, even dangerous doctrines, being a heretic is not proclaiming such a doctrine, but rather comes from stubbornness. Heretics are not people who say wrong doctrines in their preaching, profession of faith accidentally, or through a bad understanding of theology, a bad reading of scripture etc. rather they are people who cling to that understanding, reading of scripture, proclamation of Faith etc. again, and again, no matter how much they are corrected or shown that their teaching is indeed erroneous and not that of the Apostolic Faith! Basically, you cannot be a heretic by accident, by slip of the tongue etc. but are one by deliberate and willful persistent choice.



Section 2
Some people might be surprised that I actually really love heresy (find it fun and fascinating to study) and see it as a indirect blessing for the Church! In the sense of Romans 8:28 "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who[a] have been called according to his purpose."

1) It has been said by folks citing Bible scholars that the majority of the New Testament (67%-72% of it) was inspired as a response to correct some area of doctrine or praxis.

2) The Creeds have been a great benefit to Christianity as handy statements and summary of Faith, yet without heresies like Gnosticism and Arianism we likely would not have them! (I suppose we would have something else similar but tailored to a new problem).

3) Outside of Jesus the Son of God, the most seminal theologian of Christianity is saint Paul who is the complete personification of this trope in his epistles.

4) This fact is even true in some areas where you might not expect it like the Docetic heresy being one important issue motivating the writing of the Gospel of John and one of his epistles!

5) Heresy in general is a great foil for showing the benefits of theology etc. As a person who really loves the kind of abstract thinking of theology, the study of History etc. I have encountered a certain amount of disparaging from certain neighborhoods of the Christian Faith whose inhabitants can be very anti-Intellectual in their attitudes (and see no need for theology etc.), but the story of heresy is also a study on why such things are not useless intellectualism but a gift that is simply misunderstood and underappreciated by such folks.

You don’t love heresy, rather it is clear you love heresiology, the study of heresy, because you have observed it is a means of apophatic theology.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

You don’t love heresy, rather it is clear you love heresiology, the study of heresy, because you have observed it is a means of apophatic theology.

Yes! Great way of putting it.

 

[The Liturgist]

@eleos1954 did you remember to read the SOP for Traditional Theology before posting here?

 

[anetazo]

Jesus rejected the Talmud, jewish traditions. The religious leaders, shanhendrin hated Jesus. Titus 3:10. A man that is a heretick, after the first and second admonition reject; second epistle John verse 10. If there come any unto you and bring not this doc6, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed. I respect other people beliefs. I won't compromise my own values and beliefs. I study sound doctrine.

 

[The Liturgist]

Jesus rejected the Talmud, jewish traditions. The religious leaders, shanhendrin hated Jesus. Titus 3:10. A man that is a heretick, after the first and second admonition reject; second epistle John verse 10. If there come any unto you and bring not this doc6, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed. I respect other people beliefs. I won't compromise my own values and beliefs. I study sound doctrine.

Specifically what our Lord rejected was the “Oral Torah” of the Pharisees, which is what is meant by Traditions of Men in Mark 7:13 (and not, for example, the Holy Tradition of the Christian Church through the centuries), which was accumulated by the Scribes into the Mishnah, and later compiled in the late first millenium into the Jerusalem Talmud, and the much more important and widely used Babylonian Talmud (which has been translated into English; as far as I am aware the Jerusalem Talmud has not been, although if such a translation exists I would like to see it).

The Babylonian Talmud is so-called because it was compiled by the large Jewish community in Seleucia-Cstesiphon, which had been built to replace Babylon when the River Euphrates shifted its course, rendering the ancient city of Nimrod and Nebuchadnezzar uninhabitable, until several centuries later, when the course of the Euphrates shifted almost right back to where it had been, resulting in another migration of the entire city to what we now call Baghdad, just south of ancient Babylon.