Unconditional Love?

[bodhitree]

Okay, this comes up a lot, and its actually on the table right now, but I am not allowed to participate in the discussion, I can only do this. So here goes...

My husband loves me very much. He tells me I am the world to him, that he cares about me. Hes wonderful, except, on occasion he takes me aside, holds up a blow torch, and says, bodhi, if you dont love me back, with all of your humanly ability, and you dont follow the couple of things I ask for you, I promise, I will tie you up in the basement, and burn you with this, slowly, so that you scream and cry, and I will never stop. You only have one chance, and if you screw it up with me, you will never live it down.

The reason why I put this as this, is because I saw this analogy somewhere else, and it chilled me to the bone. It made me ill. For so long I have accepted that God's plan of burning everyone who doesnt believe alive for eternity is fine because hes God. I never thought of myself in that situation. But when I saw it as my future husband, someone who I trust so completely, who I know loves me, someone who seems good and just...well. It was horrifying.

The husband described above is psychotic, homicidal, lacking in any real understanding of true human love. That isnt a loving relationship, that is pleasing someone because they have a gun to your back. That isnt free will, it is slavery.

I marvel in the beautiful love I share with my fiance because he loves me, he doesnt judge me, but he instead loves me with no real expect for anything in return. And yes, this is an aspect of God's love, and if God's love is like that, then it IS beautiful! How wonderful!

But, the difference is, my fiancee would never hurt a hair on my head. He loves me so much, if I left him, he would be sad, but, he would still love me. And wish well for me.

To someone who really wants to understand and follow the right path like me, I dont want to burn alive in hell because I refuse to be put into a situation where I "accept something" just because I want to save my own skin. I dont want to be in a relationship like that, I want to know that whoever it is that is out there will always love me, because if not, then, its just not a relationship at all.

Could the just and God-is-love God not just love and love, and when we arrive to the pearly gates, could we just realize then and there the love that we had accepted, or rejected? I feel that the remorse from realizing we had passed up love would be punishment enough - just as one suddenly reunites with their lost relative - and then, weeping, run to God's arms and finally accept what they spent a lifetime missing (which, I think, is punishment enough).

God-is-love and God-will-punish-the-stubborn-in-the-worst-way is two very different things. Am I wrong?

If a child invites their class to their birthday party because they admire their classmates and want them there with them, does the child, who is innocent, pure, and full of love for others still at this point, cry when certain classmates dont show up, or does the child find the missing classmates at school the next day and staple their hands to the desk to make them remorse (and will the stapled children really be remorseful, or will they be terrified of their terrorist-classmate?)

(I used staples because when I was in kindergarten, a classmate accidentally stapled their hands and it was bloody, horrific mess, and it was one of the first times I saw suffering, and I didnt know the kid, but boy, I still feel bad for him to this day)

So basically, I want to know, which god is the true God? For surely, both cannot exist, they contradict one another? Help me out here, I am confused. Thank you!

 

[FutureAndAHope]

God requires us to show love as people. He requires a genuine care and affection from our lives. Those who refuse to show care for one another, are those who are in danger of hell. The bible only really gives one attempt to explain God's reason for condemning people to hell. It basically says "what if God after a long time of trying (reaching out) to a person, wishes to show his great wrath and make his power known against them".

So that is all I can sumise, is that God wants to prove that he truly has all power, and can not be stopped from things that he wants, and to show he is wrathful against those who do not love.

 

[Still Looking]

I hear what you're saying, Bhoditree! You're not the only confused one out there.

It's living in fear, and it doesn't seem logical to me either...

So that is all I can sumise, is that God wants to prove that he truly has all power, and can not be stopped from things that he wants, and to show he is wrathful against those who do not love.

This doesn't sound like a good thing! I want to join in with those who love God, and I believe that they do. I just need to be shown how people can look at things like this and see the silver lining. They obviously know something I don't.

How can you (Christians) all say (and I don't mean this in a disbelieving "you're all nuts" way, I really genuinely want to know, to learn) that while God loves us all, He wants to prove his power, and how he'll get his way in the end one way or another? (And it looks like it won't be pretty, according to Revelations)

In short, how can you love God when you're afraid of Him? ARE you afraid of Him? How can you love someone who, like Bhoditree's analogy of the two-faced husband, threatens to send you to Hell if you leave him, or if you live your life the way you want to?

Part of this is that I don't believe in living in fear. It seems illogical to me. And the other is simply the Problem of Evil which comes up in many a philosophy study - "Why, if God is so good and loving, does He make bad things happen and send people to Hell?"

I don't usually let the Problem of Evil get to me because I don't think on it for too long, and it's one of those things in response to which I just sigh and tell myself "But listen to your instincts and trust Him. He's working in your life and you know it." But I would like to settle this with myself at some stage in my life, so I figured this was a good place to ask.

Maybe I should have just started my own thread!

Thanks for your time, whoever replies.

 

[CrimsonJoker]

Okay think about it this way:

A teenager walks up the his school, having been teased all his life by students and teachers alike burns it down. The police show up and arrest him, he serves probation and Juvi time. Is this wrong because he was teased? Now had the boy merely admitted what he had done, why he had done it, and how sorry he was more then likely his punishment would be less.

Another example: A child accidently burns their parent with a pot of boiling water, the parent shouts, spanks and grounds the child for a week. During this time the child will consider their parent a hateful person and be in terrible fear of them. Had the child listened to the parents warning and not played in the kitchen when they were cooking however this never would have occured. The child later comes out of their room and apologizes and suddenly sees their parent as loving again.

Where God is not human, why would it make sense for humans to be one second seen as hateful and the next loving, when God doesnt? Were we not created in his Image?

Thus, God gives you the chance to find solace in happiness and forgiveness. He is a loving God, but scorn him as the child did their parent and you will be punished. God is an eternal being, thus his punishment is Eternal. A person can become a Christian through fear, many I am sure have done it, but its what you do after you "become" that matters, not why you did it.

 

[CrimsonJoker]

Another way to consider it is if you had a child whos life and essence was in danger and the only way to save them was to threaten them, would you do it? Or would you let them suffer?

 

[the.Sheepdog]

It is not as difficult as some would have you believe. God loved you so much that He wanted to be with you. But He gave you free will and people were led astray into sin.

God cannot be around sin. it stinks! So He knew the only way He could be around us is to have that sin negated. Sin deserves death. We all do.

But if God paid that punishment for us then we are pure again to Him. God gave of himself and sacrificed Jesus to suffer for all the wrong you ever did or would do. All paid for. If you accept that free gift you are pure.

I love my wife enough to give my life to her and for her safety if needs be. I cannot imagine it any other way. 14 years now he is my soul mate. This month on the 17th in fact!

Jesus loved me so much he felt the same and did die for me. How could I not be devoted to him? Imagine the love of your guy and multiply it by infinity.

He loved me first. unconditionally whether I come to him or not. He gives me the choice and never threatens. Those that threaten are not of God.

Absence from God is literally hell. No flame or fire invented by men can ever be worse than not having God in my life. It is always my choice.

and by choice I could never resist irresistible unconditional love.

 

[bodhitree]

I'm in green

Okay think about it this way:

A teenager walks up the his school, having been teased all his life by students and teachers alike burns it down. The police show up and arrest him, he serves probation and Juvi time. Is this wrong because he was teased? Now had the boy merely admitted what he had done, why he had done it, and how sorry he was more then likely his punishment would be less.

The issue with this is, the teenager handled his pain from being teased all his life in a destructive manner. A healthy, mentally sound person would not act this way, a mentally sound person would feel hurt and pain and maybe even harbor negative feelings, but would be able to see the difference between feeling pain and exacting pain on people. A truly great God - a just and loving one - should be able to have infinite patience and be beyond human weakness. Could you clarify what you mean? Maybe I just misread it?

Another example: A child accidently burns their parent with a pot of boiling water, the parent shouts, spanks and grounds the child for a week. During this time the child will consider their parent a hateful person and be in terrible fear of them. Had the child listened to the parents warning and not played in the kitchen when they were cooking however this never would have occured. The child later comes out of their room and apologizes and suddenly sees their parent as loving again.

This parent is abusive. This parent obviously cannot control their anger in front of their child, the child made a mistake, but the child probably made a mistake the parent did when THEY were a child, so why does the parent respond so violently? The parent here is literally teaching the child how to be hateful, the parent was quick to anger, reacted violently, and as a result, yes the child is probably scared senseless, but here, the parent is teaching the child to handle situations violently, that its the only response. So, as a result, this child may end up treating their own children violently. Who knows? A severely treated child may have difficulty in the future controlling their anger.....maybe this is why humans are so ruthless, and kill each other? Maybe we learned it from God?

Parents being angry at their children is not a universal concept, in fact, maybe our culture gets it because we have learned it from the God of Abraham, but, one example is, many Native American groups would never, ever raise their voice against or hurt their children. They were taught with patience, love, and kindness, and when they made a mistake, the parents just showed them the correct way again. Children were not shown anger because it was feared if an adult reacted meanly to a child, the child may commit suicide in shame. These children generally ended up being wonderful members of society and didnt need punishment or fear.

Where God is not human, why would it make sense for humans to be one second seen as hateful and the next loving, when God doesnt? Were we not created in his Image?

So God is as sinful as we are? This doesnt make sense to me, maybe I am misreading it? We are lots of things that we are not supposed to be, because God is the perfect standard we're supposed to be measuring ourselves against.

Sheepdog (cute username)

He loved me first. unconditionally whether I come to him or not. He gives me the choice and never threatens. Those that threaten are not of God.

Absence from God is literally hell. No flame or fire invented by men can ever be worse than not having God in my life. It is always my choice.

Now this, this makes a lot of sense, like, I can understand is one would see the absence of God as "hell", maybe not gnashing of teeth and sulfurous fire and brimstone and some weird little horned dude running around, but just plain...seperation from one's true nature. (Buddhist hells are somewhat like this, but Buddhist hells are really confusing and crazy and I am not saying I know much about them! lol)

Sheepdog, how do you view the passages in the Bible about hell then? It seems to me that maybe you take them as symbolic? Are we allowed to do that, I mean, I feel that it would make the most sense, but literalist Christians would disagree.

I guess, I am really confused as to if I can view the Bible in a reasonable sense, or if I have to believe it literally. Thanks for the great replies both of you!

 

[CrimsonJoker]

An answer I can give you my dear is that God isn't a homicidal Husband, he isnt psychotic. He is loving, and he is just. Every action has a reaction, sin without repentence, go to hell, sin with repentence go to heaven. A human's actions dictate their fate. God doesnt damn you for what you do, you damn yourself

 

[salida]

bodhitree-

Its more like people ignoring the one medicine that the doctors have to save them physically and ignoring your parents as a kid when they say the stove is hot. Would you let someone in your house if they rejected you 1000 or more times? Why should God let people in His house who rejects Him their whole life? God won't override free will and make robots out of us. Instead people want to be the god of their lives and not the living God.

 

[bodhitree]

An answer I can give you my dear is that God isn't a homicidal Husband, he isnt psychotic. He is loving, and he is just. Every action has a reaction, sin without repentence, go to hell, sin with repentence go to heaven. A human's actions dictate their fate. God doesnt damn you for what you do, you damn yourself

Okay, so I think I finally understand you. He isnt any of those things sime Christians say, i think i have been really mislead by fear-mongering.

Actions are what dictate your fate, so acting as a good person will make you alright in God's eyes? He's not a hateful God?

See, where I find the difficulty is when people say hes just and loving in the same sentence as saying hes going to throw you into a pit of firey death if you dont say the magic words and believe the same thing as one (very fractured tumultuous) group of people.

And please, if you could refrain from calling me "dear" in the future, I am sure you meant it compassionately, but it still made me uncomfortable nonetheless.

Would you let someone in your house if they rejected you 1000 or more times? Why should God let people in His house who rejects Him their whole life? God won't override free will and make robots out of us. Instead people want to be the god of their lives and not the living God.

I understand this, I mean, its like, hey! youre going to die if you dont take that pill! Yes, that makes perfect sense, but what the hang up is, do those people really deserve horrific torture? Are they just dying, and ceasing to exist, or are they boiling alive? There is a difference from just allowing to cease (this death that we are supposed to be saved from) and going out of your way to torture.

However, if my child was being a jerk, rejected me, left home, never talked to me, but then showed up at age 40 or something ridiculous, I wouldnt slam the door in her face. I would probably break down into tears and take her back. I would just be happy shes back. This is the kind of God you all are describing to me.

I am assuming God loves his creations like a Father. A truly just Father isnt going to ever turn away his kids. That makes sense too, right?

 

[truthseeker22]

If you love you love you will love through tick and thin with all the problems associated with it.

 

[Van]

Hi Bodhitree,

Yet another "problem" based on a misconception about the gospel of Christ. Now to be fair, there are two main groups of Christians, those that believe once a person is born again, they are saved forever, and those who believe you can lose your salvation. Your problem is with the "other gospel" of those who believe you can lose your salvation.

My view is that everyone is born into an unsaved state, and so if they remain unsaved, they will not go to heaven. However, if a person puts their trust fully in Christ, and God credits that faith as righteousness, then God causes the person to be spiritually "born again" a new creation, and the new creation is sealed with the indwelt Holy Spirit forever, which is God's pledge of unconditional love.

 

[freeport]

Okay, this comes up a lot, and its actually on the table right now, but I am not allowed to participate in the discussion, I can only do this. So here goes...

My husband loves me very much. He tells me I am the world to him, that he cares about me. Hes wonderful, except, on occasion he takes me aside, holds up a blow torch, and says, bodhi, if you dont love me back, with all of your humanly ability, and you dont follow the couple of things I ask for you, I promise, I will tie you up in the basement, and burn you with this, slowly, so that you scream and cry, and I will never stop. You only have one chance, and if you screw it up with me, you will never live it down.

<snip>

That is not the Christian belief, not at all.

I don't know where you got that stuff.


One has to deeply twist Scripture out of context to come up with such silly teachings.

 

[CoderHead]

A human's actions dictate their fate. God doesnt damn you for what you do, you damn yourself

I don't buy that. I didn't create Hell. So if my actions on Earth are to love my fellow humans and be happy, then what I deserve is peaceful rest when my time is up. My actions as stated don't warrant eternal punishment - fire or not. If I were damning myself to anything it would be a warm bed and feather pillow.

The fact that God created Hell with a specific intent (infinite punishment for finite crimes), tells me you've got Him all wrong.

 

[fm107]

God love towards us is unmeasurable, uncomprohendable and not speakable in words.

He gave his own son to die in our stead. There is no greater love than that.

John 15:13
Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.

Also, God created everyone with the feelings of love, your fiance only loves you the way he does because God created us with these feelings, therefore God (who has infinite understanding) knows everything about love, he knows so much more about love in comparison to that of your fiancee as to what love is.

God is love!

1 John 4:16
And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him.

.....

As for people who go to hell, these people have rejected Christ. They deserve to go to hell for they are guilty and would not repent for what they have done. God has his arm outstretched all someone has to do is reach up and grab it.

We are blessed that we have come to the knowledge of the truth and the love of God which is towards mankind.

Here's one more quote:

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

God wants all people to be saved but man is wicked in their thought and action. They prefer darkness to light, it's not as though they are "missing" God as if they didn't realise that God was there in life. Man rejects God, they hate the light, they hate God. The world is blessed that God is patient, that in itself shows God's love.

 

[fm107]

The fact that God created Hell with a specific intent (infinite punishment for finite crimes), tells me you've got Him all wrong.

It was not and is not God's intent that any man should go to hell. Hell was originally made for the devil and his angels.

God wants all man to repent but man is too stubborn and unwilling to do this.

Matthew 25:41
Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

 

[childofGod31]

I just like to express some thoughts:

First of all, we don't really know what HELL really is and how long it really is and what happens to humans when they get there. We have some statements said about it that we might misunderstand or misinterpret. We don't know why it exists (except that it's said that God created it for the devil and his angels). But we don't know why hell was created for them and how it would affect them. What kind of a "fire" it is that burns spiritual beings, or does it?

We, as people, are really really good at pronouncing judgements at things we don't know and expressing our opinions on things we don't understand ( I do it too. It's just our human nature. Although the wiser of us know that we don't know the truth. But the more foolish of us think that their judgements are actually true.)

God and satan - there is definitely a lot more going on then we can understand. It's like we are living in a story where some of the key pages were ripped out and we are left guessing and trying to piece together what happened.

There is a lot of bad in the world. And how can WE, humans, who can't even see what's going on in a spiritual world, can tell who did what? Sometimes satan comes and whispers his bad thoughts into our head and we accept them as our own (and we don't even know that we were just tricked)

The Bible says that satan seeks to destroy humankind
The Bible says that satan is a liar and has blinded the minds/eyes of the people in this world
The Bible says that satan is associated with evil. He is "the evil one".

The Bible says that all good things come from above.
The Bible says that God is perfect, righteous and just
The Bible says that God is loving towards all He has made
The Bible says that God does no wrong

We walk by faith, we believe what the Bible says. But some people would say: how can you just blindly believe in the goodness of God and not see what's going on around you? Can you not see that God said one thing in the Bible, but we see something different on practice?

Well, "SEEING" is the key word here. We can't "see". Remember it says that satan has blinded the eyes of the world. But if you say that's a lie, then look closely as how we are really bad at communicating with each other, how we are really bad at reading each others moods, how we are really bad at not really understanding what's going on (in this or that situation). How we don't even know ourselves. We have to have a psychologist tell us why we do certain things (because we can't figure it out). Some people are not even aware of the other, spiritual world , all around them, the beings who constantly use them and confuse them.

Some people work work work and then die. Would you not call that "blind"? You are working yourself to death so that you could enjoy a few last days on earth? or what? Don't people know that they can die at any moment? Don't they know that getting stuck in a cycle of work and eat and work and eat (and spend no time for enjoying each other) is a form of blindness and vanity and foolishness?

Well, of course they don't know. They are blinded by the "god" of this age (satan). But God opens the eyes of those who come to Him and they start to see things in their real colors. They start to understand that you can't overcome evil with evil - that will only bring more evil. But the rest of the world keeps doing that and doing that and got stuck in the circle of evil.

My point is - we know so little, and we judge so much. If we are Bible believing Christians, we need to believe in the statements God made about Himself in the Bible. We can't live by what we see on practice because it's not what it seems and it's all confusing and we are not sure what's really going on. We can't judge what we can't see. We THINK we can see. But people really can't even see into their best friends hearts. So many times we judge others for what we ourselves do and yet we dont SEE that we are doing the same thing. We are a pretty BLIND society in this world. We judge people left and right. And yet our judgements are often wrong. Because we Do NOT SEE the situations. We are not judging correctly.

We do the same with God. We judge Him even though we really don't know which actions belong to Him and which belong to His enemy, the hater of humanity, the one that's walking around us, like a roaring lion, seeking whom and how to destroy. Yes, God is ultimately in control, and yes, He is allowing satan to do some things here. But ask yourself: why? You don't know why, do you? You can conjecture, but most likely it will be a wrong conclusion. And besides, satan could help you guess. He can implant his own thoughts into your head and you won't even know it.

We have to admit that we are blind. And that only God can open some people's eyes to the real truth, to the reality of what's going on. And God did not reveal His secrets just yet. He gave little bits and pieces here and there and all He says is: trust me. I know what I am doing. You just have to trust me. And that's our situation: do we trust Him? Or do we reject him and are left under satan's control? The one who for sure hates you and wants to destroy you?

Yes, God loves His creation. It says that Jesus actually wept over the rebellious Israelites. He loved them. But He couldn't help them, so He wept over them. Do you know why He coudln't help them? I don't know either... But we will sure pronounce judgement without knowing because that's what we do best. God is sad at seeing sinners going their ways. God wants all the sinners to repent, it says so in the Bible. It also says that God does not desire the death of the wicked, but that they would repent and live. And who knows WHY the wicked need to die if they don't repent? Well, we can conjecture, but we don't know. We are too small and our brains too tiny and we lack vital information. We so often become exalted in our own mind because of our ignorance. We think we know so much, but we really don't.

It says that God chose some people (before the creation of the world) to be His. According to His FOREKNOWLEDGE. What kind of foreknowledge did God use to choose some people before they were even born? Can you answer that? Jesus also said that the kingdom of heaven is like lots of fish being caught in the net. Bad and good. The good was kept and the bad was thrown away. So this is what humanity is: some are good fish and some are bad fish. Why is that? How did that happen? We have only questions...