was this prophecy fulfilled ?

[bling]

True if only we all agree that the bible and what it says is the word of god

We really do not have to “agree” that the Bible is “totally” true before you come to that conclusion yourself, since you are asking Christians “was this prophecy fulfilled”. We, as Christians, can show from what we have that the prophecy was fulfilled and how. Feel free to question anything you read and expect a logical answer. I and even the rest of us might not have the “answer” right off, but we (including you) can all study the scripture together to find the answer, we do not have to “consult” what some scholar said.

 

[iohannes]

That actually does bring up a question from me, lol. How do you guys view Jesus exactly? Do you see Him as just a true prophet? Or, do you see him as a false prophet since He told people He was God?

We see jesus peace be upon him as one of the greatest prophets sorry if my words aen't well chosen my english is weak but as i said we belive jesus never said he was god in the first place and you guys will comeback with some verses from the bible to prove that he said so my point is if we agread that what in the bible is true there would be no need to debate it .

 

[iohannes]

We really do not have to “agree” that the Bible is “totally” true before you come to that conclusion yourself, since you are asking Christians “was this prophecy fulfilled”. We, as Christians, can show from what we have that the prophecy was fulfilled and how. Feel free to question anything you read and expect a logical answer. I and even the rest of us might not have the “answer” right off, but we (including you) can all study the scripture together to find the answer, we do not have to “consult” what some scholar said.

I like that and i m gonna do it and it is exactly why im asking questions cuz most muslims don't even read the bible they say it's a false book since we belive the holly quran to be the word of god and the quran says the bible isnt true but we must read it to see why and try to prove our case i aint no muslim scholar too i just want to know about christianity prophets and history but for me to be honest and to ansewer the question what part we see as false i would say the first thing that strikes me from the begining is the trinity i mean for us its something that sorry but that makes no sense and i dpnt know why when we ask some pastor about it he is having trouble to explain it and trying and making a great effort for me the answer or relegion in the basis should be simple for all and we dont have to go to college to college to understand it .

 

[bling]

I like that and i m gonna do it and it is exactly why im asking questions cuz most muslims don't even read the bible they say it's a false book since we belive the holly quran to be the word of god and the quran says the bible isnt true but we must read it to see why and try to prove our case i aint no muslim scholar too i just want to know about christianity prophets and history but for me to be honest and to ansewer the question what part we see as false i would say the first thing that strikes me from the begining is the trinity i mean for us its something that sorry but that makes no sense and i dpnt know why when we ask some pastor about it he is having trouble to explain it and trying and making a great effort for me the answer or relegion in the basis should be simple for all and we dont have to go to college to college to understand it .

I cannot explain the trinity either since there is nothing in this world that comes close to relating to it (as far as I can tell), but that does not mean it could not exist.

We also need to start with what we agree on and learn together, so on the “trinity” let me see where we might start and have agreement:



1. Is God powerful enough to make Himself into a human form?

2. Is it impossible for God to be in two places at the same time?

3. What other reason would you have for a virgin birth?

4. If it would really be a gigantic help to man way above just sending prophets for God to come in the flesh; would God’s Love for man be great enough for God to come in the flesh?

 

[AvgJoe]

We see jesus peace be upon him as one of the greatest prophets sorry if my words aen't well chosen my english is weak but as i said we belive jesus never said he was god in the first place and you guys will comeback with some verses from the bible to prove that he said so my point is if we agread that what in the bible is true there would be no need to debate it .

Let's probe into that a little further. Did Jesus really say that He was God?

That’s exactly how Jesus’ original audience seemed to take it when He said, “I and the Father are one.” In fact, the Jews were ready to kill Him right there! Why? “Because you,” they said, “a mere man, claim to be God” (John 10:33).

On another occasion, He used the personal name of Israel’s God–the name revealed to Moses (Exodus 3:14)–to refer to Himself. And He even used the Torah for context, so no one would misunderstand Him: “Before Abraham was, I AM” (John 8:58).

This would be about as wild as someone telling you or one of your Muslim brothers, “I am your God, Allah.” What would be such a person's fate, if they were in Iran, and did such a thing. It’s no wonder the Jews tried to stone Him to death. That was the exact penalty for blasphemy under the Jewish legal system.

So, he wasn’t saying something like “I’m some other, generic god” like he was advocating polytheism. Not at all. It was pretty clear to everyone there that He was being much more specific…

Jesus was saying, “I am Israel’s God.”

But Jesus didn’t have to say the words “I am God,” in order to claim to be divine. But why is this a problem? Look, I don’t have to say the exact words, “I am married” to indicate that I’m married. I can tell you, “I’m her husband,” or “this is my wife,” or “it’s our 12th wedding anniversary.” The question is, what did the people who were actually a part of conversation think about what Jesus said?

So did Jesus say He was God? Not in the way you might have expected him to but we should not confuse the directness of a claim with the existence of a claim.” The historical evidence shows that Jesus actually claimed to be the God of Israel on many different occasions.

 

[iohannes]

Let's probe into that a little further. Did Jesus really say that He was God?

That’s exactly how Jesus’ original audience seemed to take it when He said, “I and the Father are one.” In fact, the Jews were ready to kill Him right there! Why? “Because you,” they said, “a mere man, claim to be God” (John 10:33).

On another occasion, He used the personal name of Israel’s God–the name revealed to Moses (Exodus 3:14)–to refer to Himself. And He even used the Torah for context, so no one would misunderstand Him: “Before Abraham was, I AM” (John 8:58).

This would be about as wild as someone telling you or one of your Muslim brothers, “I am your God, Allah.” What would be such a person's fate, if they were in Iran, and did such a thing. It’s no wonder the Jews tried to stone Him to death. That was the exact penalty for blasphemy under the Jewish legal system.

So, he wasn’t saying something like “I’m some other, generic god” like he was advocating polytheism. Not at all. It was pretty clear to everyone there that He was being much more specific…

Jesus was saying, “I am Israel’s God.”

But Jesus didn’t have to say the words “I am God,” in order to claim to be divine. But why is this a problem? Look, I don’t have to say the exact words, “I am married” to indicate that I’m married. I can tell you, “I’m her husband,” or “this is my wife,” or “it’s our 12th wedding anniversary.” The question is, what did the people who were actually a part of conversation think about what Jesus said?

So did Jesus say He was God? Not in the way you might have expected him to but we should not confuse the directness of a claim with the existence of a claim.” The historical evidence shows that Jesus actually claimed to be the God of Israel on many different occasions.

I agree on the fact that jesus peace be upon him didn't have to say the exactvwords i understand that he meant i am israel's god but again according to the bible we do not belive in the bible and thats the issu

 

[iohannes]

I cannot explain the trinity either since there is nothing in this world that comes close to relating to it

1. Is God powerful enough to make Himself into a human form?

2. Is it impossible for God to be in two places at the same time?

3. What other reason would you have for a virgin birth?

4. If it would really be a gigantic help to man way above just sending prophets for God to come in the flesh; would God’s Love for man be great enough for God to come in the flesh?

Yes god is powerful to make himself in human form but why if he is powerful enought to do that and get killed and humiliated by some jews (his creations)why didnt he just forgave our sins from where he is.

God is everywhere at the same time not just two places.

Jesus was born from only a mother you assume he's the son of god adam was created without father or mother why dont we call him god its the same logic ?!

God has given as free will and sent prophets to guide us with miracles sometimes what u are actually saying is gid came in flesh to guide us and yet he failed since prophets had mire followers than god

 

[AvgJoe]

I agree on the fact that jesus peace be upon him didn't have to say the exactvwords i understand that he meant i am israel's god but again according to the bible we do not belive in the bible and thats the issu

So when you said, "we belive jesus never said he was god in the first place", did you really mean that?

 

[iohannes]

So when you said, "we belive jesus never said he was god in the first place", did you really mean that?

Yes i mean it in our beliefs all the prophets peace be upon them including jesus had the same message lets worship god the one and only god and we do believe that jesus never said he was god. For us he is one of many prophets sure his birth was muraculos but that was a sign for the people to believe his message and thats all

 

[theophilus40]

Yes god is powerful to make himself in human form but why if he is powerful enought to do that and get killed and humiliated by some jews (his creations)why didnt he just forgave our sins from where he is.

God is just and justice requires that all sins be paid for. Either the sinner must be punished or the sin must be atoned for by the sacrifice of innocent blood. To forgive human sin requires the sacrifice of an innocent human and only Jesus is qualified to be that sacrifice. Because he is God as well as man his death is enough to atone for all the sins of the human race.

Jesus was born from only a mother you assume he's the son of god adam was created without father or mother why dont we call him god its the same logic ?!

Adam was created by God. His existence began when God formed him out of dust and breathed the breath of life into him. Jesus is God and has always existed just as the Father has. The incarnation wasn't the beginning of his existence but was the way in which he acquired a human nature in addition to his divine nature.

God has given as free will and sent prophets to guide us with miracles sometimes what u are actually saying is gid came in flesh to guide us and yet he failed since prophets had mire followers than god

Jesus did not fail. He atoned for our sins and now anyone who puts his faith in him is forgiven. He also fulfilled the prophesies that were made about him.

 

[bling]

Yes god is powerful to make himself in human form but why if he is powerful enought to do that and get killed and humiliated by some jews (his creations)why didnt he just forgave our sins from where he is.

Excellent question and some Christian scholars have tried to address that question with “theories of atonement”, which none so far as I can tell, have done a good job with. We can look at this together and think about.

First off: God in the Old Testament before Christ came to earth, did forgiven the sins of those that sincerely repented and turned to God for help (charity/forgiveness/mercy/grace). (If you would like I can list scripture to support the concept).

We can easily conclude God is loving enough to forgive the repentant child seeking His forgiveness.

So the question is: Why would Christ go through a torture, humiliation and murder if it was not to solve some problem God was having with forgiving sins?

As Christians believe and scripture states “God is our Father” and as a this most wonderful parent God would not only easily forgive us but if at all possible God would also see to our fair/just disciplining.

Wonderful Parents try to see to the disciplining of their rebellious disobedient children for all the right/good reasons discipline provides:

Deterrent for the person being disciplined and others aware of the discipline to keep from repeating the action.

It places the value on the transgression (the greater the “punishment” (disciplining) the bigger the transgression), sometimes we do not know how much pain it has caused until we know the “punishment” for the transgression.

It shows fairness and justice, the parent needs to be consistent and we want to know we have a fair and just parent.

It is a way to put the transgression behind us, since we have done the time for the crime.

It also should strength and improves the relationship between the parent and the child.

We know wonderful parent see to the discipline of the children they Love, so if our parents do not discipline (punish) us, we should rightfully question their love/concern for us.

The next question would be: How can God see to our fair just discipline when our disobedience is unbelievable huge (by God’s standard) and virtually any disciplining (punishment) should kill us?

Let me ask you this: Would you prefer to have your own child tortured and murdered before you for your personal transgressions or would you prefer to take the deserved punishment yourself?

Christ (the person I love more than anyone in this world) allowed Himself to be tortured, humiliated and murdered by wicked people, because I personally sinned (If I had not sinned and fulfilled my objective Christ would not have gone to the cross). This like those in Acts 2:37 cut me to the heart (I felt a death blow to my heart [the worst feeling I could have and live]) when I came to the realization of what Christ did for and because of me. As my Love for Christ has grown so has my empathy for what Christ went through.

What God’s desired result from my sinning and Christ going to the cross, is all the benefits of being disciplined and my realizing how unbelievable huge my debt of sin created so I could have an unbelievable huge Love. This huge Love is Godly type Love that is not instinctive (like a robotic type love) nor could God force me to accept this Love (that would not be Loving).

Jesus has taught us this philosophical truth “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”

Have you seen that truth fulfilled in your life from those that have humbly accept pure charity in the form of unconditional, sacrificial, selfless forgiveness?

I can give lots more on this subject.

God is everywhere at the same time not just two places.

Agreed.

Jesus was born from only a mother you assume he's the son of god adam was created without father or mother why dont we call him god its the same logic ?!

I am not suggesting: “Just because Jesus had a virgin birth He must be a God”. What I am suggesting if God was going to come down as both 100% man and 100% deity he might logically be part of a virgin birth. The question was not “does this make Jesus deity”, but “what other logical reason could there be” (and I personally do not know one)?

God has given as free will and sent prophets to guide us with miracles sometimes what u are actually saying is gid came in flesh to guide us and yet he failed since prophets had mire followers than god

Jesus was not trying to get the “masses” to follow him. As you know from history the masses are a fickle group, they cheer you for one moment and yell for your blood the next moment. Christ spent three years training the 12 of which one turned from him. This was our example of how to evangelize the world (we today are not following His example). He did go to the cross to help us both with disciplining and obtaining Love.

 

[iohannes]

Excellent question and some Christian scholars have tried to address that question with “theories of atonement”, which none so far as I can tell, have done a good job with. We can look at this together and think about.

First off: God in the Old Testament before Christ came to earth, did forgiven the sins of those that sincerely repented and turned to God for help (charity/forgiveness/mercy/grace). (If you would like I can list scripture to support the concept).

We can easily conclude God is loving enough to forgive the repentant child seeking His forgiveness.

So the question is: Why would Christ go through a torture, humiliation and murder if it was not to solve some problem God was having with forgiving sins?

As Christians believe and scripture states “God is our Father” and as a this most wonderful parent God would not only easily forgive us but if at all possible God would also see to our fair/just disciplining.

Wonderful Parents try to see to the disciplining of their rebellious disobedient children for all the right/good reasons discipline provides:

Deterrent for the person being disciplined and others aware of the discipline to keep from repeating the action.

It places the value on the transgression (the greater the “punishment” (disciplining) the bigger the transgression), sometimes we do not know how much pain it has caused until we know the “punishment” for the transgression.

It shows fairness and justice, the parent needs to be consistent and we want to know we have a fair and just parent.

It is a way to put the transgression behind us, since we have done the time for the crime.

It also should strength and improves the relationship between the parent and the child.

We know wonderful parent see to the discipline of the children they Love, so if our parents do not discipline (punish) us, we should rightfully question their love/concern for us.

The next question would be: How can God see to our fair just discipline when our disobedience is unbelievable huge (by God’s standard) and virtually any disciplining (punishment) should kill us?

Let me ask you this: Would you prefer to have your own child tortured and murdered before you for your personal transgressions or would you prefer to take the deserved punishment yourself?

Christ (the person I love more than anyone in this world) allowed Himself to be tortured, humiliated and murdered by wicked people, because I personally sinned (If I had not sinned and fulfilled my objective Christ would not have gone to the cross). This like those in Acts 2:37 cut me to the heart (I felt a death blow to my heart [the worst feeling I could have and live]) when I came to the realization of what Christ did for and because of me. As my Love for Christ has grown so has my empathy for what Christ went through.

What God’s desired result from my sinning and Christ going to the cross, is all the benefits of being disciplined and my realizing how unbelievable huge my debt of sin created so I could have an unbelievable huge Love. This huge Love is Godly type Love that is not instinctive (like a robotic type love) nor could God force me to accept this Love (that would not be Loving).

Jesus has taught us this philosophical truth “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”

Have you seen that truth fulfilled in your life from those that have humbly accept pure charity in the form of unconditional, sacrificial, selfless forgiveness?

I can give lots more on this subject.


Agreed.


I am not suggesting: “Just because Jesus had a virgin birth He must be a God”. What I am suggesting if God was going to come down as both 100% man and 100% deity he might logically be part of a virgin birth. The question was not “does this make Jesus deity”, but “what other logical reason could there be” (and I personally do not know one)?



Jesus was not trying to get the “masses” to follow him. As you know from history the masses are a fickle group, they cheer you for one moment and yell for your blood the next moment. Christ spent three years training the 12 of which one turned from him. This was our example of how to evangelize the world (we today are not following His example). He did go to the cross to help us both with disciplining and obtaining Love.

Your logic is somehow for me good but you assum that i agree on that father and son relationship between god and us but i dont we actually see ourselfs more like slaves than children yes god is just but according to our belifs and what we have in holly quran we were created to worship god and nothing else this is our purps in life in everything we do we want to please god and if we do that we go to heaven if we dont we go to hell and for us everyone is responsible for his sins and to respond to ur exemle yes if i have a son i would sacrifice myself for his sins but that doesnt make it just . If your kid kills a man will we kill you for his sin and if everyone who belives in jesus has his sins forgiven then he can do whatever he likes

 

[theophilus40]

Your logic is somehow for me good but you assum that i agree on that father and son relationship between god and us but i dont we actually see ourselfs more like slaves than childrenyes god is just but according to our belifs and what we have in holly quran we were created to worship god and nothing else this is our purps in life in everything we do we want to please god and if we do that we go to heaven if we dont we go to hell

What you have said so far is very close to the truth. When we are born into this world we aren't children of God. We are beings who were created by God to worship and serve him and the our eternal destiny depends on our fulfilling our purpose.

There is one other fact you haven't mentioned. None of us is capable of living up to the standards God has set for us. We have all sinned and we all deserve eternal condemnation in Hell.

and for us everyone is responsible for his sins and to respond to ur exemle yes if i have a son i would sacrifice myself for his sins but that doesnt make it just.

In spite of our sins God loves us and wants us to be with him. There is one way sin can be removed; it can be atoned for by the blood of a perfect sacrifice. Jesus came into the world to be that sacrifice. He was perfect in that he never sinned. The blood he shed when he was crucified was intended to pay for our sins. His resurrection is proof that God accepted that sacrifice. Whoever repents of sin and puts his faith in Jesus will be forgiven and will become a child of God.

If your kid kills a man will we kill you for his sin and if everyone who belives in jesus has his sins forgiven then he can do whatever he likes

When a person is forgiven he is spiritually reborn with a nature that wants to please God. He won't be able to live a life of sin as he could before he was saved.

 

[bling]

Your logic is somehow for me good but you assum that i agree on that father and son relationship between god and us but i dont we actually see ourselfs more like slaves than children yes god is just but according to our belifs and what we have in holly quran we were created to worship god and nothing else this is our purps in life in everything we do we want to please god and if we do that we go to heaven if we dont we go to hell and for us everyone is responsible for his sins and to respond to ur exemle yes if i have a son i would sacrifice myself for his sins but that doesnt make it just . If your kid kills a man will we kill you for his sin and if everyone who belives in jesus has his sins forgiven then he can do whatever he likes

First off: I agree with you fully: it would not be just/fair, as you say: “if i have a son i would sacrifice myself for his sins but that doesnt make it just”!

That was not the point I was trying to make, but you did seem to get the point.

You personally would prefer to be tortured, humiliated and murdered for your own sins, than have your son to be torture, humiliated and murdered for you sins (not his sins).
This is the reason i
t hurts the true Christian more when he/she comes to the realization Christ was torture, humiliated and murdered because of their sins (not his sins and not to help God out someway.)

As a result of this realization the empathetic “hurt” is actually the worst possible experience a person that really loves Christ can endure and still live. That hurting because of your sins, is the disciplining for the believing sinner provided at great cost by Christ and God. If is a huge deterrent to sinning again, shows the Love Christ and God has for believers, shows how bad sin is, and makes God’s forgiveness hugely more significant.

I am aware Muslims do not call God “Father or Shepherd” and Christians do and the Bible repeatedly conveys that relationship, but Muslims do talk about the Love of God being 40 times greater than the love of a mother for her child.

Love between two beings can be defined as the amount of willing sacrifice one will make for the other. Christians define God as actually being Love, so God’s love for humans is the epitome of sacrifice or we might say: God is totally unselfish toward those He created.

That would mean (just like an extremely loving mother toward her child) God is not trying to get something back from His children, but wants to gift his children with the all the greatest gifts possible. Since Love compels God to do all God does do that Love is the most powerful force in all universe (remember the bible says God is Love (the most powerful force in all universes).

God wants to gift humans with this Love, but this Love is way too great for man to have instinctively (that would be robotic type love) and man could not develop such Love on his own, earn/deserve this Love nor pay God back for being given this Love. God could not force this Love on a person against the person’s will since that would not be loving. So the reason man was created and lives on earth is not to “give” something to God (God does not need anything), but to humbly accept God’s pure charity in the form of Forgiveness so man can obtain Godly type love.

 

[iohannes]

Well god doesnt need us at all to worship him or to accept his love demonstrated as a sacrifice and yet he created us there must be a reason god the creator of all beings would he love more a man that worships him day and night who loves him and yet fears him at the same time a man who speaks the name of god 100 time and more per day or a man that lives his life freely and just accepting gods love as a sacrifice of his son who did nothing to be killed would he love more the man who thx him for every gift he had given us a man who speaks the name of god and prays to him in need and without need in health before sickness or a man who remembers god in diffecult times ([bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse])? Let me ask you this if you had two friends you love that you helped many times who would you love more the first comes to you even when he doesnt need anything thx you for your help and comes to you when hes in need or the friend who only speaks to you when he needs you ?

 

[Faulty]

Its clear thx but i was referring to the fact that jesus died and was buried dead on the other hand jonas was alive in the belly of the whale or is it just the time factor?

Jonah probably did die in the whale and was raised again, as his prayer right before his release seems to indicate:

The waters closed in over me to take my life; the deep surrounded me; weeds were wrapped about my head at the roots of the mountains.

I went down to the land whose bars closed upon me forever; yet you brought up my life from the pit, O Lord my God.
Jonah 2:5-6​

 

[Radagast]

Its clear thx but i was referring to the fact that jesus died and was buried dead on the other hand jonas was alive in the belly of the whale or is it just the time factor?

Well, it's not just the time factor -- the whale was a kind of tomb for Jonah. He would not have emerged alive without intervention by God.

Inside the whale, Jonah was deep below the surface of the Earth, and his prayer (Jonah chapter 2) describes himself as in "the belly of Sheol" and in "the pit." This is language which is intended to make the reader think of death and the grave.

 

[Radagast]

if everyone who belives in jesus has his sins forgiven then he can do whatever he likes

Christianity teaches the opposite of that actually. The Apostle Paul write in Romans 6:

"What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

... We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions.

... But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. ..."

 

[bling]

Well god doesnt need us at all to worship him or to accept his love demonstrated as a sacrifice and yet he created us there must be a reason god the creator of all beings would he love more a man that worships him day and night who loves him and yet fears him at the same time a man who speaks the name of god 100 time and more per day

I when over the Christian logical reason for God to create man and it was not so man could worship Him. Would God creating man to have man worship Him be a self-centered reason or at least show a self-desired need of God?

or a man that lives his life freely and just accepting gods love as a sacrifice of his son who did nothing to be killed would he love more the man who thx him for every gift he had given us a man who speaks the name of god and prays to him in need and without need in health before sickness or a man who remembers god in diffecult times ([bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse])?

You are very right Jesus did nothing to be sacrificed for and God did not like the wicked people torturing and murdering Christ, but God and Christ allowed it to happen to help willing individuals fulfill their earthly objective.

God’s Love extends way beyond just the one act of allowing Christ to go to the cross so we might have a way to be disciplined, receive all the benefits from being disciplined and live.

Do you agree with the truth Jesus taught and we also find being played out in the world around us:
“…he that is forgiven much Loves much…”? (Just for clarity: forgiveness has to be humbly accepted as pure charity to complete the transaction of forgiveness does not take place).

God is a 24/7 activity for true Christians. God is with us working through us all the time, even on our job, at work or at home.

Let me ask you this if you had two friends you love that you helped many times who would you love more the first comes to you even when he doesnt need anything thx you for your help and comes to you when hes in need or the friend who only speaks to you when he needs you ?

You bring up another excellent point and something all of us have observed about “some” people calling themselves “Christians”, but I am very sorry to say, you might have been misled or you have misunderstood some true Christianity.

Let me turn your question around: If you had two children you loved and one “thanked you” because he was told he needed to do that by you and others, and would be disciplined if he did not and he also felt he would be “rewarded” in some way from you in the future if he did thank you, as compared to the other child “thanking you”, knowing there was nothing more for him to get from you, realizing you have given him everything there is to get, and did it not because he was told, but just out of pure gratitude, which would be the greater thanks?

What significance is there to a “thanks” form self-centered motivations as compared to a thanks from a purely from a selfless, unconditional, charitable Love?