What de-conversion feels like

[Rize]

Yes, my astonishment was that someone would even contemplate such a horrendous experiment.
Hence the

Oh, my resolution is low, didn't discern the eek's, thought they were just wows or something. However, I must say that a bed could be made into a scale without really sacrificing any comfort on the part of the patient. Especially today. However, you'd want to get their permission before doing such an experiment... and that would be a bit odd.

 

[Lokmer]

Yes, my astonishment was that someone would even contemplate such a horrendous experiment.
Hence the

Well, the idea that the soul exists and physically animates the body is one that most people still unconsciously hold to. But it is a *testable* hypothesis. Ancient peoples, even up through the enlightenment, believed that the spirit was the breath, and left the body at death (ruach in Hebrew is both breath and spirit, pneuma in Greek is both wind and spirit, "spirit" in English means gas - as in Spirit of Ether or alcohol Spirits, meaning essences which have been distilled out).

So, it might be macabre, but if you make a claim in the age of science, someone will test it. And, really, it's not any more macabre than dissection.

-Lokmer

 

[Cat59]

Well, the idea that the soul exists and physically animates the body is one that most people still unconsciously hold to. But it is a *testable* hypothesis. Ancient peoples, even up through the enlightenment, believed that the spirit was the breath, and left the body at death (ruach in Hebrew is both breath and spirit, pneuma in Greek is both wind and spirit, "spirit" in English means gas - as in Spirit of Ether or alcohol Spirits, meaning essences which have been distilled out).

So, it might be macabre, but if you make a claim in the age of science, someone will test it. And, really, it's not any more macabre than dissection.

-Lokmer

That's true and as a medic I've done that (dissection).
I suppose it was a gut instinct thing, having been at many deaths or shortly after to certify rather any thought out reasoning...

 

[Lokmer]

That's true and as a medic I've done that (dissection).
I suppose it was a gut instinct thing, having been at many deaths or shortly after to certify rather any thought out reasoning...

That makes perfect sense.
-Lokmer

 

[LibertyChic]

Oh, my resolution is low, didn't discern the eek's, thought they were just wows or something. However, I must say that a bed could be made into a scale without really sacrificing any comfort on the part of the patient. Especially today. However, you'd want to get their permission before doing such an experiment... and that would be a bit odd.

I would volunteer for such an experiment. Especially if I knew my death was imminent.

 

[b*unique]

i don't think it's "the Lord" that we actively hate.

materialist!

 

[And-U-Say]

I don't think it's about wanting to change at all in most cases. When my deconversion began, it wasn't because I wanted to go from being a Christian or a nonChristian. I wanted some things in my life to be different but I didn't equate those things as being a result of acting out on a completely wrong world view.

I think the vast majority of people that deconvert just kind of stumble on to it. Most religious beliefs rely heavily on double thinking to be maintained. The problem with that is that double thinking only works so long as the person doing it is not aware that they are doing it. Once a person becomes aware that they are double thinking, it stops working and the whole system comes unraveled. This happens whether the person wants it to or not.

That's what happened to me. Since my deconversion, I have watched two other people deconvert as well and the same thing happened to all of us, more or less. We noticed that some things weren't adding up. The answers we had been just accepting relied on double thinking to be accepted. We noticed that and, as mentioned before, double thinking only works if you are not aware of doing it. Before long, the whole system came unraveled. There was never, at any point in time, a decision on any of our parts to just stop believing. It just happened.

One of the BEST POSTS EVER!!

 

[radorth]

Man I must be reading some spurious speeches by Douglass the "atheist." In this one he talks about the end of slavery being "God's cause." I've never heard an atheist say anything like that- in fact they say quite the opposite

http://www.ipoaa.com/frederick_douglass_fourth_july.htm

Rad

 

[radorth]

Well Lokmer, you really should read the speech you quoted from out of context and explain how an "atheist" quotes major passages from the Bible in three places, calls slavery opposed to the "Jaws of God," says the church in England is fulfilling its "true mission" by resisting slavery and mentions four famous Christian ministers as being on the forefront of the abolitionist movement while he mentions no non-Christians.

I tell ya, "no atheist ever spoke like this atheist!"

Criminy. Douglass must have been a grade A nutball or an incredibly dishonest atheist if he was one. Right?

Rad

 

[Cat59]

I think our understanding of another is difficult because we are coming from 2 different approaches.
I can see what you are saying. From a viewpoint that does not believe in the type of spiritual rebirth you are talking about, I would say that if you examined a "born again" Christian in minute detail- their thoughts, beliefs, attitude, prayer life, and their intimate view of their personal relationship with Jesus and compared it with the people who are posting on this thread when they were calling themselves "born again", you would find no difference.
To you, I think you are saying, it is because either they were not truly in a relationship with Jesus or that they were and will one day return, being inevitably drawn back to that which they cannot resist.
To someone who does not believe in Jesus anymore, they have experienced a great loss, because whatever you say cannot undo the fact that their beliefs, their relationship to them was genuine, full of meaning and often the be all and end all of their life. And not believing as you do in this spiritual rebirth, they quite rightly point to you and say, Rad, I was once like you.
Until suddenly, one day, it all became so much straw.

Once a person becomes aware that they are double thinking, it stops working and the whole system comes unraveled. This happens whether the person wants it to or not.

And thinking, and getting back to the OP for some people deconversion feels anything but good, it feels scary, frightening, worrying, depressing, saddening and overwhelming.
But at some stage it also becomes inevitable and also very clearly the right thing to do.

 

[Lokmer]

Well Lokmer, you really should read the speech you quoted from out of context and explain how an "atheist" quotes major passages from the Bible in three places, calls slavery opposed to the "Jaws of God," says the church in England is fulfilling its "true mission" by resisting slavery and mentions four famous Christian ministers as being on the forefront of the abolitionist movement while he mentions no non-Christians

Well, Rad, your endless badgering on this issue got me re-reading his autobiography. As expected, I found the one of the fiercest invectives against orthodox Christianity, against organized religion, against American Christian culture I have ever read. Words that surely no Christian would EVER utter!

And then I read the afterword, written for the second edition (which I had not read before, whether through a disinclination for reading afterwards or because my copy in college didn't include it I honestly don't remember).

In the afterword, Douglass talks about the fierceness of his opposition to the Christianity of America, reaffirms his position that it is the vilest thing he has ever seen, continues to contrast the ethics of Christians with the ethics of Jesus, all of which is pretty good and standard fare from 19th century agnostics such as his close friend and promoter Robert Ingersoll.

Then, he goes on to say that, because of his stridency, he has been misconstrued by some as denying God. He states quite plainly that he denies all religion, but that he does so out of loyalty to God. A biographical appendix in my new edition also notes that he was the pastor, for a time in his 40s, of a liberal splinter Methodist/Episcopalian congregation.

So, that pretty well settles the issue. I was mistaken. Although I harbor no great love for your tenor, methods, or opinions, Radforth, you are correct in this particular instance.

My apologies.
-Lokmer

 

[radorth]

One of the BEST POSTS EVER!!

Assuming they were converted in the first place.

Major assumption. But then folks here think Hitler was converted, so I can see why they would just take it on faith if they were so disposed.

Rad

 

[Cat59]

Assuming they were converted in the first place.

Major assumption. But then folks here think Hitler was converted, so I can see why they would just take it on faith if they were so disposed.

Rad

Feeling of deja vu here...
Did you read my earlier reply to you, Rad? (post 379)
I think from your perspective, that assumption holds true, but when you don't believe in a god to give you a spiritual rebirth, then the conversion and experiences of a truly reborn christian are just as real as mine were. To try and fit what happens in reality into a world view that no one ever truly deconverts involves portraying years of faith and practice as somehow being less than the faith that you hold to.

 

[spirit1st]

WITHOUT THIS,be it the pope or any PERSON ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH.Your life has been worthless!READ THIS,This is the full TRUTH !Nothing matters more!


Christian Forums > Christians Only Section > Congregation > Non-denominational You Must Be Born Again! -- 1--part

 

[Eudaimonist]

WITHOUT THIS,be it the pope or any PERSON ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH.Your life has been worthless!READ THIS,This is the full TRUTH !Nothing matters more!

My life has worth no matter what.

 

[Rae]

WITHOUT THIS,be it the pope or any PERSON ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH.Your life has been worthless!

Sorry. You're wrong.

 

[Grizzly]

WITHOUT THIS,be it the pope or any PERSON ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH.Your life has been worthless!READ THIS,This is the full TRUTH !Nothing matters more!


Christian Forums > Christians Only Section > Congregation > Non-denominational You Must Be Born Again! -- 1--part

lol. I love evangelism that starts with "your life has been worthless" or "you are wretched and sick". Just like the snake-oil salesman, you first have to tell people they are sick before you can sell them the cure.

Nice.

 

[radorth]

Feeling of deja vu here...
Did you read my earlier reply to you, Rad? (post 379)
I think from your perspective, that assumption holds true, but when you don't believe in a god to give you a spiritual rebirth, then the conversion and experiences of a truly reborn christian are just as real as mine were. To try and fit what happens in reality into a world view that no one ever truly deconverts involves portraying years of faith and practice as somehow being less than the faith that you hold to.

Conversion is far more than acting Christian for a long time.

Rad

 

[LibertyChic]

Conversion is far more than acting Christian for a long time.

Rad

Deconversion is far more than denying Christianity.

 

[ACougar]

I don't like the term de-conversion, because it implies that I went backward instead of forward. I simply outgrew Christianity, I realized that it had served me well up to that point, however I needed to continue moving forward in my relationship with God and that Paganism was a better tool for me to further and build that relationship.