Well, I'm in trouble now...

[andreha]

And “women preaching” is not “questionable at best,” The Bible is clear that in the kingdom of God there is neither male nor female, “There is no longer Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male and female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus” (Galatians 3.28). God’s economy is far different than what the Southern Baptists or Catholic Church has made it. IMO, it was womo-phobic men that embraced that OT view of women and then have found a few scriptures to support male subjugation of women. It’s a view that is more Taliban than Christian. Christ came to free us, not keep us in bondage to one another.

~Jim

Love God. Love people. Period. ​

Amen to that.

 

[BlackSabb]

Really? You can make that assessment just from the few posts you may have read in this forum? Should I tell you how a post like this comes across? I will keep it to myself but say that it is character assassination at best. All you know of Tamara is what she writes in her posts but you have never met her or observed how she behaves toward her supervisors or the elders in her church. So you are simply judging outward appearance from her posts (which, I would bet, you largely disagree with).



And “women preaching” is not “questionable at best,” The Bible is clear that in the kingdom of God there is neither male nor female, “There is no longer Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male and female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus” (Galatians 3.28). God’s economy is far different than what the Southern Baptists or Catholic Church has made it. IMO, it was womo-phobic men that embraced that OT view of women and then have found a few scriptures to support male subjugation of women. It’s a view that is more Taliban than Christian. Christ came to free us, not keep us in bondage to one another.

~Jim

Love God. Love people. Period. ​

Well then why bother claiming any adherence to Biblical standards at all? It seems like a lot of people on this thread want to call themsleves "Christian" but don't want anyone to tell them what to do.

Paul clearly says that women are not to preach and have authority over men. But so called Christian women don't want to submit to that.

The Bible says to submit to church leaders in all things. Heck, Jesus even went so far as to say to submit even to the hypocritical leaders!!!! Yeah so called Christian people, how does that grab you? I bet your flesh doesn't like that. Yeah, Jesus said that the Pharisess put burdens on people and are unwilling to lift a finger themselves. But Jesus still said to do what they say. How much more does Jesus expect Christians to submit to genuine Christian leaders?

God would not tell a woman to preach in another country when it is God who tells his people to submit to their church leaders. If a particular church leader is opposed to women preaching, then it is impossible that God would have told a woman of that congregation to go preach in the first place. God in that case would be violating his own commandments.

 

[JimB]

I had a meeting with the pastors last night. It went about how I expected it would. We did not fight, or even argue (very much). But the gist of it was that unless I was willing to give them some "strong assurance" that I would not talk about or teach my views on this subject, I would not be allowed to resume any of my leadership roles (i.e. praise team, youth girls small group).

I told them that I had no intention of beginning some sort of campaign to change things at the church, but if asked or if the subject came up, I could not promise to not say what I believe is the truth.

That was not good enough for them. And, I realized, resuming my roles as before - even if they didn't require such a promise - wouldn't be good enough for me. They made it clear that their stance is not open to reconsideration (they weren't even interested in hearing my reasoning) and so I know that there is really no place at that church to exercise the gifts that God has given me.

I believe it was God's timing in this. And we were able to part as friends, so that is good.

This sounds more like an Inquisition than a meeting of friends. What they told you to do is what the Council at Worms ordered Luther to do in 1521. The honchos wanted Luther to recant and stop preaching and writing about grace. That’s when Luther said, “I cannot and will not recant anything, since it is neither safe nor right to go against conscience. Here I stand. I can do no other. God help me.”

This sounds more like an Inquisition than a meeting. What they told you to do is what the Council at Worms ordered Luther to do in 1521. The honchos wanted Luther to recant and stop preaching grace. That’s when Luther said, “Here I stand. I can do no other. God help me.”

Actually the event was called the “Diet of Worms,” which is a strange title because in the centuries since the Roman Catholic Church has had to eat worms on this issue of law and grace. It did become their diet of worms.

~Jim

Love God. Love people. Period. ​

​

 

[heron]

Actually the event was called the “Diet of Worms,”

Probably the women prepared it for them.

I ran across an interesting passage this morning -- I Corinthians 15 puts the blame for sin on Adam.

1 Corinthians 15 - NAS - without Study Resources - Study Desk

15:21, 22 Greek For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

 

[imperfectchristian]

Well as T.D. Jakes likes to say...."It's a setup!!! Lol

I think God was/is setting Tamara up to follow the calling she has in her life.

 

[Tamara224]

And how did you figure that? No offense, but you come across as a defiant and rebellious Christian, not submitting to the ordinances of God. When you are a part of a church, you are under their authority, just like you are under authority when you go to work for the boss. Does not the Bible say to "submit to all leaders?"

Women preaching is questionable at best. What is not questionable is that the Bible clearly stipulates that as part of a church congregation, you are required to submit to church leaders in all things. You clearly are violationg that and are are looking for sympathy on this board. You have none from me. You need to go back to your church, apologise to your pastor and submit to him and the other church leaders as God commands in the Bible.

Nonsense. Pure, utter nonsense.

There is one mediator between me and God, Jesus Christ. I have done and will do what He tells me to do without regard for what you or any man has to say about it.

 

[Tamara224]

This sounds more like an Inquisition than a meeting of friends. What they told you to do is what the Council at Worms ordered Luther to do in 1521. The honchos wanted Luther to recant and stop preaching and writing about grace. That’s when Luther said, “I cannot and will not recant anything, since it is neither safe nor right to go against conscience. Here I stand. I can do no other. God help me.”

This sounds more like an Inquisition than a meeting. What they told you to do is what the Council at Worms ordered Luther to do in 1521. The honchos wanted Luther to recant and stop preaching grace. That’s when Luther said, “Here I stand. I can do no other. God help me.”

Actually the event was called the “Diet of Worms,” which is a strange title because in the centuries since the Roman Catholic Church has had to eat worms on this issue of law and grace. It did become their diet of worms.

~Jim

Love God. Love people. Period. ​

"Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!"

The tone of our conversation was friendly, and the pastor kept assuring me he loves me and wants to "walk with me." But I can't deny that he did not treat it as a meeting of equals. He was a bit condescending, very defensive - he kept acting like I was going to accuse him of something and want to fight with him - and patronizing.

But, I guess I understand where he's coming from. He doesn't think we're equal. He thinks he's the boss and I'm supposed to obey him. He believes that's what it means to be a pastor, and he was treating this like a situation where he was forced to rebuke and correct a wayward child. Although he said he recognizes that I know Scripture and have demonstrated that I'm a mature Christian with good character, those things don't seem to have had an impact on how he approached me.

He kept assuring me that he has "prayerfully studied" this issue before. But I guess he and I differ on our definition of "study" because from what he said, I know he is ignorant of the arguments and reasoning of the other side. He got quite offended when I told him that I believed my study of the topic was probably more comprehensive because it's more personal to me. I didn't mean to offend him, I thought that was self-evident.

Still, I can't ask him to do something I myself am not willing to do. He has taken a stance on the subject and has made it a priority. If that's his position, I can't ask him to back down. So, the only option left for me is to leave.

I agree with the others that this is God's work and God's plan. I still think He had me at that church for a reason. Maybe the whole 2 1/2 years there was so that I could go to India. The women whom I taught there were impacted by what I taught, I already have proof of that. And the pastors in India have asked for me to send them my notes. If the message God gave me to preach that Sunday morning reached even one person, it was worth the last few years a million times over.

But now, as they say in C.S. Lewis' The Last Battle "onward and upward!"

 

[SharonL]

Nonsense. Pure, utter nonsense.

There is one mediator between me and God, Jesus Christ. I have done and will do what He tells me to do without regard for what you or any man has to say about it.

Right on Tamara - they always quote part of Scripture, however where is it that Jesus said to follow the leaders EXCEPT WHEN THEIR BELIEF GOES AGAINST GOD AND SCRIPTURE -

If a woman was not called of God, she could not stand up under the attacks brought against her, nor would she have the Words from God to bring forth.
Many women have not followed the call of God upon their lives due to this man made thinking. Following the call of God is not easy, the anointing has to be there.

I admire you Tamara for standing strong and not giving in to the pressures man has brought against you.

 

[Strong in Him]

Take it from me; it would not matter at all.

That's sad.
But maybe this is the thing that the Lord will use to challenge their position on this?

 

[Strong in Him]

I ran across an interesting passage this morning -- I Corinthians 15 puts the blame for sin on Adam.

1 Corinthians 15 - NAS - without Study Resources - Study Desk

15:21, 22 Greek For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

He says that in Romans 5 too.

 

[Tamara224]

If a woman was not called of God, she could not stand up under the attacks brought against her, nor would she have the Words from God to bring forth.
Many women have not followed the call of God upon their lives due to this man made thinking. Following the call of God is not easy, the anointing has to be there.

It's sad to see the Body of Christ intentionally handicapping itself. Refusing the gifts and callings of women harms the whole body. You cannot cut off your right arm and pretend the whole body doesn't feel the pain. The men lose as much as the women do because they refuse to be taught and edified by women.

I've said for years that if the greatest in the Kingdom of God are truly the servants of all, then men are going to be surprised when Christ returns. Many men have forced women into subservient roles. Those men will be surprised when Christ elevates the lowly and women are revealed to be the true leaders.

 

[Strong in Him]

Paul clearly says that women are not to preach and have authority over men.

He doesn't say that women can't preach.
In Eph 4 he does not say that women can't be pastors and teachers, nor, in 1 Cor 12, that the Spirit will never give gifts of teaching to a woman.

Preaching the Gospel is not "having authority over" men. And women are allowed to preach the Good News and tell others about Jesus, a) because he told us all to be his witnesses and make disciples and b) because the woman at the well and Mary Magdalene both did so.

But so called Christian women don't want to submit to that.

That's an assumption and a judgement.
The assumption is that your interpretation of the NT verses is correct and the Bible does teach that women cannot do certain things; the judgement is that any woman who doesn't agree with you is a "so called" Christian.

This is not a salvation issue; we are saved by accepting Jesus, and through his blood, NOT by whether or not we agree with women preachers. Therefore to use the phrase "so called" is to question someone else's salvation and relationship woth the Lord.

I'm a woman, and a preacher (not minister), and I'm saved. Many of us are - you'll see us in heaven.

God would not tell a woman to preach in another country

But he clearly did - unless you are calling Tamara a liar.

when it is God who tells his people to submit to their church leaders.

Church leaders are also human, and therefore may be wrong; we are to submit to God first of all. Tamara is certain that God told her to preach, and gave her the opportunity. The Indian Pastor presumably didn't HAVE to ask her, there were others on the team. If Tamara really believed that GOD was telling her to do this, she had to do it.

If a particular church leader is opposed to women preaching, then it is impossible that God would have told a woman of that congregation to go preach in the first place.

Nonsense. God is not here to submit to the wills and prejudices of men; we are all here to serve God. I can't imagine the Lord in heaven thinking "oooh I'd better not send her there to preach, I'll be in trouble with the church leaders"!

God in that case would be violating his own commandments.

But God has not commanded that women should not preach.

 

[franky67]

Amen to that, Strong in Him, In the frail flesh of mortal man, we see the evil of traditions of the flesh, in this case the inferiority of women.

Sad to say, it is still with us today. bur I say again and again, if you want to see more clearly the heart of the Father on ANY matter, then watch the Lamb.

 

[hislegacy]

Actually the event was called the “Diet of Worms,” which is a strange title because in the centuries since the Roman Catholic Church has had to eat worms on this issue of law and grace. It did become their diet of worms.

~Jim

Love God. Love people. Period. ​

No j, it is not a strange title, it is old English

Diets were general assemblies of the Imperial Estates of the Holy Roman Empire. Several of them took place in the city of Worms, in what is now Germany.

Worms - pronounced with a V, or phonetically "Vorms".

Tamara, while quite gifted, is no Martin Luther and by her own words, this was no inquisition.

 

[Chaplain David]

 

[_Sonnie]

 

[Big Drew]

This may be the end of my membership at the church I've been attending for the past 2 1/2 years.

I just got confronted by the associate pastor because I preached at a church while I was in India.

His message:






We'll see what happens. I responded in a pretty lengthy email and told him, essentially, that I did preach and that I'm not sorry for it. I believe God called me to it.


I also mildly chastised him for making the implication that since the church funded the trip they should get to dictate what I believe and how I act out that belief.


But, anyway, I have a feeling I'll probably get pushed out of the church over this issue. I won't be able to apologize or submit to them on this issue.

Good for you...I mean...sucks that the church is acting like this towards you...but good for you for doing what you felt led by the Lord to do, and standing your ground.

 

[pdudgeon]

Tamara, your pastors have conveniently forgotten that it was a woman who first told the news of Jesus' resurection to the disciples. And lookie at what happened!

if your pastors had been among that group on the first Easter Sunday, would they have admonished the woman, and told her that she should not be spredding such news to men?

look to God for your confirmation of what happened in India.
God often uses people to get His message across in situations where the rules and regulations of men have to be set aside when the men refuse to listen or act .
As in the case of the women who first told the good news to the disciples of Jesus resurection, the disciples confirmed the truth of what they heard, and then spread the story themselves.

So send the church leaders in India your notes so that what you said there can be confirmed by them. And then wait to see what happens there to the people you preached to. let God take care of the harvest and multiply it as He sees fit.
pam

ps. i have been in your shoes. in my case the confirmation came thru a guest lecturer at an event i was attending 6 months after i left my church. my former church leaders were also in attendance there in the same room, and had to sit thru that publically confirming word from the Lord. during the next break they came over to appologize to me for the misunderstanding.

and yep, that was sweet!

 

[Big Drew]

If only people wouldn't take everything so literally and actually consider the contexts of 2000 year old letters.

Yep.

Like a good friend of mine said...If Paul didn't really want women to preach then he must have been schizophrenic...Priscilla, anyone??

 

[jeolmstead]

All those of us in Christ were given the instruction by Jesus in the gospels to go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.

No man made doctrine that restricts the great commission, is within the will of God.

Well said!

John O.