What are the "Waters"?

[Gxg (G²)]

Physicist Russell Humphreys, who reads the text very literally, has proposed a cosmology where the waters really are waters. He begins the cosmos with a ball of water containing the mass of the universe. It's about 2 light-years across, and begins to collapse under it's own weight. It then ignites and flies apart. In his model there remains ice at the edge of the cosmos (waters above the expanse).

Fascinating stuff, imo. I studied physics in college but not far enough to critique cosmologies.

His first model had holes in it, but he's been working to plug them here.

Intriguing model that the individual came up with - and many thanks for sharing it

 

[Bro in Christ]

We first read of them in Genesis, before the Earth was even made. Also notice that the "heavens" were created in this same chapter as the "waters" are being organized. Sometimes I think the term "waters" has another meaning, maybe something like strings or the Higgs-boson. Something that all matter has in common. If we glean information from the rest of the bible, we see the elements will be destroyed with fervent heat and dissolve, if this is the case, then there must be something common throughout the heavens that can be effected at once.

I know scientists are looking for the "God particle", but that only explains a "unified theory", not necessarily a "common denominator" throughout the universe.

what verse?

2 peter 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

 

[Mr.Waffles]

We first read of them in Genesis, before the Earth was even made. Also notice that the "heavens" were created in this same chapter as the "waters" are being organized. Sometimes I think the term "waters" has another meaning, maybe something like strings or the Higgs-boson. Something that all matter has in common. If we glean information from the rest of the bible, we see the elements will be destroyed with fervent heat and dissolve, if this is the case, then there must be something common throughout the heavens that can be effected at once.

I know scientists are looking for the "God particle", but that only explains a "unified theory", not necessarily a "common denominator" throughout the universe.

Something that always fascinated me, which is why at one point I had put together a study. The firmament is what separated the waters, we read about the waters above and below the firmament. The firmament is obviously the physical universe. The important point to grasp is that the waters below were given definitive limits and boundaries, but the waters above were not. Psalm 148:4 also directly references these very waters "above the heavens". Essentially, these waters above the heavens, in their initially state, serve as the impassable boundary between the firmament and the third heaven, at least that's what scripture seems to tell us.

Throughout the Bible, you can find a specific characteristic pop up numerous times: from the sound of the cherubs' wings, to the voice of God, to the voice of Christ - described as having "the sound of many waters" or something to that effect.

To give an idea, it's like a marble sinking in the middle of the pacific ocean. Marble = physical universe, pacific ocean = waters above the firmament, and heaven/the throne of God rests above.

 

[Calminian]

Something that always fascinated me, which is why at one point I had put together a study. The firmament is what separated the waters, we read about the waters above and below the firmament. The firmament is obviously the physical universe.....

Yeah, i think your'e right on the money. Creationists always tended to define the firmament in atmospheric terms, but Russell Humphreys was really the first to introduce (or at least popularize) the concept of it being cosmological.

Looking at the text exegetically, that makes a lot more sense to me. After the waters were divided, our land and sea were formed out of the waters left below. The waters above where left at the edges of the universe and we are never told what happened to them. I've speculated that perhaps God will use those to created the new earth? But I can only speculate.

But yeah, the firmament is the heavens. "And God called the firmament, heaven." The heavens in scripture is that which contains the sun moon and stars. I think that's the proper way to understand the rayqia. It's not an atmospheric expanse, it's an cosmological expanse. The entire space of the cosmos was made on day 2.

 

[granpa]

Its not either-or.
It can be either depending on how you look at it.

 

[SkyWriting]

We first read of them in Genesis, before the Earth was even made. Also notice that the "heavens" were created in this same chapter as the "waters" are being organized. Sometimes I think the term "waters" has another meaning, maybe something like strings or the Higgs-boson. Something that all matter has in common. If we glean information from the rest of the bible, we see the elements will be destroyed with fervent heat and dissolve, if this is the case, then there must be something common throughout the heavens that can be effected at once.

I know scientists are looking for the "God particle", but that only explains a "unified theory", not necessarily a "common denominator" throughout the universe.

The earth is 71% covered with water. Is your question about water in space?

http:scientists-discover-oldest-largest-body-water-existence-space

 

[GUANO]

You're reading all of this from outside the perspective of the ancient Mesopotamians. It's nice to see open minds but I think it's important to understand it as they did.

It's controversial to say, but it seems highly likely that the Torah was written during the Babylonian Captivity which is why the creation account is so similar to the Babylonian mythos. It wasn't just Babylonian either. Most all Mesopotamians believed in the Creation myth as well as Adam, Eve, Cain, Seth, the Watchers, etc...

From their viewpoint, the elements of creation and the days they were created is more important for their religious cosmology than it is 'literal fact'. They believe(ed) that all physical elements have a spiritual, symbolic counter-element. This is also what the Jewish kabbalists and mystics believed (because Kabblah is rooted in the Chaldean mysteries). Just my .02.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Wow

 

[ChetSinger]

Yeah, i think your'e right on the money. Creationists always tended to define the firmament in atmospheric terms, but Russell Humphreys was really the first to introduce (or at least popularize) the concept of it being cosmological.

Looking at the text exegetically, that makes a lot more sense to me. After the waters were divided, our land and sea were formed out of the waters left below. The waters above where left at the edges of the universe and we are never told what happened to them. I've speculated that perhaps God will use those to created the new earth? But I can only speculate.

But yeah, the firmament is the heavens. "And God called the firmament, heaven." The heavens in scripture is that which contains the sun moon and stars. I think that's the proper way to understand the rayqia. It's not an atmospheric expanse, it's an cosmological expanse. The entire space of the cosmos was made on day 2.

I think so, too. Years ago I read Dr. Humphreys book and one of his observations stuck with me. If you read the Hebrew of Genesis 1 (and while I can't read Hebrew, I can read Young's Literal Translation) the sun, moon, and stars are "in the expanse". Meanwhile, the birds fly on the "face of the expanse". So birds aren't "in the expanse" like the celestial objects are.

 

[Calminian]

You're reading all of this from outside the perspective of the ancient Mesopotamians. It's nice to see open minds but I think it's important to understand it as they did.

It's controversial to say, but it seems highly likely that the Torah was written during the Babylonian Captivity which is why the creation account is so similar to the Babylonian mythos. It wasn't just Babylonian either. Most all Mesopotamians believed in the Creation myth as well as Adam, Eve, Cain, Seth, the Watchers, etc...

From their viewpoint, the elements of creation and the days they were created is more important for their religious cosmology than it is 'literal fact'. They believe(ed) that all physical elements have a spiritual, symbolic counter-element. This is also what the Jewish kabbalists and mystics believed (because Kabblah is rooted in the Chaldean mysteries). Just my .02.

Two words. Tablet theory. Nuff said.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

We first read of them in Genesis, before the Earth was even made. Also notice that the "heavens" were created in this same chapter as the "waters" are being organized. Sometimes I think the term "waters" has another meaning, maybe something like strings or the Higgs-boson. Something that all matter has in common. If we glean information from the rest of the bible, we see the elements will be destroyed with fervent heat and dissolve, if this is the case, then there must be something common throughout the heavens that can be effected at once.

I know scientists are looking for the "God particle", but that only explains a "unified theory", not necessarily a "common denominator" throughout the universe.

Not certain if you've ever heard of it - but this article was a very amazing one which I really got a lot out of. It's on Ancient Cosmotology from Dr.Michael Heiser - as seen here:

Genesis and Creation (Part 1) - Michael Heiser, PhD - YouTube

Genesis and Creation (Part 2) - Michael Heiser, PhD - YouTube

Genesis and Creation (Part 3) - Michael Heiser, PhD - YouTube

 

[SkyWriting]

We first read of them in Genesis, before the Earth was even made. Also notice that the "heavens" were created in this same chapter as the "waters" are being organized. Sometimes I think the term "waters" has another meaning, maybe something like .....

"Water" is considered the medium of "change."
"Baptism" for instance.