We are killed because we are Christians

[Secundulus]

I am advocating the establishment of militairy order that is cross denominational and national...

That would require that all Christians recognize one Christian authority.

We gave that up a long time ago. Until we are again united, this could never happen.

 

[Kas]

I am very divided over this. My own personal inclination would be to form a modern day Templar Army and declare a Holy War on Islam. However, I am pretty sure that my personal inclination is misguided, however sincere it may be.

I think we just need to place complete and total faith in God, not the Government, for he has already won the war. All we have to do is remain faithful and wait on his timing.

" When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also." (Revelation 6:9-11, NASB95)
​

We are not facing something new. This has been the condition of following Christ since the earliest times.

In the daily office which Catholic Priests are required to say each day is a recitation of the Church's martyrology. After a few days of reading this, one realizes that not much has changed since the beginning. http://www.breviary.net/martyrology/martcal.htm

For instance, here is the reading of the Martyrology for today.

The Festival of All Saints, which Pope Boniface IV, after the dedication of the Pantheon, ordained to be kept generally and solemnly every year on the 13th of May, in the city of Rome, in honour of the blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God, and of the holy martyrs. It was afterwards decreed by Gregory IV that this feast, which was then celebrated in many dioceses, but at different times, should be on this day kept by the whole Church in honour of all the saints.

At Terracina in Campania, the birthday of St. Caesarius, deacon, who was detained many days in prison, afterwards put into a sack with the priest St. Julian, and then thrown into the sea.

At Dijon, St. Benignus, a priest, who was sent to France by blessed Polycarp to preach the Gospel. After he had been subjected to many grievous torments by the judge Terentius, under Emperor Marcus Aurelius, he was finally condemned to have his neck struck with an iron bar and his body pierced with a lance.

On the same day, St. Mary, a servant girl. Being accused of professing the Christian religion in the time of Emperor Hadrian, she was subjected to cruel scourging, to torture on the rack, and the lacerating of her body with iron hooks, and thus completed her martyrdom

At Tarsus in Cilicia, under Emperor Maximian, the Saints Cyrenia and Juliana.

While persecution is nothing new... the thing that is persecuting us is quite differenty in Islam to what happend in ancient Rome and so comparisons are deeply unhelpful... the nature of the persecution is different and so results in different outcomes... only soome of the methods are the same... Islam came after Christianity, Christianity came after Pagan Rome... Pagan Rome struggled to incorperate Christianity into its thinking... Islam already has predeposed ideological position onm Christianity, Pagan Rome was pluralist many gods, Islam is monolithic - one god, Pagan rome persecuted Christians because of gross misunderstandings... while gross misunderstandings do abound in Moslem circles that is not the reason for the persecution, but because of teachings about jihad and the Dhimitude status of Christains... the sharia has proven its self an effective killer of the Church.... DEAL WITH THAT FACT! If you surrender the sword, if you do not have an ideological stance capaable of countering Islam your going to end up being defeated by it... the sword historically is the final arbiter between who controls a society... Christ never told Peter to throw the Sword away... only to put it back in its sheath after he used... to allow the fathers will to be done...

And more so brother... your incling is not wrong... if GOD has armies in heaven... then should he not have armies on earth... Christ who comes as conquer who fashioned and used a weapon to deffend the temple... who called his disciples to arm themselves, who allowed themto use the sword when he comuld have stopped them... who did not condemn for using the sword... who said that men of violence clear a way for the kingdom of GOD... Christ who called thwe Maccabees to fight for the truth... who taught the prophets that there is a season for war... who calls us to a sacrificial love of our brethren.... this Christ wills that we stand up to Islam and its murderous hate of brethren.... it is not a sin to fight the Mujahdeen its a vocation... GOD is stirring this among his people... don't be brow bat by Liberals and cowards... who use bad theology to justify a double standards and villinise those who will not conform to their way of thinking...

 

[Nadiine]

Oh dear... what narrow constrained thinking... alas, I thought you would justify america fighting to deffend its self... and your beloved americans... but your Christians brethren.... they just have to sit there and die... sigh*

There is nothing unlawful or ungodly about Christians organising resistance to Islamic aggression... the church is bigger than America, it is all over the world, it is its own authority and can act under its own mandate... its does not need Americas permission to wage war against the Mujahadeen... indeed... Those honourable men that have attempted to stop the genocide in America...the American holocaust of the young... they should be seen as hereos not murderers... because what they have done is just!

Lol... as individuals we have little authority but as a body as a collective... we are our own authority... GOD gave his church authority... and coomanded it to ignore the state where the state was in conflict with GOD... helping the persecuted Church may well be against what pagan states like america would want... but it is the will of GOD... DEUS VULT!

Again, you do NOT find this in scripture - we are not under a theocracy which is what you need to have divine authority over ALL Christians. (militarily)

Further, it isn't just Islam who attacks Christians - communists and any secular God haters do this in different ways -
Are you going to march into China and take their govt. down too?

I'm not narrow minded, I'm afraid you're the one that has this backwards; as if EVERYONE who's Christian is somehow called to violence led by God?

Why hasn't GOD Himself drawn all His people together in this manner if this is what He wants? IF God wanted and expected this, He'd be calling all the Christian males into one unity of spirit and they'de be forming militias as we speak.

Are the mass majority of Christians wrong?

 

[Kas]

That would require that all Christians recognize one Christian authority.

We gave that up a long time ago. Until we are again united, this could never happen.

All christians do... Christ.... one earthly authority is not necessary... it requires that enough Christians recognise the issues and challenges and agree to make this happen...

 

[Nadiine]

All christians do... Christ.... one earthly authority is not necessary... it requires that enough Christians recognise the issues and challenges and agree to make this happen...

Eph 6
12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

 

[Secundulus]

While persecution is nothing new... the thing that is persecuting us is quite differenty in Islam to what happend in ancient Rome and so comparisons are deeply unhelpful... the nature of the persecution is different and so results in different outcomes... only soome of the methods are the same... Islam came after Christianity, Christianity came after Pagan Rome... Pagan Rome struggled to incorperate Christianity into its thinking... Islam already has predeposed ideological position onm Christianity, Pagan Rome was pluralist many gods, Islam is monolithic - one god, Pagan rome persecuted Christians because of gross misunderstandings... while gross misunderstandings do abound in Moslem circles that is not the reason for the persecution, but because of teachings about jihad and the Dhimitude status of Christains... the sharia has proven its self an effective killer of the Church.... DEAL WITH THAT FACT! If you surrender the sword, if you do not have an ideological stance capaable of countering Islam your going to end up being defeated by it... the sword historically is the final arbiter between who controls a society... Christ never told Peter to throw the Sword away... only to put it back in its sheath after he used... to allow the fathers will to be done...

And more so brother... your incling is not wrong... if GOD has armies in heaven... then should he not have armies on earth... Christ who comes as conquer who fashioned and used a weapon to deffend the temple... who called his disciples to arm themselves, who allowed themto use the sword when he comuld have stopped them... who did not condemn for using the sword... who said that men of violence clear a way for the kingdom of GOD... Christ who called thwe Maccabees to fight for the truth... who taught the prophets that there is a season for war... who calls us to a sacrificial love of our brethren.... this Christ wills that we stand up to Islam and its murderous hate of brethren.... it is not a sin to fight the Mujahdeen its a vocation... GOD is stirring this among his people... don't be brow bat by Liberals and cowards... who use bad theology to justify a double standards and villinise those who will not conform to their way of thinking...

I am not brow beat by liberal theology nor do I fail to understand Islam. But the fact is that there is not a single Christian nation in the entire world. This is a different situation from what was faced by Christians during the Crusades and later encounters with Islam.

Without the resources of a nation and a recognized central authority to back your desire, the best you could ever hope for is a disorganized mob that will be quickly suppressed.

 

[MrJim]

Your right these are two different things... America is not the church... and so the US amry is not a Christian Army though tragically many Christians serve in it... I am advocating the establishment of militairy order that is cross denominational and national...

What are the plans for command structure, training, logistics, intelligence, supply? Is it just an "idea" or is there any meat to it? Since it would obviously be a global "order" (since the church is worldwide) where would you ideally base it? Would it be run like the original Army of God~that is, the Israelites of the Old Testament, that got its power through prayer and leading of the prophets, or would it be of Clauswitz and Sun-Tzu? What about funding for the technology alone to wage a modern warfare-or would it be a guerilla crusade? Since numbers would be small in the beginning would it be primarily a tactical or strategic campaign?

Just questions from a former jarhead..

 

[Kas]

on ephesians... it states 'of this dark world

also... about the need for a central authority... al quaida is hardly suppressed and they are not backed by a nation state,..

 

[Secundulus]

on ephesians... it states 'of this dark world

also... about the need for a central authority... al quaida is hardly suppressed and they are not backed by a nation state,..

They are financed by several Muslim nations and protected by Pakistan.

 

[MrJim]

Another question Kas~what is your military background?

 

[Thekla]

Kas,

Christianity has survived the Muslim yoke and the Communist yoke. Glory be to Jesus Christ ! Secularism is a more fearsome yoke, for unlike paganism, Islam, and Communism, the "danger" is not so clear. Secularism attacks stealthily.

 

[Nadiine]

I truly believe that if this was God's will, we'd have to be living
under a Theocracy.
In that way, God had proper structure, military authority (thru a person who was a proven specified prophet) and order to unite, organize, supply, direct and initiate war on a specific group/country/govt.

As of now, which group of Islam do you go after? There's many of them - then there's China and N. Korea.... and whatever other countries.

It's just not even feasible - and again, God WOULD be calling out Christian males to unite if this were His plan and intent. I don't see God organizing anything like this in Christians around the globe.

 

[Cris413]

Again, you do NOT find this in scripture - we are not under a theocracy which is what you need to have divine authority over ALL Christians. (militarily)

Further, it isn't just Islam who attacks Christians - communists and any secular God haters do this in different ways -
Are you going to march into China and take their govt. down too?

I'm not narrow minded, I'm afraid you're the one that has this backwards; as if EVERYONE who's Christian is somehow called to violence led by God?

Why hasn't GOD Himself drawn all His people together in this manner if this is what He wants? IF God wanted and expected this, He'd be calling all the Christian males into one unity of spirit and they'de be forming militias as we speak.

Are the mass majority of Christians wrong?

You have an excellent point here...

bold emphasis: This would be no different than Islam. Allah may need his followers to kill for him...

Our God does not need any of us to deal with His enemies...which is going to be evident to the whole world when Jesus returns.

While the OT is full of examples of God leading His people to battle...It is God leading the armies as He goes before them...NOT the armies leading...according to their own will going into battle and throwing God in behind them.

A read in Deuteronomy 32 (among many others) shows pretty clearly... God doesn't need us...

...but He does allow us to participate in His Kingdom business...and without a clear and concise calling from God...It certainly wouldn't be wise to take matters into one's own hands by going on the offensive in the name of God when God has not commanded such.

And I seriously doubt...that God would call us to behave like Islam...where every man, woman and child is to be committed to jihad against the "small satan" - Israel and the "great satan" - the United States.

Vigilante justice is an oxymoron IMO.

Deu 32:39 "Now see that I, even I, am He,
And there is no God besides Me;
I kill and I make alive;
I wound and I heal;
Nor is there any who can deliver from My hand.
Deu 32:40 For I raise My hand to heaven,
And say, "As I live forever,
Deu 32:41 If I whet My glittering sword,
And My hand takes hold on judgment,
I will render vengeance to My enemies,
And repay those who hate Me.
Deu 32:42 I will make My arrows drunk with blood,
And My sword shall devour flesh,
With the blood of the slain and the captives,
From the heads of the leaders of the enemy."'
Deu 32:43 "Rejoice, O Gentiles, with His people;
For He will avenge the blood of His servants,
And render vengeance to His adversaries;
He will provide atonement for His land and His people."

 

[Secundulus]

While the OT is full of examples of God leading His people to battle...It is God leading the armies as He goes before them...NOT the armies leading...according to their own will going into battle and throwing God in behind them.

This is a good point. In those cases where Israel took the initiative and fought without God telling them, they lost badly.

 

[SolomonVII]

How does God inform us to go to war today?

 

[MrJim]

How does God inform us to go to war today?

Media and politicians

 

[Secundulus]

How does God inform us to go to war today?

If he wanted us to, he would raise up a prophet.

However, since Christianity remains divided and cannot even agree on the basic meaning of the word "Faith", how could God expect us to all to unite and follow a prophet?

 

[Cris413]

How does God inform us to go to war today?

This is a really good question...which was also on my mind as I composed my post....

What I consider is now the world is made up of many nations which have their own military...and those decisions are made by the leaders of each respective government...some leaders following false gods...and others sincerely seeking the One True God.

It is my opinion that in the case of the United States...regardless of popular opinion concerning George W Bush...I think he prayerfully considered going to war...I don't think he woke up one morning and thought..."After I have my toast and coffee...I think I'll go to war in Iraq"

The war on terrorism is a defensive act...not an act of offense. More so I consider "W" woke up on 9/11 and realized we were already at war and had been for over a decade or more...and took measures in response.

I also consider...as the world continues to remove God from our respective nations...leaders will be making more and more of these decisions based on their own agendas...certainly not based on the welfare of the people.

I think...at this point...God is allowing more and more leadership to take control...until He determines it's time to step in....once and FOREVER.

Mat 24:6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Mat 24:7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.
Mat 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
Mat 24:9 "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.

I don't think that God calls us to be on the offensive anymore...He's got it all under control...I do believe He does call us to protect ourselves though.

Which is evident IMHO...

Luk 22:35 And He said to them, "When I sent you without money bag, knapsack, and sandals, did you lack anything?"
So they said, "Nothing."
Luk 22:36 Then He said to them, "But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one.
Luk 22:37 For I say to you that this which is written must still be accomplished in Me: "And He was numbered with the transgressors.' For the things concerning Me have an end."
Luk 22:38 So they said, "Lord, look, here are two swords."
And He said to them, "It is enough."

 

[Nadiine]

If he wanted us to, he would raise up a prophet.

However, since Christianity remains divided and cannot even agree on the basic meaning of the word "Faith", how could God expect us to all to unite and follow a prophet?

how about getting us to agree that prophets even still operate in the NT

 

[Nadiine]

Media and politicians

(however sad that is)