What are your views on Christian Metalcore?

DontTreadOnMike

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Those Album covers are occult mate ...exactly the same as any other Psuedo demonic Secular Metal band out there ...An album cover is a flag, a symbol, statement of what the contents of the music represent, state, mean and promote ... or atleast the personality of the band/musician.music ...

you have just been de-sensitised to it, as you have chosen to accept it as part of your logic and reality ...

Friend, how do you propergate/teach light to Darkness, through using Darkness...?

Well I don't. I'm not a christian. I don't believe it's demonic because I don't believe in demons. I will agree with you that the imagery isn't positive or happy but I don't see why that's a bad thing. (On a side note, I'll also agree with you that AS I Lay Dying's music and art aren't very good in the artistic sense either. It's very bland, boring, and generic. But that's irrelevant)

Anyway, yes, I agree that the imagery isn't positive or happy but I don't know why that's a bad thing. Christians sometimes feel down too. I know I did sometimes. It's not unchristian to feel sad or angry or to express sadness or anger. Christ did it himself. On the cross he expressed despair. In the garden of gethsemane he wrestled with his faith. At the temple he gave in to his anger and (rightfully) kicked out the money changers with a whip. I remember when I was younger, I would often be looked down upon by the Christians at church for not being 100% happy 100% of the time as if that were some command from God. But the sad part is, I knew that the people who pretended to be happy all the time felt sad too and sometimes wrestled with their own faith. Instead of expressing it or talking about it, they put on a face and acted like nothing was wrong.

Now, I was never a depressed person. I'm happy 99% percent of the time. But I'm also a realist; I didn't want to have to pretend I was happy when I wasn't. So Christian metal let me express that through songs which I wrote to God. Some of the songs were happy as well despite what the untrained ear might believe. But I remember having to tell people all the time like I'm telling you now, Christian metal isn't praise and worship music. It's not intended to be. And I agree, in heaven we probably won't be shredding out sweet licks on a flying V. Metal, to me, was a prayer rather than worship. For me it was a musical equivalent of Christ's desperate prayers in the garden of gethsemane. Or the musical equivalent of "A Grief Observed" by C.S. Lewis. Have you read that? It's a very powerful book where Lewis describes, in journal form, how he teaters on the edge of loosing faith after his wife dies, and then is pulled back right at the last minute. Things like that resonate with me. They are real. Christians sometimes struggle with faith. Why should they have to pretend everything is fine? In my case, I struggled against my faith and won ;)

And like I said earlier, don't take my current state of non-belief as evidence that metal leads people astray. My years in the Christian metal scene were my strongest years spiritually. I met the strongest Christians I know and I'm still friends with them and they still influence me. It wasn't until a long time after I left the metal scene that I stopped going to church. And that was because I was in the worship band and they wanted me to play a Michelle Branch song haha. I didn't think is was very Christian to play a secular love song so that was my last day at that church. I tried a few more out after that but never found one to call home so eventually I stopped going. It had nothing to do with metal.

I'll leave you with some lyrics that talk about just this very thing. I won't post the song because I know you won't listen to it.

Edit: Also, their first language is not English so forgive any weird grammer haha

Intimations of Everlasting Constancy by Crimson Moonlight
Cold and Darkness, where is your strenght?
Ice and Snow, where is your dominion?
When the sun of eternal life rises over the barren wilderness
You flee like scared sparrows...
You melt and pour out of time.
Sitting there in the snow I felt the cold conquer me,
alone and freezing away from the illusion of warmth,
which lived so strongly within me.
Should I close my eyes for the last time?
Should I give up my breath which makes the light of my life?
Uncertainty doesn't kill,
its sword only cuts the thorns in its way...

Many days came and went..
Nights streamed rapidly by...
Watching the shadows dance in the past,
hearing the flow of rain in the quiet loneliness...
The constant quest of man for what is right.
The hope of life shining brightest when the night is as darkest?
The mystery smiles at me...
Time, coiled up, is held in Thy hand.
Oh, God, Thy way is mine...

And so, the feeling was reborn,
like the sweet perfume of the deep forest,
like the expectancy of the beast of prey
after its long winter sleep.
It was a particular day,
unlike too many others
when I plucked up courage
and rose from my prison bed.
Oh, there was heard a familiar sound...
the signal of the end of the night,
indicating a recollection was born:
Springtime approaching in all its glorious beauty,
stealthily, silently like a whisper...
The spring...

I was given the grace once again to behold dawn
...the Gift..It was true.
I was there at the horizon of life, at the mirror of the soul.
The gate to the feast of light...
All concepts have lost their meaning,
few understand what Beauty means,
few understand its might.

The Gift... A melody born in Heaven
An intimation of everlasting constancy.
It is dancing in the room...
Musical tones fill the silence
Was it but a dream?
No, nothing in the realm of dreams can be so wonderful.

I am thirsting for more...
The sweetness of your wine is a remedy.
Yes, the sweetness of the wine is beauty fulfilled...
Tones saying more than a thousand words.
Who can tell their meaning?


 
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DontTreadOnMike

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You know, there is such a thing as Mixed Up Christianity ....it comes in various mixtures and degrees ... but each time and in each degree further it gets mixed, the further away from TRUTH it is ...

Friend ...as a christian, our purpose is not to sanitise and rationalise worldy things/practises and see them as somehow being usefull towards God ...but we use what God has told/ taught us to follow ...

The above music, philosophy and images reflect the practice of going further towards the EDGE/oppositie of what Gods standard is ...

God says Godliness, Life, Fruits of the Holy spirit, following christ , peace, love, joy, fullfillment ...etc ..

but the above propagates using death, suffering, darkness, wrestling within darkness and demons etc as being someway or somehow being about Christianity and following/ reflecting Jesus ...

but to continue look, act and think like... mingle and socialise with such things and put them on yourself is opposite of GOD ..period ...

Why don't you ever respond to my examples? The music I've been posting doesn't anything to do with death, darkness or demons. The first one I posted back in november which you ignored has some extremely powerful lyrics that can still get me all choked up even though I don't believe in God anymore. The second one I posted was literally a hymn. The third one I posted used winter, not darkness and evil, as a metaphor for struggling with your faith and it even ends on a positive note with God bringing the spring to rescue him

I know you won't listen to the songs so I'll post the lyrics of that first song I mentioned, the one that still has the ability to get me all choked up. It's a residual effect ;)

I challenge you to find demons, death, or darkness in these lyrics. (and the album cover is just a painting of hands praying I believe)

truth and justice belong to You
behold the power of His undying sacrifice
as a sanctuary for the wounded
in the council of perfection

all creation stands as a witness

all creation stands as a mark of Your will

all creation stands on the breath of God

wisdom hides behind Your eyes
darkness divided by Your fallen tear
there the wicked cease from turmoil
and the weary are at rest.
all sacrifice and all suffering is redemption.

formed in the palm of God's mighty hand,
shaped by the work of His will
and alive from the breath of His heart.

man's inspiration is God's touch on the quickened nerves of the spirit

enflamed by Your unquenchable fire i stand
in the spirit of conquest.
through You i am created to conquer.
fleeting. living a life of calamity.
forces unseen are controlling your destiny.
we're not at the mercy of fate.
fears born of this world are groundless.
lord teach me and i will be silent.
word made flesh ,we long to hear You.
You are my advocate, my mediator.
with complete power and perfect love

You alone hold the scales of judgment

Now THAT is a very positive song. No struggling with faith, no fighting demons with swords, no skulls, no darkness. Nothing even remotely negative at all.



The very practice, is called

Luciferianism , which in essence is a religion of worshiping the light/good and evil/bad aspects of the lucifer ...

There is no such approach to Jesus ...The Lord Jesus is PURE LIGHT/Love/Light ... and following HIM leads to such .. NOT wallowing in Torment ...

Hey I know some Luciferians. Weird guys. But then so are all of the people I know who practice the occult haha. They believe in a god named lucifer who has no relation to the judeo christian satan. Their lucifer is like prometheus, bringing divine knowledge and light to mankind. Now since I was a Christian for 22 years, I know what the Christian view on that is; he's still just satan in a (very thin) disguise. My personal view is it doesn't matter because neither the greek lucifer that they worship, nor satan exist. And it further doesn't matter because luciferianism has nothing to do with the topic at hand. so please don't ignore what I said above and in my previous post and just latch on to this last paragraph.
 
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nahtino

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Well I don't. I'm not a christian. I don't believe it's demonic because I don't believe in demons.

You are a Non Believer and from the above you therefore do not believe for example :Matthew 8:28-34, where in Jesus himself casts out demons ...

If you do not belive in Demons, surely then you must not believe Satan exists ...and if that is so, then there is no Evil in the world ...

Agnostic ... just based on that, how can it be possible that we can even be on the same view point regards the Bible ...



 
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DontTreadOnMike

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You are a Non Believer and from the above you therefore do not believe for example :Matthew 8:28-34, where in Jesus himself casts out demons ...
If you do not belive in Demons, surely then you must not believe Satan exists ...and if that is so, then there is no Evil in the world

WHOA! Slow down there. You assumed a WHOLE lot about me. That's the only possible conclusion you could come to? I don't believe in super natural spooks who try to tempt me to do evil, so therefore I don't believe in evil? There is plenty of evil in the world. People commit evil on their own without a little red guy on their shoulder whispering into their ear. I just don't know why skulls are evil. They protect our brains from injury. And I don't know why writing songs about sadness or anger is evil. Sadness and anger are not sins. They are natural emotions that we all feel. And why should Christians have to pretend to be happy 100% of the time when they aren't? Conversely, why is every metal song automatically dark, angry, or depressed? Maybe it sounds that way to YOU but art is subjective. Some metal songs are uplifting to me because I can understand what they are saying. Also, being a musician, I have a musical ear and can easily pick out all the different layers of melody and harmony. A well crafted metal song, like any other song, is a thing of beauty to me that can give me goosebumps and make me a little misty-eyed. (I respond very emotionally to music).


Agnostic ... just based on that, how can it be possible that we can even be on the same view point regards the Bible ...
Well a few months ago when I first posted in this thread I was still a Christian haha

But you're skipping over my examples again. This is the third time. Pleas re-read the lyrics I posted and pretend that they are just poems and not metal songs. Can you find anything you disagree in them?
 
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nahtino

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Look mate ...If you say You do not belive in Demons nor Satan and neither you are a christian ...well what more can I say .. How much mroe if you were a christian and chosen to not believe certain things and chosen to believe other things ...

I cant speak anything of a Biblical background with you, as you at this moment have chosen to reject biblical principles of the Bible/Christianity

Our very concepts of Evil, its nature and origins there of are not related and point to different roads that do not lead to the same understanding ...

As a christian, a fundemental truth is that Demonic beings and Satan are in existance ...Now as a non believer, you have chosen to believe otherwise and conclude that Evil is of Humans doing things other than what Jesus/God has set for us ...hence in your reasoning you now cannot see anything that is Satanic through Christian eyes ...hence skulls and bones on a christian album is nothing more than a Biology lesson in human comoposition after death ...
 
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DontTreadOnMike

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Look mate ...If you say You do not belive in Demons nor Satan and neither you are a christian ...well what more can I say .. How much mroe if you were a christian and chosen to not believe certain things and chosen to believe other things ...

I cant speak anything of a Biblical background with you, as you at this moment have chosen to reject biblical principles of the Bible/Christianity

Sure you can. Until very recently, I was a Christian too. For over 22 years. I held these same views when I was a Christian and I've argued these same points back when I was a Christian.

Our very concepts of Evil, its nature and origins there of are not related and point to different roads that do not lead to the same understanding ...

As a christian, a fundemental truth is that Demonic beings and Satan are in existance ...Now as a non believer, you have chosen to believe otherwise and conclude that Evil is of Humans doing things other than what Jesus/God has set for us ...hence in your reasoning you now cannot see anything that is Satanic through Christian eyes ...hence skulls and bones on a christian album is nothing more than a Biology lesson in human comoposition after death ...

Yeah, my views have changed, but not on Christian metal. And anyway, I remember what it was like to hold your views. I understand what you're saying and why you're saying it.

And anyway, I'm not really trying to convince you of anything. I'm not trying to come to an agreement with you. I simply want to know (for the fourth time) if you consider the lyrics that I posted to be evil from your point of view, using YOUR (God's) standards. We already know that I don't think they're evil, now I want to know what you think. I'll even grant to you that skull imagery is dark and oppressive and As I Lay Dying doesn't portray an image fitting of Christians. Fine. But now what about the examples that I posted? I'll even post the lyrics again here for you to read so that you don't have to go back and search for them.

truth and justice belong to You
behold the power of His undying sacrifice
as a sanctuary for the wounded
in the council of perfection

all creation stands as a witness

all creation stands as a mark of Your will

all creation stands on the breath of God

wisdom hides behind Your eyes
darkness divided by Your fallen tear
there the wicked cease from turmoil
and the weary are at rest.
all sacrifice and all suffering is redemption.

formed in the palm of God's mighty hand,
shaped by the work of His will
and alive from the breath of His heart.

man's inspiration is God's touch on the quickened nerves of the spirit

enflamed by Your unquenchable fire i stand
in the spirit of conquest.
through You i am created to conquer.
fleeting. living a life of calamity.
forces unseen are controlling your destiny.
we're not at the mercy of fate.
fears born of this world are groundless.
lord teach me and i will be silent.
word made flesh ,we long to hear You.
You are my advocate, my mediator.
with complete power and perfect love
You alone hold the scales of judgment
 
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nahtino

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Sure you can. Until very recently, I was a Christian too. For over 22 years. I held these same views when I was a Christian and I've argued these same points back when I was a Christian.Yeah, my views have changed, but not on Christian metal. And anyway, I remember what it was like to hold your views. I understand what you're saying and why you're saying it.

Therefore ...you are lost mate ...as yoyu have/ are rejecting salvation

And anyway, I'm not really trying to convince you of anything. I'm not trying to come to an agreement with you. I simply want to know (for the fourth time) if you consider the lyrics that I posted to be evil from your point of view, using YOUR (God's) standards. We already know that I don't think they're evil, now I want to know what you think. I'll even grant to you that skull imagery is dark and oppressive and As I Lay Dying doesn't portray an image fitting of Christians. Fine. But now what about the examples that I posted? I'll even post the lyrics again here for you to read so that you don't have to go back and search for them.

Some of the most beautifull WORSHIP in the world are to Satan ....(directly or indirectly)...Go to the Mormon church ...Orthodox churches ..wikka / satanist...and the catholic church ... and yes, they have 'god' written in them ...Even Jesus ...
Satan himself,being the ultimate thief of all things God, claims that name for himself ...so do not be startled when I state even regardless of lyrics and sincerity ...the litmus test of deception or truth is in the FRUIT thereof ...and if regardless of beautifull feelings and adoration , emotion ...one can never make their judgement based on those things ...

luke 4 verse 4
 
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DontTreadOnMike

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the litmus test of deception or truth is in the FRUIT thereof

Ok! Awesome! So the sunday morning worship leaders who cheat on their wives are false Christians and the Christian metal heads I know who live like good Christians are the real ones.

Good to know it's about the fruit and not the sound of the music. Thanks for clearing that up!

In all seriousness, you need to examine your heart and mind. If you find that your God hates all the things that you happen to hate and loves all the things that you happen to love, and even just so happens to have the same taste in music as you, then there's a chance that you're talking to your own mind, and not God.
 
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RasmusF

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Christian band KEEP THE CHANGE, DESPAIR (progressive metalcore) has been selected as a contestant in a voting competition where the winner gets to play with another christian band called AUGUST BURNS RED. This would be a huge dream come true, so here I am desperately representing our band and trying to get you guys vote for us.
Giving your vote takes only 3 seconds! The link:

kaaoszine.fi/aanesta-august-burns-redin-keikalle-lamppari

tick "Keep the Change, Despair" and click 'Äänestä'
(the voting system is in finnish)

A big thank you in advance. The voting ends 4pm GMT+2 so it's your last chance to do it, right now!


God bless you all,

Rasmus/KTC,D
 
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BrickUponBrick

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Haha, I don't think this argument is ever going to go away....

I love Christian metalcore. I'll defend it if I have to. But I've learned recently to not get worked up about it. Not that I'm saying anybody on here is getting worked up. I really like the points you make, DontTreadOnMike. I agree with pretty much all of them.
 
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