WESTERN Rite kind of hokey?

[All4Christ]

Hmmm - I wondered who would quote that

I almost looked up your signature to find the quote If I hadn’t found it easily online, your signature would be my next source lol.

 

[buzuxi02]

What’s interesting is that there is a western rite in the first place, so I suppose it’s whatever rite the Bishop of Rome prescribed prior to the schism.

I'm one on the record that does not support a western rite. These rites originally were Anglican with some corrections (so called liturgy of St. Tikhon). Basically every now and then some western high church christians want to be Orthodox due to liberalism creeping into their church. They find an Orthodox synod willing to look over their liturgical books where the bishops make the neccesary corrections and if approved become are brought into the church as western rite ( or more accurately protestant rite)

 

[All4Christ]

I'm one on the record that does not support a western rite. These rites originally were Anglican with some corrections (so called liturgy of St. Tikhon). Basically every now and then some western high church christians want to be Orthodox but retain their customary worship. They find a synod willing to look over their liturgy and make some corrections and if approved become western rite.

There are more than one Western Rite liturgies. The Tridentine Mass was not adapted from the Anglican liturgy.

 

[buzuxi02]

There are more than one Western Rite liturgies. The Tridentine Mass was not adapted from the Anglican liturgy.

Who serves that? But yes there is more than one which shows this is not a pre-schism Roman liturgy but some protestant liturgies generations removed. All the earliest cases of people seeking a WR were schismatics who had a falling out with their bishops and found Orthodoxy as the useful idiots to use as stepping stones in their protestant ways of sectarianism. The Orthodox bishops always taking the bait give a blessing and finally after a few decades they schism away. Remember those in France who claim the Russian saint as blessing them and yet they schism when it suits them and come crawling back to a different jurisdiction to only schism again.

 

[Hermit76]

I'm glad I'm not a Bishop.

 

[rusmeister]

I maintain my skepticism. I accept that there are WR parishes that are entirely canonical, so am not attacking it as heretical, but I do see how it can be used by ecumenists, and buzuxi does describe the type that leans that way.
God knows that ecumenists will even use the good old ER. The WR makes it easier for them.
So it’s not evil or heretical, but it is dangerous. But then, I think even pews have bad effects on our worship.

 

[All4Christ]

Who serves that? But yes there is more than one which shows this is not a pre-schism Roman liturgy but some protestant liturgies generations removed. All the earliest cases of people seeking a WR were schismatics who had a falling out with their bishops and found Orthodoxy as the useful idiots to use as stepping stones in their protestant ways of sectarianism. The Orthodox bishops always taking the bait give a blessing and finally after a few decades they schism away. Remember those in France who claim the Russian saint as blessing them and yet they schism when it suits them and come crawling back to a different jurisdiction to only schism again.

The local WR near me serves the Tridentine Mass.

I’m with @Hermit76 on this. I’m glad I’m not a bishop!

 

[Hermit76]

I maintain my skepticism. I accept that there are WR parishes that are entirely canonical, so am not attacking it as heretical, but I do see how it can be used by ecumenists, and buzuxi does describe the type that leans that way.
God knows that ecumenists will even use the good old ER. The WR makes it easier for them.
So it’s not evil or heretical, but it is dangerous. But then, I think even pews have bad effects on our worship.

It should be noted that the ecumenicism feel varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. I'm glad my children's parish has installed an iconastasis and hasn't followed the pew thing. Pews help my arthritis but hinder my spiritual focus.
My biggest concern with WR at this point is the Protestant tendency to make changes to "reach others." Some things are rather innocuous but it is a definite slippery slope.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I am a proceed with caution kinda guy with the WR, because I could see it go either way.

I am also glad I am not a bishop.

 

[Hermit76]

I am a proceed with caution kinda guy with the WR, because I could see it go either way.

I am also glad I am not a bishop.

My kids coming in through a WR hasn't eliminated my apprehension. I still think it's a parish by parish case right now. Painting with a broad brush isn't helpful at this time.
I am interested to know what the growth rate of the WR is at this point and if any ER parishes have changed to WR. Does anyone know?

 

[ArmyMatt]

My kids coming in through a WR hasn't eliminated my apprehension. I still think it's a parish by parish case right now. Painting with a broad brush isn't helpful at this time.
I am interested to know what the growth rate of the WR is at this point and if any ER parishes have changed to WR. Does anyone know?

I went to a WR chapel when I was going through Basic Training. it was odd to say the least. however, I know it is working to bring folks to the Church.

 

[E.C.]

My own thoughts have been over wondering why it is needed. I have a general suspicion of people reviving stuff that the Church hasn't used or needed for a thousand years just because people "feel like it". It's the same basis I object to the idea of deaconesses. The fact that something once existed for a good reason is not sufficient reason to restore it, and can be dangerous - on deaconesses, they are much more dangerous than helpful in a world where we don't baptize people naked, and with rampant feminism seeking to deny and eliminate the God-established division of the sexes. On WR, the chief danger, insofar as it could be one, would be in using Roman forms in a world where ecumenism without genuine unity in the Holy Spirit is fashionable, and it could be used to ramp up demands for a false unity. I accept that everything done in the WR Liturgy is pious and not against Orthodox forms. I just have to ask why people think they NEED it, and the response of "feeling comfortable with it" doesn't satisfy me. I remain skeptical, and lean towards accepting what has been preserved, rather than seeking anything for my comfort. I don't accept that the preserved EO Liturgies are like climbing Mt Ararat or Everest, that is, so horribly difficult and frightening vis-a-vis WR. We already have pews to make people feel comfortable, which I think have real and negative effects on worship.

Of course, I'm open to hearing other reasons.

I can understand a desire for the Western Rite in Europe within reason.

Let's look at Western Liturgies for a moment. From the Reformation era until Vatican II in the 1960s the Roman Catholic Church used the Tridentine Mass which came about after the RCC's Council of Trent which was convened to deal with the Reformation. Before that various parts of the West had their own liturgical rites such as the Mozarabic Rite during the time of the Visigoths in Spain, the Celtic Rite in the British Isles, the Diocese of Cologne had its own until they became Protestant etc etc. The RCC adopted the Tridentine Rite for use throughout their entire Church I believe partially as a way of conformity so there was no confusion that one was in a Catholic Church vs accidently stumbling into a Lutheran Church (which unlike many Protestant faiths actually has some semblance of tradition) similar to how, theoretically, one visiting the Middle East could accidently walk into a Melkite Catholic parish vs an Orthodox one.

Any who,
Fast forward to the relatively modern era and people are converting to Orthodoxy in Western Europe. Yay. As they do so, they're probably wanting to find some connection to the pre-Schism Western Christianity. Chances are, if they grew up in the RCC, they didn't know that other liturgical rites existed prior to the Tridentine Rite. And, just as much as Slavs continue to use Church Slavonic for a connection with their ancestors, Western Europeans could see an attraction in pre-Schism Western rites for a similar connection thinking that it would connect them more to Orthodoxy; especially in the British Isles where they'd already faced Papal coercion before with William the Bastard's invasion from Normandy since the Pope wanted the Isles to conform to Roman Rite ways and paid/blessed William to invade.

So, all this said, I could see an attraction to the Western Rite for those in Western Europe. I don't really see it that much for those in the USA outside of the Anglican-Orthodox Relations during the early 20th century. I heard a podcast about American Orthodox history that had said during St Tikhon's tenure in America there was sincere belief, at the time, that the Episcopalians would merge with the Orthodox. If that's the case then it would make sense that St Tikhon would write the Western Rite based on the Anglican Book of Common Prayer.

EDIT TO ADD:
Here in America only the ROCOR and Antiochians have a Western Rite. A friend of mine was at a talk with Metropolitan Jonah who explained the two jurisdictions have a different mindset. The Antiochian WR came out of the former Evangelical Orthodox Church which has the mindset of re-Orthodoxizing the West. The ROCOR's WR mentality is more of allowing an exception to the rule; most parishes use the Eastern Rite, but if you want to a Western Rite than it's gotta be one of a few available and done with a blessing.