What I Dislike About Evangelical Services

[MoreCoffee]

Hebrew.

That'd be fine for a Jewish liturgy.

Christians have used Greek and Latin for a long time, and the vernacular too.

 

[Knee V]

That'd be fine for a Jewish liturgy.

Christians have used Greek and Latin for a long time, and the vernacular too.

Of course, once upon a time Greek and Latin *were* the vernacular.

 

[Knee V]

I do appreciate how certain languages sound when chanted, don't get me wrong. I'm just a big proponent of the accessability of the Liturgy over the asthetics of the language.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Of course, once upon a time Greek and Latin *were* the vernacular.

Indeed they were. And for some they still are - almost

God gives so much to us that it seems almost as if he wants to overwhelm us in riches and so we always struggle to keep our heart and mind centred on our God rather than on the many beautiful and wonderful gifts he gives.

Pope Francis against the idolatry of money - YouTube

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Hebrew.

That'd be fine for a Jewish liturgy.

Christians have used Greek and Latin for a long time, and the vernacular too.

I've actually been to a Hebrew-language Catholic Mass in Beersheva, Israel. Absolutely beautiful. You could hardly construct an uglier language for speaking (specifically the Ashkenazi Israeli accent, not Hebrew itself) that is at the same time so beautiful when chanting.

Following up on that note:

I do appreciate how certain languages sound when chanted, don't get me wrong. I'm just a big proponent of the accessability of the Liturgy over the asthetics of the language.

I agree. But I feel like what the western church calls the ordo (those parts of the liturgy that are present and have the same text regardless of the time in the church year: the Kyrie, the Gloria, the Credo, the Sanctus, the Pater Noster, the Agnus Dei, and in some traditions the Nunc Dimittis) could be done easily enough in Greek and Latin. Since they're always the same the memorization is easy enough, and it would be easy enough to provide translations.

In English, on the other hand, the Creed can get really, really long, and it's been awhile since either the Creed or the Lord's Prayer have been sung or chanted in English (at least in the Lutheran church). Even back when the Lord's Prayer was chanted in English, it was by the pastor alone until the doxology, not the whole congregation, and I do think that all parts of the ordo should be sung communally by the whole congregation.

Actually, for a century after the Roman Catholic-Evangelical Catholic/Lutheran break, that's how it remained in a whole lot of Lutheran churches. All the propers, prayers, and readings were done in English, but people continued using Greek and Latin as the liturgical language for the ordo. That would be so nice, I think...

 

[GreekOrthodox]

Of course, once upon a time Greek and Latin *were* the vernacular.

Greek still is in Greece

 

[SQLservant]

I don't know what part of Scripture you refer to..

About the Word, I mean, for example, where Scripture says it is "living and active," or that "faith comes by hearing" it.

And what do you mean by the word "sacrament'?

"An outward and visible sign of an inward and spiritual grace given unto us, ordained by Christ himself, as a means whereby we receive the same, and a pledge to assure us thereof." Certain churches seem to prefer "means of grace" to the word "sacrament." Christ ordained and enjoined two such practices explicitly: Baptism (Mt 28 - "make disciples...baptizing them") and Communion ("do this in remembrance of me").

Baptism is a means of grace because it joins us into the Church, the Body of Christ (1 Co 12:13), washing away our sins (Acts 22:16) through the power of that Christ, into whose death it buries us (Rom 6:3; Col 2:12). Peter even goes so far as to link baptism with salvation (1 Pt 3:20, 21), because as he told the people in Acts 2, repenting and being baptized for the forgiveness of sin, one receives God's Holy Spirit as his witness and Comforter.

I will have to finish out the rest in another post, unfortunately, as time forbids.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

That is, it doesn't matter, because the Father is pleased with whatever a group brings (no sarcasm, just me making sure I understand you right)? Surely there are limitations, though, aren't there?

it appears so from the parable .. mr details seemed peeved that the father threw a party for mr live life because he was back again . joy seems to be very important from this lesson at least .

 

[seeingeyes]

it appears so from the parable .. mr details seemed peeved that the father threw a party for mr live life because he was back again . joy seems to be very important from this lesson at least .

A lovely summary.

 

[Albion]

Wow, amazing that I was able to follow!


I see,
Why not just discipline yourself and set aside time for God.

That would make just as much sense, I agree.

Of course, this way you'd get to be "Sister ____" with an outfit you could wear to retreats and conventions and feel yourself a part of something historic.

 

[sunlover1]

edit

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

The liturgy in Latin sounds lovely; much of it it is chanted.

Pope Benedict XVI Easter Sunday 2012 - YouTube

This setting of the Creed (Credo III) is my favourite. Very beautiful!

BTW, I'm no Latin Scholar, but have little trouble following it.

 

[katherine2001]

I do appreciate how certain languages sound when chanted, don't get me wrong. I'm just a big proponent of the accessability of the Liturgy over the asthetics of the language.

I agree! For one thing, so much of the Orthodox faith is best learned from going to the services. That is where so much of our theology is learned (of course, we also learn in classes as well, but the services can be the best source). When the services are done in a language that most people don't understand (and even the people who really know koine greek and church slavonic only understand maybe 30% of what is being chanted in the liturgy), then the people aren't learning the faith like they should be.

 

[katherine2001]

Greek still is in Greece

Except services are in koine Greek, not modern Greek. Church Slavonic is nothing like the modern Russian language. Why not do it in the modern forms of the language so that people understand what is being taught? How many more people are we going to lose to other denominations because they aren't learning their Orthodox faith since the services are in a language they really don't understand and it is hurting their learning of the faith.

 

[seashale76]

Except services are in koine Greek, not modern Greek. Church Slavonic is nothing like the modern Russian language. Why not do it in the modern forms of the language so that people understand what is being taught? How many more people are we going to lose to other denominations because they aren't learning their Orthodox faith since the services are in a language they really don't understand and it is hurting their learning of the faith.

I have a Russian friend who hated going to church back home and didn't understand Church Slavonic. However- she loves going to church in the US because she can now understand the liturgy as it is English.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Except services are in koine Greek, not modern Greek. Church Slavonic is nothing like the modern Russian language. Why not do it in the modern forms of the language so that people understand what is being taught? How many more people are we going to lose to other denominations because they aren't learning their Orthodox faith since the services are in a language they really don't understand and it is hurting their learning of the faith.

Church Slavonic is an ancestor of modern Bulgarian, anyway.

 

[Knee V]

Except services are in koine Greek, not modern Greek. Church Slavonic is nothing like the modern Russian language. Why not do it in the modern forms of the language so that people understand what is being taught? How many more people are we going to lose to other denominations because they aren't learning their Orthodox faith since the services are in a language they really don't understand and it is hurting their learning of the faith.

I understand that parts of Serbia have begun to drop Slavonic and use Serbian instead. I'd have to verify that again, though. I hope that that is the case, and I hope that more of the Slavic countries follow suit. With Greece, I understand the desire to preserve "the original" language of the New Testament in the Liturgies, but the monasteries take care of that. I don't see why the parishes can't have the language updated for them.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

I understand that parts of Serbia have begun to drop Slavonic and use Serbian instead. I'd have to verify that again, though. I hope that that is the case, and I hope that more of the Slavic countries follow suit. With Greece, I understand the desire to preserve "the original" language of the New Testament in the Liturgies, but the monasteries take care of that. I don't see why the parishes can't have the language updated for them.

Unfortunately, that's hardly the only language problem within the Orthodox communion (though I love Orthodox, I hope you know). The Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Kiev Patriarchate isn't officially a member of the family because of the power of Moscow, and the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Moscow Patriarchate is forced to use Russian. And there's no love lost between ethnic Ukrainians and the Russians.

 

[SQLservant]

Can you just list the items you refer to? thanks.

I had planned to yammer about the other Sacrament, the one that is more relevant to a church service, but it seems I'm not meant to, as every time I try, something gets in the way. I'll just name it instead: Holy Communion (the Eucharist, the Lord's Supper, call it whatever you like best.

Bring what? (to the forefront)
FAith?
There is no cultural divide when it comes to faith,
I was referring to style of worship.

I meant style of worship too, actually. What I meant to be brought to the forefront were those things by which we receive the grace to increase in faith: the Word and the Sacraments.

Could we cut right to the main thought?
Perhaps that would improve our rapport.
What is it you feel is lacking ?

Good idea; I can never get to the point... woe to them to whom I should tell a story!
What I desire, I guess, is what I've said before. The Word and the Eucharist are central to the Church's actions, along with prayer and community. These were the things that the believers in Acts were said to have devoted themselves to. But in the Evangelical services of my experience, there wasn't much of that. Even among the Restorationists, which have a weekly Communion (though it's taught as just a symbolic way to help you remember Jesus), it wasn't treated like a moment where we are "partakers of one Loaf", where we are made members of one another, where we "proclaim the death of the Lord," etc., it was just "that thing we do." The people had their own cliques and circles, and barely acknowledged the rest, even as they were supposed to have no "divisions" among them.

I suppose that individualism is the root of my objection. The mentality that it's ultimately all about me and my personal relationship with Jesus, so I don't really need anyone else.

 

[Albion]

What I desire, I guess, is what I've said before. The Word and the Eucharist are central to the Church's actions, along with prayer and community. These were the things that the believers in Acts were said to have devoted themselves to. But in the Evangelical services of my experience, there wasn't much of that. Even among the Restorationists, which have a weekly Communion (though it's taught as just a symbolic way to help you remember Jesus), it wasn't treated like a moment where we are "partakers of one Loaf", where we are made members of one another, where we "proclaim the death of the Lord," etc., it was just "that thing we do." The people had their own cliques and circles, and barely acknowledged the rest, even as they were supposed to have no "divisions" among them.

All right! Some confusion has been cleared up...and the neo-evangelical churches (that I have defended to some degree) are IMO guilty of exactly this which you have described. I agree.

I suppose that individualism is the root of my objection. The mentality that it's ultimately all about me and my personal relationship with Jesus, so I don't really need anyone else.

Hmmm. I'm not so sure about that. I guess I'm inclined to say that the ideal is to retain both--individual relationship and community.