We call her Blessed, what do you call her?

[Ceallaigh]

The 12 stars of the Apocalypse are the elders in heaven, if they represent anything human. The may also be representative of the 12 tribes of the new Israel redeemed in heaven or the 12 apostles of the Lamb of God.

It seems to me that since the tribes of Israel were represented as stars in Joseph's dream, they represented the tribes of Israel in John's vision, which also contained the sun and moon as Joseph's prophetic dream did. One thing I realized a long time ago, is that a lot of what John writes about in Revelation, is connected to what's written in the Old Testament.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Were this so then the Lord, Jesus Christ either has a different kind of humanity or he has a stained human nature. Catholic Christology suggests that the Lord had perfect human nature, not different but unstained, and that he received it from his mother Blessed Mary who was born without the stain of original sin.

I understand this Catholic theology; it is one point on which I can not agree.

Before the fall, Adam and Eve could not die; after the fall, all mankind is destined to suffer physical death (with the exception of those living at the time of our Lord's next coming. Christ was indeed conceived and born without sin, and remains so for eternity. I speculate that His humanity remains sinless always, they stain (not the sin) made his flesh mortal. Mortality comes from the stain. On the third day for Jesus and on the last day for us, he and we will have immortal bodies; likely similar to Adam and Eve pre fall.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

...

 

[Ceallaigh]

Didn't the first martyr, Steven, pray to Jesus?

I'd say he called out to Jesus the same as I would if I was dying. I don't think there's anything wrong with praying to Jesus who is God of course. But at the same time Jesus did give us a formula of praying to the Father in Jesus' name.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I'm in agreement with all of that. Except maybe praying to Jesus, simply because Jesus instructed us to pray to the Father in His name. But praying to Jesus doesn't bother me any. I certainly call out to Jesus.

I usually begin my prayers with the Trinitarian invocation, and usually end with the following doxology or something very similar: ...this we ask in the Name of Jesus Christ, Your Son, our Lord, who lives and reigns with You and the Holy Spirit, one God, now and forever. Amen.

 

[prodromos]

Were this so then the Lord, Jesus Christ either has a different kind of humanity or he has a stained human nature. Catholic Christology suggests that the Lord had perfect human nature, not different but unstained, and that he received it from his mother Blessed Mary who was born without the stain of original sin.

Christ received his flesh from Mary, but it was healed in the instant of His incarnation.
The "Immaculate conception" is the Catholic solution to a non existent problem.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

The 12 stars of the Apocalypse are the elders in heaven, if they represent anything human. The may also be representative of the 12 tribes of the new Israel redeemed in heaven or the 12 apostles of the Lamb of God.

Or simply completeness/perfection.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Christ received his flesh from Mary, but it was healed in the instant of His incarnation.
The "Immaculate conception" is the Catholic solution to a non existent problem.

Or in the instant of His rising from the dead. The flesh prior to the crucifiction could feel pain and could die. After, while still bearing the wounds of mortality, it was healed and immortal.

 

[prodromos]

Joseph had 11 stars, not 12.

Plus in Genesis, Jacob gives the interpretation that the Sun and Moon represent himself and Joseph's mother.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

It seems to me that since the tribes of Israel were represented as stars in Joseph's dream, they represented the tribes of Israel in John's vision,

Why do you think this way?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Christ received his flesh from Mary, but it was healed in the instant of His incarnation.
The "Immaculate conception" is the Catholic solution to a non existent problem.

The Catholic perspective is that Christ received an unstained perfect humanity from his mother who was preserved from the stain of Original Sin by the redemption of the Lord Jesus Christ, her saviour. Christ himself had no saviour and needed none, he was to be the Saviour of human kind.

 

[prodromos]

Or in the instant of His rising from the dead. The flesh prior to the crucifiction could feel pain and could die. After, while still bearing the wounds of mortality, it was healed and immortal.

I'm pretty confident that the patristic concensus is that our human nature was restored in Christ at the instant of His conception in Mary's womb. Adam and Eve were created good, with the potential to become perfect. I don't believe that means they couldn't feel pain before the fall, just that there was no illness.

 

[prodromos]

The Catholic perspective is that Christ received an unstained perfect humanity from his mother who was preserved from the stain of Original Sin by the redemption of the Lord Jesus Christ, her saviour. Christ himself had no saviour and needed none, he was to be the Saviour of human kind.

But if Mary could be conceived without "original sin" then there is no reason Christ could not likewise be conceived the same way.

 

[Ceallaigh]

Why do you think this way?

Comparing scripture with scripture is a common practice.

@MarkRohfrietsch do you know if there's a Lutheran interpretation of Revelation 12:1-2?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

But if Mary could be conceived without "original sin" then there is no reason Christ could not likewise be conceived the same way.

Blessed Mary was preserved from the stain of original sin by means of the saving work of the Lord Jesus Christ which was applied to her at the moment of her conception. Christ did not need a saviour, he was perfect.

 

[FenderTL5]

But if Mary could be conceived without "original sin" then there is no reason Christ could not likewise be conceived the same way.

The western concept of original sin gets complex and confusing. This is unnecessary in Orthodoxy.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I'm pretty confident that the patristic concensus is that our human nature was restored in Christ at the instant of His conception in Mary's womb. Adam and Eve were created good, with the potential to become perfect. I don't believe that means they couldn't feel pain before the fall, just that there was no illness.

No illness, no death, no wants; we know that pain in childbirth came later. Maybe I should have said, no discomfort; but we don't exactly know, as we are not exactly told.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Comparing scripture with scripture is a common practice.

@MarkRohfrietsch do you know if there's a Lutheran interpretation of Revelation 12:1-2?

Revelation, being a book full of symbolism, there is as much diversity and supposition regarding this. Least popular would be that it is Mary (but there are parallels for sure. Most popular is that she (the woman) represents the Church. To vague.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

The western concept of original sin gets complex and confusing. This is unnecessary in Orthodoxy.

I do not think it does get complicated, and if it is confusing that may be an issue with preconceptions on the part of the listener. But in this case - that of Blessed Mary and the Lord Jesus Christ - it is fairly straight forward:

1. Since the fall all humans who are naturally descended from Adam have a flaw in their human nature that is a consequence of the first sin.
2. All human beings who are encompassed by the saving work of the Lord Jesus Christ will receive a restored and perfected human nature.
3. The place in time in which any specific human being lives does not preclude the application of Christ's saving work to them.

Now, since the Lord Jesus Christ received his human nature from his mother, Blessed Mary, there is a question to ask;

Did Christ receive the flawed human nature that is the common lot of humanity born by natural generation?​

If one says yes, then Christ was in need of salvation and hence of a saviour.
If one says no, then Christ was not in need of salvation.

Catholics say no, and reason that Christ needed no salvation is because he was sinless; he neither sinned himself nor was stained by original sin. And he was not stained by original sin because his humanity, received from his mother, was perfect. But it was innately perfect, not perfected by an act of singular grace whereby he was cleansed (saved). It was innately perfect because his mother's humanity was made perfect by a singular act of grace (saved) by the application to Blessed Mary of God's saving work in Jesus Christ, the Lord.

So the dogma of the Immaculate Conception is Christological, in that it is about the incarnation and the humanity of Christ.

 

[prodromos]

If one says yes, then Christ was in need of salvation and hence of a saviour.

Sorry, that does not follow.