LDS What distinct Mormon doctrines DO come from the Bible and/or BoM? pretty much none of them?

[Ran77]

Meanwhile the actual BoM says that God was sooooo not-ok with what BoM calls the "abomination" of polygamy that He sent Jews out of Israel and to America to escape it.

No. This is something you have made up. The Book of Mormon speaks to the reason why Lehi and others were led out of Israel and it was not to escape the abomination of polygamy. I challenge you to find a verse that actually supports your claim.

 

[Peter1000]

Indeed the Bible did not condemn it as explicitly as did the BoM flat out condemn it. Though the NT does flat out condemn it for church leaders and for all Christians that follow Christ's instruction for marriage.

Talking about making a spiritual wife out of Uriah the Hittite's wife, and condemning David for it? this is your defense?

God's law for kings
Deut 17: 17 He shall not multiply wives for himself, or else his heart will turn away; nor shall he greatly increase silver and gold for himself.






Isaiah 4 is God's curse saying that all the men would be killed and the 7 women would merely want to have the family name of the few remaining men left in Israel.



Which BoM says is an abomination and which caused Emma to suffer even by Mormon standards.

Meanwhile the NT says that no man can lead the church unless he meets the basics ... the very basics "husband of one wife" -- Titus 1

So then BoM calls it "abomination" and the NT flat out condemns any Christian leader that tries it -- and your response is to compare it to God stopping Abraham from murdering his son.

Interesting.

"To the LAW and to the testimony if they speak not according to this Word they have no light" Isiah 8:20

Gal 1
8 "But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!"

We believe that the Lord can give men the right to practice plural marriage if He wishes to. He has at times in the OT allowed that to happen. It is not controversial or is it arguable, God allowed men in the OT to have more than 1 wife.

This is a list of the type of men that were allowed by the Lord to have more than 1 wife:
prophets
kings
priests
government officials
regular men

There is even instructions given by the Lord in the statutes of the law as to how the Lord expects men to handle some situations in a plural marriage family.

Will the Lord have us live the law of plural marriage again? I don't know, only the Lord does.
It is squarely up to Him, not any of us. But since He has done it in the past, He may well need to do it in the future.

 

[Andrewn]

Will the Lord have us live the law of plural marriage again?

Probably soon polygamy will be lawful since gay marriage is now lawful.

 

[Peter1000]

Was his "gift of translation" defective?

The detail you are missing is that in 1 Cor 12 we have all the gifts of the Spirit listed - and "gift of translating one document to another -- from a hat" is not one of them.



Turns out - people translate from one document to another all the time.

They typically don't have to "hide the document" that they are translating from and "just produce the one translated to" then claim that as proof they are a prophet.

I am guessing we both would agree on that point.

No, as he matured in the translation process, he was given other ways to do it faster and better.

They typically don't have to "hide the document" that they are translating from and "just produce the one translated to" then claim that as proof they are a prophet.

You continually forget that JS was doing this under the direction of Jesus Christ. Jesus told him not to show the plates to anyone except for whom Jesus told him to show them. So if Jesus has not told you to show the scribe you are using at the time, and that scribe comes into the room, would you leave the plates on the table in plain view, or would you at least cover them with something? What would you do?

Nobody that I know has ever endeavored to produce a book like this one. So it is hard to say what people would say about it.

I am guessing we both would agree on that point.

I would agree that people do not write books to prove they are prophets of God.

However, if you were Jesus and you wanted to restore your true church to the earth, and you wanted to get a lot of people instantly into the church to start building up the kingdom of God, why not allow JS to translate an incredible book about Jesus in the Americas that people would want to read and start a mighty work among the people, fast.

It is the people around the eastearn US that said: after I read the BOM I realized we have a prophet in our midst, a prophet like unto Moses of old.

The BOM first and formost testifies of Jesus Christ, that He is the Son of God and was made flesh and came to earth to atone for the sins of all mankind. He was resurrected and in that resurrected body, he visited the people in the Americas to fulfill 600 years of prophecies that Jesus Christ would appear to these people too.

The BOM also testifies, just from its existence, that the one you translated it, did so by the gift and power of God, and is with Jesus in the restoring of His true church to the earth in these last days.

The BOM testifies that Jesus is the Son of God, and that JS is His prophet.

 

[BobRyan]

The scripture you keep quoting Deut 17: 17 is about the king who is not to amass wealth (horses, wives, silver, and gold) and he shall read and keep the commands. It does not say he can have no silver, no horses, no wives, or no gold.

Granted - context is everything -- when showing God meant "husband of one wife" in that case.

Duet 17
16 Moreover, he shall not multiply horses for himself, nor shall he cause the people to return to Egypt to multiply horses, since the Lord has said to you, ‘You shall never again return that way.’ 17 He shall not multiply wives for himself, or else his heart will turn away; nor shall he greatly increase silver and gold for himself.

(multiply.. as in "more than one" in the case of the wives". not "you must have none")


So then Titus 1
5 For this reason I left you in Crete, that you would set in order what remains and appoint elders in every city as I directed you, 6 namely, if any man is above reproach, the husband of one wife, having children who believe, not accused of dissipation or rebellion.

Gen 2
“And Adam said: “This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.” Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh. ” | Genesis 2:23-25

“Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.” | 1 Timothy 3:12

Cain was the father of the wicked in the book of Genesis - it is one of his wicked descendants that started the practice of polygamy.

Gen 4
17 Cain had relations with his wife and she conceived, and gave birth to Enoch; and he built a city, and called the name of the city Enoch, after the name of his son. 18 Now to Enoch was born Irad, and Irad became the father of Mehujael, and Mehujael became the father of Methushael, and Methushael became the father of Lamech. 19 Lamech took to himself two wives: the name of the one was Adah, and the name of the other, Zillah

23 Lamech said to his wives,

“Adah and Zillah,
Listen to my voice,
You wives of Lamech,
Give heed to my speech,
For I have killed a man for wounding me;
And a boy for striking me;
24 If Cain is avenged sevenfold,
Then Lamech seventy-sevenfold.”


These are not "polygamy for all" texts.

I am assuming that David and Bathsheba were married after the death of Uriah.

IF I were talking with someone that did not read the Book of Mormon that might be confusing.

I still do not understand the term "spiritual wife". What is a spiritual wife? How do you know that David did not have children with the wives of Saul?

1. He did not even have the wives of Saul as his wives. All that was Saul's fell into David's hands at Saul's death but he treated them with respect not as "stolen wives" - but as friends.

2 Samuel 12:8 "I also gave you your master’s house and your master’s wives into your care

Does not say " your master's wives to have as your own wife". Details matter.

=====================================

And for those who read the Book of Mormon:


Jacob 1:15

[15] And now it came to pass that the people of Nephi, under the reign of the second king, began to grow hard in their hearts, and indulge themselves somewhat in wicked practices, such as like unto David of old desiring many wives and concubines, and also Solomon, his son.

=====================================
Would it be fair to say that LDS members don't actually read all of the BoM?

Jacob 2:24-29 states:

24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.

25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.

[31] For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem, yea, and in all the lands of my people, because of the wickedness and abominations of their husbands.
[32] And I will not suffer, saith the Lord of Hosts, that the cries of the fair daughters of this people, which I have led out of the land of Jerusalem, shall come up unto me against the men of my people, saith the Lord of Hosts.
[33] For they shall not lead away captive the daughters of my people because of their tenderness, save I shall visit them with a sore curse, even unto destruction; for they shall not commit whoredoms, like unto them of old, saith the Lord of Hosts.
[34] And now behold, my brethren, ye know that these commandments were given to our father, Lehi; wherefore, ye have known them before; and ye have come unto great condemnation; for ye have done these things which ye ought not to have done.
[35] Behold, ye have done greater iniquities than the Lamanites, our brethren. Ye have broken the hearts of your tender wives, and lost the confidence of your children, because of your bad examples before them; and the sobbings of their hearts ascend up to God against you. And because of the strictness of the word of God, which cometh down against you, many hearts died, pierced with deep wounds.

=========================== begin quote D&C

Doctrine and Cov chpt 42:22 49:15-16

42:22

22 Thou shalt love thy wife with all thy heart, and shalt cleave unto her and none else.

========================

So then are you really trying to resurrect the abomination of polygamy that your own BoM condemns??

 

[BobRyan]

That is one way he translated the BOM

Was his "gift of translation" defective?

If it is a non-biblical topic of translating a document from a hat, then everything you do is non-biblical.

The detail you are missing is that in 1 Cor 12 we have all the gifts of the Spirit listed - and "gift of translating one document to another -- from a hat" is not one of them.

IOW, of course it was non-biblical for JS to translate documents, no matter how he translated them.

Turns out - people translate from one document to another all the time.

They typically don't have to "hide the document" that they are translating from and "just produce the one translated to" then claim that as proof they are a prophet.

I am guessing we both would agree on that point.

======================================================

No, as he matured in the translation process, he was given other ways to do it faster and better.

totally misses the point.

You continually forget that JS was doing this under the direction of Jesus Christ.

No he wasn't. We have a prophet in the 1800's who WAS writing under the direction of Jesus Christ and it is only the same as we see in actual Bible prophets... has nothing at all to do with sticking one's head in a hat and "translating an unseen document".

In all of the BoM there is nothing about "Show the plates to no man" as if that were a rule from God "about documents".

In all of the OT there was no "translated this document into another language then show the original to no one... keep it a secret".

Jesus told him not to show the plates to anyone

No he didn't. JS just made that up because he had no actual document.

=================================

The practice of taking "the thing that is to be tested to see if it is true" and inserting it into a circular-argument where you rely on the assertion being test as the "proof" of itself. makes no sense.

The argument that "yes but prophets in more modern times have to resort to goofy methods that are not in the Bible" is not a valid argument. We already have a prophet from the 1800's that did no such thing.

So if Jesus has not told you to show the scribe you are using at the time, and that scribe comes into the room, would you leave the plates on the table in plain view, or would you at least cover them with something? What would you do?

There are many examples in the Bible of scribes writing - and no explicit command from God about "hiding stuff" -- the argument about the plates does not make any sense and is the very questionable claim that is to be proven.. rather than "assumed".

Nobody that I know has ever endeavored to produce a book like this one.

Then you have not read much about Samuel Spaulding who actually wrote the manuscript for the BoM.

I would agree that people do not write books to prove they are prophets of God.

Specifically - they do not "translate a document" and then say "hey look I can translate something -- so the Bible says anyone that can translate is a prophet - therefore I am a prophet".

However, if you were Jesus and you wanted to restore your true church to the earth, and you wanted to get a lot of people instantly into the church to start building up the kingdom of God, why not allow JS to translate

We already have a prophet that Jesus wanted to use to give 60,000 pages of manuscript to the church in the 1800's ... and it never had anything at all to do with "the unknown gift of translation" to prove that such a person is a prophet. RATHER God gives direct messages and those messages are written down... a manuscript created then translated into many languages. With NONE of those translators claiming that they must be a prophet since they clearly translated something.

The BOM first and formost testifies of Jesus Christ, that He is the Son of God and was made flesh and came to earth to atone for the sins of all mankind.

The Bible had already done that 2000 years before

He was resurrected and in that resurrected body, he visited the people in the Americas .

the people "in the Americas" according to the BoM were here to escape polygamy.

 

[BobRyan]

The BOM also testifies, just from its existence, that the one you translated it, did so by the gift and power of God, and is with Jesus in the restoring of His true church to the earth in these last days.

The BOM testifies that Jesus is the Son of God, and that JS is His prophet.

1. The writers of the BoM document did not live at the same time as JS -- according to the BoM so the BoM is not preaching/teaching that JS had the gift of prophecy.
2. The BoM therefore makes no claim that the "gift of translation" is even a spiritual gift or prophetic gift at all.
3. This thread asks for doctrines unique to the Mormon church that come from the BoM.. I.E. it asks for the doctrine preached by the Mormon missionaries in 1831 when all they had "was the BoM". So far no doctrine of the Mormon church has been mentioned and we are on page 3 of the thread.
4. Many people have argued that the reason for that is that the BoM is not even a document written by JS -- it is a manuscript written by Samuel Spaulding and JS simply attached a preface to it. So not surprisingly - it only teaches doctrine that Spaulding believed, which apparently included a very strong statement condemning polygamy as abomination before God.

 

[BobRyan]

And for those who read the Book of Mormon:


Jacob 1:15

[15] And now it came to pass that the people of Nephi, under the reign of the second king, began to grow hard in their hearts, and indulge themselves somewhat in wicked practices, such as like unto David of old desiring many wives and concubines, and also Solomon, his son.

by contrast

We believe that the Lord can give men the right to practice plural marriage if He wishes to. .

=====================================
Would it be fair to say that LDS members don't actually read all of the BoM?

Jacob 2:24-29 states:

24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.

25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.

[31] For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem, yea, and in all the lands of my people, because of the wickedness and abominations of their husbands.
[32] And I will not suffer, saith the Lord of Hosts, that the cries of the fair daughters of this people, which I have led out of the land of Jerusalem, shall come up unto me against the men of my people, saith the Lord of Hosts.
[33] For they shall not lead away captive the daughters of my people because of their tenderness, save I shall visit them with a sore curse, even unto destruction; for they shall not commit whoredoms, like unto them of old, saith the Lord of Hosts.
[34] And now behold, my brethren, ye know that these commandments were given to our father, Lehi; wherefore, ye have known them before; and ye have come unto great condemnation; for ye have done these things which ye ought not to have done.
[35] Behold, ye have done greater iniquities than the Lamanites, our brethren. Ye have broken the hearts of your tender wives, and lost the confidence of your children, because of your bad examples before them; and the sobbings of their hearts ascend up to God against you. And because of the strictness of the word of God, which cometh down against you, many hearts died, pierced with deep wounds.

=========================== begin quote D&C

Doctrine and Cov chpt 42:22 49:15-16

42:22

22 Thou shalt love thy wife with all thy heart, and shalt cleave unto her and none else.

========================

So then are you really trying to resurrect the abomination of polygamy that your own BoM condemns??

No. This is something you have made up. The Book of Mormon speaks to the reason why Lehi and others were led out of Israel and it was not to escape the abomination of polygamy. I challenge you to find a verse that actually supports your claim.

Are you reading the posts so far??

for example... this one.

Jacob 1:15

[15] And now it came to pass that the people of Nephi, under the reign of the second king, began to grow hard in their hearts, and indulge themselves somewhat in wicked practices, such as like unto David of old desiring many wives and concubines, and also Solomon, his son.

=====================================
Would it be fair to say that LDS members don't actually read all of the BoM?

Jacob 2:24-29 states:

24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.

25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.

[31] For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem, yea, and in all the lands of my people, because of the wickedness and abominations of their husbands.
[32] And I will not suffer, saith the Lord of Hosts, that the cries of the fair daughters of this people, which I have led out of the land of Jerusalem, shall come up unto me against the men of my people, saith the Lord of Hosts.
[33] For they shall not lead away captive the daughters of my people because of their tenderness, save I shall visit them with a sore curse, even unto destruction; for they shall not commit whoredoms, like unto them of old, saith the Lord of Hosts.
[34] And now behold, my brethren, ye know that these commandments were given to our father, Lehi; wherefore, ye have known them before; and ye have come unto great condemnation; for ye have done these things which ye ought not to have done.
[35] Behold, ye have done greater iniquities than the Lamanites, our brethren. Ye have broken the hearts of your tender wives, and lost the confidence of your children, because of your bad examples before them; and the sobbings of their hearts ascend up to God against you. And because of the strictness of the word of God, which cometh down against you, many hearts died, pierced with deep wounds.

=========================== begin quote D&C

Doctrine and Cov chpt 42:22 49:15-16

42:22
22 Thou shalt love thy wife with all thy heart, and shalt cleave unto her and none else.

49:15-16
15 And again, verily I say unto you, that whoso forbiddeth to marry is not ordained of God, for marriage is ordained of God unto man.
16 Wherefore, it is lawful that he should have one wife, and they twain shall be one flesh, and all this that the earth might answer the end of its creation;
17 And that it might be filled with the measure of man, according to his creation before the world was made.




Jacob 2:24-29 states:
24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.
25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.

Such an abomination that the BoM says the entire Mormon story had to be created - calling Israel out of the middle east to get them away from such abomination.

And then "some spirit" tells Smith to get right back into it? I wonder what spirit that would be?

"To the LAW and to the testimony if they speak not according to this Word they have no light" Isiah 8:20

Gal 1
8 "But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!"

 

[BobRyan]

We believe that the Lord can give men the right to practice plural marriage if He wishes to. .

Which you apparently do NOT get from the BoM

And for those who read the Book of Mormon:

Jacob 1:15

[15] And now it came to pass that the people of Nephi, under the reign of the second king, began to grow hard in their hearts, and indulge themselves somewhat in wicked practices, such as like unto David of old desiring many wives and concubines, and also Solomon, his son.

by contrast


=====================================
Would it be fair to say that LDS members don't actually read all of the BoM?

Jacob 2:24-29 states:

24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.

25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.

[31] For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem, yea, and in all the lands of my people, because of the wickedness and abominations of their husbands.
[32] And I will not suffer, saith the Lord of Hosts, that the cries of the fair daughters of this people, which I have led out of the land of Jerusalem, shall come up unto me against the men of my people, saith the Lord of Hosts.
[33] For they shall not lead away captive the daughters of my people because of their tenderness, save I shall visit them with a sore curse, even unto destruction; for they shall not commit whoredoms, like unto them of old, saith the Lord of Hosts.
[34] And now behold, my brethren, ye know that these commandments were given to our father, Lehi; wherefore, ye have known them before; and ye have come unto great condemnation; for ye have done these things which ye ought not to have done.
[35] Behold, ye have done greater iniquities than the Lamanites, our brethren. Ye have broken the hearts of your tender wives, and lost the confidence of your children, because of your bad examples before them; and the sobbings of their hearts ascend up to God against you. And because of the strictness of the word of God, which cometh down against you, many hearts died, pierced with deep wounds.

=========================== begin quote D&C

Doctrine and Cov chpt 42:22 49:15-16

42:22

22 Thou shalt love thy wife with all thy heart, and shalt cleave unto her and none else.

========================

So then are you really trying to resurrect the abomination of polygamy that your own BoM condemns??



Are you reading the posts so far??

for example... this one.

 

[He is the way]

Granted - context is everything -- when showing God meant "husband of one wife" in that case.

Duet 17
16 Moreover, he shall not multiply horses for himself, nor shall he cause the people to return to Egypt to multiply horses, since the Lord has said to you, ‘You shall never again return that way.’ 17 He shall not multiply wives for himself, or else his heart will turn away; nor shall he greatly increase silver and gold for himself.

(multiply.. as in "more than one" in the case of the wives". not "you must have none")


So then Titus 1
5 For this reason I left you in Crete, that you would set in order what remains and appoint elders in every city as I directed you, 6 namely, if any man is above reproach, the husband of one wife, having children who believe, not accused of dissipation or rebellion.

Gen 2
“And Adam said: “This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.” Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh. ” | Genesis 2:23-25

“Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.” | 1 Timothy 3:12

Cain was the father of the wicked in the book of Genesis - it is one of his wicked descendants that started the practice of polygamy.

Gen 4
17 Cain had relations with his wife and she conceived, and gave birth to Enoch; and he built a city, and called the name of the city Enoch, after the name of his son. 18 Now to Enoch was born Irad, and Irad became the father of Mehujael, and Mehujael became the father of Methushael, and Methushael became the father of Lamech. 19 Lamech took to himself two wives: the name of the one was Adah, and the name of the other, Zillah

23 Lamech said to his wives,

“Adah and Zillah,
Listen to my voice,
You wives of Lamech,
Give heed to my speech,
For I have killed a man for wounding me;
And a boy for striking me;
24 If Cain is avenged sevenfold,
Then Lamech seventy-sevenfold.”


These are not "polygamy for all" texts.



IF I were talking with someone that did not read the Book of Mormon that might be confusing.



1. He did not even have the wives of Saul as his wives. All that was Saul's fell into David's hands at Saul's death but he treated them with respect not as "stolen wives" - but as friends.

2 Samuel 12:8 "I also gave you your master’s house and your master’s wives into your care

Does not say " your master's wives to have as your own wife". Details matter.

=====================================

And for those who read the Book of Mormon:


Jacob 1:15

[15] And now it came to pass that the people of Nephi, under the reign of the second king, began to grow hard in their hearts, and indulge themselves somewhat in wicked practices, such as like unto David of old desiring many wives and concubines, and also Solomon, his son.

=====================================
Would it be fair to say that LDS members don't actually read all of the BoM?

Jacob 2:24-29 states:

24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.

25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.

[31] For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem, yea, and in all the lands of my people, because of the wickedness and abominations of their husbands.
[32] And I will not suffer, saith the Lord of Hosts, that the cries of the fair daughters of this people, which I have led out of the land of Jerusalem, shall come up unto me against the men of my people, saith the Lord of Hosts.
[33] For they shall not lead away captive the daughters of my people because of their tenderness, save I shall visit them with a sore curse, even unto destruction; for they shall not commit whoredoms, like unto them of old, saith the Lord of Hosts.
[34] And now behold, my brethren, ye know that these commandments were given to our father, Lehi; wherefore, ye have known them before; and ye have come unto great condemnation; for ye have done these things which ye ought not to have done.
[35] Behold, ye have done greater iniquities than the Lamanites, our brethren. Ye have broken the hearts of your tender wives, and lost the confidence of your children, because of your bad examples before them; and the sobbings of their hearts ascend up to God against you. And because of the strictness of the word of God, which cometh down against you, many hearts died, pierced with deep wounds.

=========================== begin quote D&C

Doctrine and Cov chpt 42:22 49:15-16

42:22

22 Thou shalt love thy wife with all thy heart, and shalt cleave unto her and none else.

========================

So then are you really trying to resurrect the abomination of polygamy that your own BoM condemns??

This scripture relates to polygamy:

(New Testament | 2 Corinthians 3:6)

6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Abraham and Jacob both had more than one wife and they were not condemned by God for doing so because their heart was right with the Lord. God knows the intent of the heart. When Joseph Smith was commanded to be sealed to other women he was reluctant to do so. It was only after the angel had appeared to him the third time, this time with a sword, that he did as he was commanded to do. At least one of these women who was sealed to Joseph Smith received a revelation that she should be sealed to Joseph Smith. Heber C. Kimball's wife Helen also had a vision that plural marriage was from God. I believe that God will work out any problems concerning polygamy at a future time. At this time polygamy is no longer practiced.

 

[Ran77]

Are you reading the posts so far??

for example... this one.

Yep. Have you read my post where I show that the verse you quoted doesn't actually state what you claim it did? I will post it again.

Jacob 1:15

[15] And now it came to pass that the people of Nephi, under the reign of the second king, began to grow hard in their hearts, and indulge themselves somewhat in wicked practices, such as like unto David of old desiring many wives and concubines, and also Solomon, his son.

Nothing in this verse indicates that this wicked practice is the reason Lehi came to the new lands across the ocean. It doesn't exist. I also pointed out that this is in regards to the second king, who rules after they had already arrived. Which means it has no connection to the reason why they left. Your comment is doubly flawed.

I will challenge you again. Post a scripture that states Lehi left Israel because of polygamy.

 

[Andrewn]

Jacob 1:15

[15] And now it came to pass that the people of Nephi, under the reign of the second king, began to grow hard in their hearts, and indulge themselves somewhat in wicked practices, such as like unto David of old desiring many wives and concubines, and also Solomon, his son.

Nothing in this verse indicates that this wicked practice is the reason Lehi came to the new lands across the ocean. It doesn't exist.

It may not be the reason but it is still condemned. Why do you keep the BOM anyway when it contradicts so much with your later revelations in the D&C and the Pearl of Great price?

 

[Ran77]

It may not be the reason but . . .

There is no but. BobRyan claimed that it was the reason Lehi left Israel and it wasn't. His premise is based on something that isn't true. When you start with false data there is no way to turn that around to an argument with any validity. Game over. Better luck next time and all of that.

Why do you keep the BOM anyway when it contradicts so much with your later revelations in the D&C and the Pearl of Great price?

Sort of like this claim. The Book of Mormon doesn't contradict with the other scriptures. What contradicts are the interpretations our critics choose to give to those verses. Changing what we believe, what we understand the scriptures to say, is not the same as an actual contradiction within our doctrine.

The Book of Mormon is a treasure of inspirational information that improves my life on a daily basis. That's why I keep it. (Since you asked.)

 

[Andrewn]

The Book of Mormon is a treasure of inspirational information that improves my life on a daily basis. That's why I keep it. (Since you asked.)

From the parts I read, I seems like an edifying legend and may get to read it all one day.

 

[BobRyan]

And for those who read the Book of Mormon:


Jacob 1:15

[15] And now it came to pass that the people of Nephi, under the reign of the second king, began to grow hard in their hearts, and indulge themselves somewhat in wicked practices, such as like unto David of old desiring many wives and concubines, and also Solomon, his son.

by contrast

We believe that the Lord can give men the right to practice plural marriage if He wishes to. .

=====================================
Would it be fair to say that LDS members don't actually read all of the BoM?

Jacob 2:24-29 states:

24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.

25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.

[31] For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem, yea, and in all the lands of my people, because of the wickedness and abominations of their husbands.
[32] And I will not suffer, saith the Lord of Hosts, that the cries of the fair daughters of this people, which I have led out of the land of Jerusalem, shall come up unto me against the men of my people, saith the Lord of Hosts.
[33] For they shall not lead away captive the daughters of my people because of their tenderness, save I shall visit them with a sore curse, even unto destruction; for they shall not commit whoredoms, like unto them of old, saith the Lord of Hosts.
[34] And now behold, my brethren, ye know that these commandments were given to our father, Lehi; wherefore, ye have known them before; and ye have come unto great condemnation; for ye have done these things which ye ought not to have done.
[35] Behold, ye have done greater iniquities than the Lamanites, our brethren. Ye have broken the hearts of your tender wives, and lost the confidence of your children, because of your bad examples before them; and the sobbings of their hearts ascend up to God against you. And because of the strictness of the word of God, which cometh down against you, many hearts died, pierced with deep wounds.

=========================== begin quote D&C

Doctrine and Cov chpt 42:22 49:15-16

42:22

22 Thou shalt love thy wife with all thy heart, and shalt cleave unto her and none else.

========================

So then are you really trying to resurrect the abomination of polygamy that your own BoM condemns??

No. This is something you have made up. The Book of Mormon speaks to the reason why Lehi and others were led out of Israel and it was not to escape the abomination of polygamy. I challenge you to find a verse that actually supports your claim.

Are you reading the posts so far??

for example... this one.

Jacob 1:15

[15] And now it came to pass that the people of Nephi, under the reign of the second king, began to grow hard in their hearts, and indulge themselves somewhat in wicked practices, such as like unto David of old desiring many wives and concubines, and also Solomon, his son.

=====================================
Would it be fair to say that LDS members don't actually read all of the BoM?

Jacob 2:24-29 states:

24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.

25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.

[31] For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem, yea, and in all the lands of my people, because of the wickedness and abominations of their husbands.
[32] And I will not suffer, saith the Lord of Hosts, that the cries of the fair daughters of this people, which I have led out of the land of Jerusalem, shall come up unto me against the men of my people, saith the Lord of Hosts.
[33] For they shall not lead away captive the daughters of my people because of their tenderness, save I shall visit them with a sore curse, even unto destruction; for they shall not commit whoredoms, like unto them of old, saith the Lord of Hosts.
[34] And now behold, my brethren, ye know that these commandments were given to our father, Lehi; wherefore, ye have known them before; and ye have come unto great condemnation; for ye have done these things which ye ought not to have done.
[35] Behold, ye have done greater iniquities than the Lamanites, our brethren. Ye have broken the hearts of your tender wives, and lost the confidence of your children, because of your bad examples before them; and the sobbings of their hearts ascend up to God against you. And because of the strictness of the word of God, which cometh down against you, many hearts died, pierced with deep wounds.

=========================== begin quote D&C

Doctrine and Cov chpt 42:22 49:15-16

42:22
22 Thou shalt love thy wife with all thy heart, and shalt cleave unto her and none else.

49:15-16
15 And again, verily I say unto you, that whoso forbiddeth to marry is not ordained of God, for marriage is ordained of God unto man.
16 Wherefore, it is lawful that he should have one wife, and they twain shall be one flesh, and all this that the earth might answer the end of its creation;
17 And that it might be filled with the measure of man, according to his creation before the world was made.




Jacob 2:24-29 states:
24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.
25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.

Such an abomination that the BoM says the entire Mormon story had to be created - calling Israel out of the middle east to get them away from such abomination.

And then "some spirit" tells Smith to get right back into it? I wonder what spirit that would be?

"To the LAW and to the testimony if they speak not according to this Word they have no light" Isiah 8:20

Gal 1
8 "But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!"

Jacob 1:15

[15] And now it came to pass that the people of Nephi, under the reign of the second king, began to grow hard in their hearts, and indulge themselves somewhat in wicked practices, such as like unto David of old desiring many wives and concubines, and also Solomon, his son.

Nothing in this verse indicates that this wicked practice is the reason Lehi came to the new lands across the ocean

Please serious - at least for a minute.

by contrast we have this actual fact in the book itself


Jacob 2:24-29 states:
24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.
25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.

 

[BobRyan]

There is no but. BobRyan claimed that it was the reason Lehi left Israel and it wasn't. His premise is based on something that isn't true.

Until you read - this

Jacob 2:24-29 states:
24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.
25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.

 

[Ran77]

Until you read - this

Jacob 2:24-29 states:
24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.
25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.

Yep. It still doesn't say anything about polygamy being the reason Lehi left Jerusalem. It only mentions that God did this to raise up a righteous branch from the descendants of Joseph. You're the one making that connection.

Anyone actually interested in why Lehi led his family out of Jerusalem can go the beginning of the Book of Mormon and find the reason.

In 1 Nephi, Lehi is commanded to prophesy of the destruction of Jerusalem because of the many iniquities of its people. Then in the second chapter,

1 For behold, it came to pass that the Lord spake unto my father, yea, even in a dream, and said unto him: Blessed art thou Lehi, because of the things which thou hast done; and because thou hast been faithful and declared unto this people the things which I commanded thee, behold, they seek to take away thy life.

2 And it came to pass that the Lord commanded my father, even in a dream, that he should take his family and depart into the wilderness.

Nephi left Jerusalem because God commanded him to do so. The reason was because the people of Jerusalem were angry with Lehi for prophesying their destruction and wanted to take his life. Jerusalem, like Nineveh, was slated for destruction because of their many abominations. What these verses do not say is that Lehi left Jerusalem because of polygamy. Polygamy may have been one of the abominations in play, but it is not the reason Lehi and his family left.


As to the topic of polygamy, verse 23 mentions why this was a problem at the time.

23 But the word of God burdens me because of your grosser crimes. For behold, thus saith the Lord: This people begin to wax in iniquity; they understand not the scriptures, for they seek to excuse themselves in committing whoredoms, because of the things which were written concerning David, and Solomon his son.

There is a marked difference in what many of the Nephites were doing and the plural marriage that was promoted by God in the Old Testament.

Further:

34 And now behold, my brethren, ye know that these commandments were given to our father, Lehi; wherefore, ye have known them before; and ye have come unto great condemnation; for ye have done these things which ye ought not to have done.

The Nephites were expressly forbidden to participate in polygamy. Why has God promoted polygamy at times and forbidden it at others? Whatever the reason, it applies to mainstream Christianity and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints equally. The same Bible verses that permit polygamy in the Old Testament provide the answer for both groups. In other words, you tell me why polygamy was approved of by God in some circumstances and I can send that answer right back at you for justification of our beliefs.

 

[BobRyan]

Jacob 2:24-29 states:
24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.
25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.

Yep. It still doesn't say anything about polygamy being the reason Lehi left Jerusalem. It only mentions that God did this to raise up a righteous branch from the descendants of Joseph.

You respond "as if" all I had posted was --

Jacob 2:25 "I want to raise up a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph."

There are several people reading this thread - do you really think we are not able to read any part of that quote except for "raise up a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph." seriously?? that's the "solution"??

You might as well post "you are right...and I have no answer" as try the tactic you are resorting to.

 

[Peter1000]

Jacob 2:24-29 states:
24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.
25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.



You respond "as if" all I had posted was --

Jacob 2:25 "I want to raise up a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph."

There are several people reading this thread - do you really think we are not able to read any part of that quote except for "raise up a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph." seriously?? that's the "solution"??

You might as well post "you are right...and I have no answer" as try the tactic you are resorting to.

Well at least you now know the reason Lehi left Jerusalem. I hope.

 

[mmksparbud]

Well at least you now know the reason Lehi left Jerusalem. I hope.

Well, I do----

Jacob 2:24-29 states:
24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.
25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.


Seems pretty clear to me.