What happened to grace?

[Adammi]

I was re-reading my Church's denomination's statement of faith this morning (with which I disagree on lots of points, but I feel that God wants me at this church regardless), and for the first time I realized that in its numerous points the word "grace" is not mentioned at all. None. Nada. Zilch.

I find this very sad. We can't have faith or do good works without God's grace and grace isn't even mentioned.

Why is this?

 

[Michie]

Explain.

What points?

Got a link to this statement of faith?

What do you mean by grace?

 

[ZuZu]

I agree with Michie...could you explain a little bit more or let us see the statement of faith? Speaking of grace...anyone ever read the book "What's so Amazing about Grace"? I thought it was an awesome book...

 

[kwanseemun]

Yeah, that bugs me about a lot of churches now...what denomination is it?

 

[HumbleMan]

Grace still abounds in many churches, even if it isn't advertised. This is why I personally don't like churhces to put statements of faith out there like it's set in stone. The congregations statement of faith should come from the preaching and the actions of the members.

 

[Michie]

I agree with Michie...could you explain a little bit more or let us see the statement of faith? Speaking of grace...anyone ever read the book "What's so Amazing about Grace"? I thought it was an awesome book...

Hi Karin!

I've got the book but haven't read it yet.

I guess I should...

 

[Im_A]

i personally feel that grace should never be advertised, or even in creeds. it should be the base of operations. the one thing that we expect and assume to be there at all times, no matter what.

 

[Joykins]

It's a great book

 

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

Grace is our creed, isnt it?

Or is it too dirty from association with non-condemnation and inclusion?

 

[Adammi]

Like I said, I don't agree with several of these and I don't like the wording of many of the ones that I do.

1. The verbal inspiration of the Bible.
2. One God, eternally existing in three persons; namely, the Father, Son and the Holy Ghost.
3. Jesus is the only begotten Son of the Father, conceived of the Holy Ghost, and born of the virgin Mary. He was crucified, buried and raised from the dead. He ascended to heaven and is today at the right hand of the Father as the Intercessor.
4. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God and that repentance is commanded of God for all and necessary for forgiveness of sins.
5. Justification, regeneration and the new birth are wrought by faith in the blood of Jesus Christ.
6. Sanctification is subsequent to the new birth, through faith in the blood of Jesus, through the Word and by the Holy Ghost.
7. Holiness to be God's standard of living for His people.
8. Baptism with the Holy Ghost subsequent to a clean heart.
9. Speaking with other tongues as the Spirit gives utterance is the initial evidence of the baptism of the Holy Ghost.
10. Water baptism is by immersion and all who repent should be baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.
11. Divine healing is provided for all in the atonement.
12. The Lord's Supper and washing of the saints' feet are ordained by Christ for our observance.
13. The premillennial second coming of Jesus; first, to resurrect the righteous dead and to catch away the living saints to Him in the air and, second, to reign on the earth a thousand years.
14. The bodily resurrection for all, resulting in eternal life for the righteous and eternal punishment for the wicked

 

[Michie]

I think grace is a given in Christianity. It's not always discussed in the Belief Statement.

I see a couple of thorns there myself.

Which one's bother you?

I just think things like this is a form of nitpicking.

Yes, it's good to state what you believe but not in a legalistic type of way.

 

[Adammi]

I think grace is a given in Christianity. It's not always discussed in the Belief Statement.

I see a couple of thorns there myself.

Which one's bother you?

I just think things like this is a form of nitpicking.

Yes, it's good to state what you believe but not in a legalistic type of way.

I totally and completely agree with you on the fact that statements of faith are good, I think that they are a necessity.

What exactly do you think is nitpicking?

The reasons that I wish it mentioned grace are almost inexpressible to me. God's grace just astonishes me beyond comrehension or explaining. I believe in the doctrines of grace (5 points of Calvinism, TULIP) and those are very important to me.

I'm not being judgemental or particular at all, but you ask for me to say what I disagreed with, so here it goes.

The verbal inspiration of the Bible.

I agree with this one, especially that its emphasis is on inspiration and does not imply dictation.

One God, eternally existing in three persons; namely, the Father, Son and the Holy Ghost.

Couldn't agree more.

Jesus is the only begotten Son of the Father, conceived of the Holy Ghost, and born of the virgin Mary. He was crucified, buried and raised from the dead. He ascended to heaven and is today at the right hand of the Father as the Intercessor.

I agree with this one, but I don't like the fact that it seems to imply that Jesus is the only intercessor.

All have sinned and come short of the glory of God and that repentance is commanded of God for all and necessary for forgiveness of sins.

I agree with the first part. The latter part worries me a bit thought. Repentace is necessary for the forgivness of sin? This seems to tell me that whether or not God will forgive of sin is partially dependent on whether or not we do good works.

Justification, regeneration and the new birth are wrought by faith in the blood of Jesus Christ.

I'm not so well-read on these terms, but as far as I know I agree, but I do really really wish that it would say that faith is not self-produced, but is a gift of grace from God.

Sanctification is subsequent to the new birth, through faith in the blood of Jesus, through the Word and by the Holy Ghost.

Do I believe in sanctification? Yes, of course. Do I at all believe in the historical movements associated with this one? NO.

Holiness to be God's standard of living for His people.

No. Faith-as given by God-is the standard.

Baptism with the Holy Ghost subsequent to a clean heart.

Yes.

Speaking with other tongues as the Spirit gives utterance is the initial evidence of the baptism of the Holy Ghost.

Tongues? Yes. Initial evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit? I'm not so sure.

Water baptism is by immersion and all who repent should be baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

Do I believe in baptism by immersion? Yes. Do I believe in baptism by sprinkling? Yes.

Divine healing is provided for all in the atonement.

Spiritual healing? Yes. Physical Healing? No.

The Lord's Supper and washing of the saints' feet are ordained by Christ for our observance.

I believe that Holy Communion is a sacrament and washing of feet is a tradition and a renewal of baptismal vows, but not a ordinace or sacrament.

The premillennial second coming of Jesus; first, to resurrect the righteous dead and to catch away the living saints to Him in the air and, second, to reign on the earth a thousand years.

No.

The bodily resurrection for all, resulting in eternal life for the righteous and eternal punishment for the wicked

Yes and no.



I know that my answers got sort of vague towards the end, but I really don't feel like critiquing this because like I said, I love the church, but not the doctrine.

 

[JulySheMustFly]

I agree with you about the wording. The wording gives of a feeling of sterness about God and coming to him. I think grace is expressed throught the statement of Christ dying for our sins. But the wording of these makes it seem like there are stipulations to His grace.

BTW - you prompted me to read my own churches "What we belive" and I dind't find the word grace in there at all, but it was very clear that the church is about living in grace and extending it as well.

 

[Michie]

Upon_This_Rock
I totally and completely agree with you on the fact that statements of faith are good, I think that they are a necessity.

What exactly do you think is nitpicking?

The reasons that I wish it mentioned grace are almost inexpressible to me. God's grace just astonishes me beyond comrehension or explaining. I believe in the doctrines of grace (5 points of Calvinism, TULIP) and those are very important to me.

Statements of belief rarely mention grace. They are simply statements on how things are done & the belief system of the particular assembly.

Christianity as a whole, no matter what sect is based on grace. That is the foundation of what Jesus did for us. I think most churches believe it is moot to include it in a statement of belief. It's just a given.

In theological statements of belief is where you'll find the discussions on grace. There is no theology in belief statements most of the time.

Upon_This_Rock
I'm not being judgemental or particular at all, but you ask for me to say what I disagreed with, so here it goes.

Ok.

Upon_This_Rock
I agree with this one, especially that its emphasis is on inspiration and does not imply dictation.

I believe Scripture to be sacred & holy but I realize that translation, tradition, culture in the time it was written. Neglecting these things make for a big missing chunks that some fail to take into account.

For instance, the whole mustard seed parable. Most fail to recognize that the reason that the mustard seed was used is that it grows into big invasive bushy plants. They spread. As in just a little seed of faith can turn into a big thing.

Head coverings for women. It was a cultural thing. A sign of marriage. It was encouraged as to not be seen as one of the pagans or temple prostitutes.

Tares were often planted in the fields by landowners that has enemies. Hence that reference & it's inference of enemies amongst the flock.

Upon_This_Rock
Couldn't agree more.

Same here. Father, Son, Holy Spirit.

Upon_This_Rock
I agree with this one, but I don't like the fact that it seems to imply that Jesus is the only intercessor.

I'm not sure what you mean by that. If Jesus was not the only Intercessor, the Creator, without Him nothing would exist...how could there be another? Why would Jesus die on the cross for our sins? What do you mean by intercessor?

Upon_This_Rock
I agree with the first part. The latter part worries me a bit thought. Repentace is necessary for the forgivness of sin? This seems to tell me that whether or not God will forgive of sin is partially dependent on whether or not we do good works.

I disagree. Remember John the Baptist? Repent & make way for the Lord? Jesus saying to sinners to go & sin no more? All the while showing great love & mercy? All throughout Scripture is a call to repentance. From beginning to end. Christianity is a free gift but it is a gift that requires stewardship & nurturing. It's a gift that transforms but we must accept it. Good works do not save us on their own but with the gift of salvation they are a natural fruit to the gift of salvation. Faith without work is dead. Remember the parable the field owner who left money to his workers. One simply buried the money.... Even the thief on the cross showed belief with repentance by defendind Christ.

Upon_This_Rock
I'm not so well-read on these terms, but as far as I know I agree, but I do really really wish that it would say that faith is not self-produced, but is a gift of grace from God.

I do not see where it says faith is self produced.

Upon_This_Rock
Do I believe in sanctification? Yes, of course. Do I at all believe in the historical movements associated with this one? NO.

Yes, the Holy Spirit calls & with freewill we can accept or reject. If we accept, transformation comes one way or the other. I don't see anything about historical movements however.

Upon_This_Rock
No. Faith-as given by God-is the standard.

I think you are seeing it as an either or. Even Jesus said you will know them by their fruits. Lot's of people say they believe but produce nothing. You gotta walk the walk too.

Upon_This_Rock
Yes.

Yes, I agree but remember, even those endowed with the HS can also grieve the HS.

Upon_This_Rock
Tongues? Yes. Initial evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit? I'm not so sure.

I do not agree that tongues is evidence of the Holy Spirit. Even Scripture states that there are different gifts for different believers. All this is to me is a control issue by human beings asking for proof that all in their flock has the HS. Well again, Jesus said you will know them by their fruits. It has nothing to do with any particular gift as proof.

Upon_This_Rock
Do I believe in baptism by immersion? Yes. Do I believe in baptism by sprinkling? Yes.

Agreed.

Upon_This_Rock
Spiritual healing? Yes. Physical Healing? No.

It's not an either/or.I agree but It does say divine healing. That would cover both areas as God see's fit. As The Lord prayed in the garden- Not my will, but Your will be done. No, Jesus was not saved from enduring the cross but divine healing took place through it. Healing takes place in all forms. Sometimes physical, sometimes not. I do not see where it states otherwise in the statement.

Upon_This_Rock
I believe that Holy Communion is a sacrament and washing of feet is a tradition and a renewal of baptismal vows, but not a ordinace or sacrament.

I agree but I do not see where the statement say's otherwise.

Upon_This_Rock
No.

I don't predict how Jesus will return. I just know He will. The details I find divisive so to me, this part is a non-issue.

Upon_This_Rock
Yes and no.

I think Scripture refers to this. I'm not sure I see a problem with this.

Upon_This_Rock
I know that my answers got sort of vague towards the end, but I really don't feel like critiquing this because like I said, I love the church, but not the doctrine.

You have to realize that Christianity is a journey. We all grow & evolves as time goes on. Things I would have agreed with 5 years ago I do not any longer. Things I disagreed with 5 years ago I now agree with.

I must say that if anyone is looking for the perfect Church where every dot & tittle is agreeable to your theology, you might be looking a long time.

You must move within the realm you are in now & act accordingly to where God leads you.

Where God leads you does not mean we will always like it or it will suit our personal tastes.

I'm kind of in a place like that myself right now.

 

[Adammi]

I really enjoyed your post Michie, especially the last part with which I believe very passionately (but that could change LOL).

Just a couple things I'd point out.

I'm not sure what you mean by that. If Jesus was not the only Intercessor, the Creator, without Him nothing would exist...how could there be another? Why would Jesus die on the cross for our sins? What do you mean by intercessor?

Yes, I agree with you completely on that, but in the statement of faith its intentions are to rule out in belief in the communion of the saints in heaven with us on earth.

I don't see anything about historial movements however.

This is the statement of faith of a denomination that, though it teaches this no longer, used to require women to wear dresses and restricted them from cutting their hair. This point (made in the 1940's) meant legalistic teachings such as that.

 

[Michie]

I really enjoyed your post Michie, especially the last part with which I believe very passionately (but that could change LOL).

Just a couple things I'd point out.

Ok.

Yes, I agree with you completely on that, but in the statement of faith its intentions are to rule out in belief in the communion of the saints in heaven with us on earth.

Ah, ok. I was wondering if this is what you meant. In that case, I agree. I believe that we are still in communion with the Church triumphant & aid the Church militant in their intentions. So we agree.

This is the statement of faith of a denomination that, though it teaches this no longer, used to require women to wear dresses and restricted them from cutting their hair. This point (made in the 1940's) meant legalistic teachings such as that.

Oh yeah. Culture, time, etc. I don't pay much attention to that stuff. Although I find it sad, I realize that we all stumble along in the context of our time & culture. Just like that whole limbo thing. I never believed it & look now...the Church agrees.

It was a thought, never a doctrine.

As far as the dresses & hair cutting...I tend to look at it as a form of worship. Yes it seems legalistic to us. But it is a way of setting oneself apart from the world. Just as the Amish & other sects do.

Do I think it's necessary?

No.

But I do not see it as harmful either if one agrees to those terms of worship.

 

[Adammi]

I started this thread also in SFPC since it would be more relevant and I am very surprized by some answers..
http://www.christianforums.com/t3926997http://www.christianforums.com/t3926997-what-happened-to-grace-2.html&page=3