Unconditional Election - Please Help

[PrettyboyAndy]

Hello All,

I am a Baptist, I would consider myself a Calvinist. I am having a difficult time accepting unconditional election, after having a debate with someone, and also after doing some research. I have the following 4 points I am trying to see how they fit in with unconditional election, and the view I hold of being dead in your sins, unable to come to Christ without effectual calling.

Jesus Healing People By Their Faith
1 - If Jesus healed people based on their faith, would it be safe to say that faith was given to them? Jesus does however say by your faith you will be healed. BUT Faith is a gift. - It seems both are right, why would he ask if they believe, if he is the one who gives the faith. - Kind of like, me asking you to give me my cellphone that's in my pocket, but you can't give it to me unless I take it out my pocket and give it to you.

Unconditional Election
2- Unconditional election requires that:
a) God sovereignly predetermines both election and reprobation.
b) If God sovereignly appointed man to reprobation and creates him anyway, then man cannot help but be reprobate and therefore is not responsible for being reprobate.
c) Since man is not responsible for being reprobate, man cannot be blamed for being reprobate.
d) If man cannot be blamed for being reprobate, he cannot be justly condemned.
e) Since some men are reprobate and justly condemned, unconditional election is false?
f) I believe people are dead in their sins, and can not come to Christ without God opening their hearts, giving the individual the initial faith to believe, but then that would mean he also doesn't give faith to others? - Unless you take the position of conditional election.

God Likened unto a King
3 - If we liken God unto a King, who has thousands of people imprisoned in a dungeon, for another man crime. (original sin) And if He declares that:
a) I want all of you to be set free
b) I have love and mercy for you all
c) I love you so much I have sent my son to pay the penalty for your crimes
d) Whosoever chooses to do so may leave the prison cells and go free
e) The cells are locked, and only the King has the keys (People dead in their sins, and cannot come to Christ left alone)
f) So regardless of what you say or do, I will unconditionally open a few doors and let some of you go.
g) If God has to give the initial faith to believe, because we are dead in our sins, then that would seem to God creates some for special purposes (salvation), and others for common use(destruction) ? Romans 9. - I agree God is merciful for allowing anyone into Heaven. But this story still leaves some questions

Adam and Eve/Satan
4 - Adam/Eve were given the free will to rebel or not rebel. However, if God predestined salvation sovereignly then wouldn't he be responsible for Sin, Because Eve would have been created to rebel and eat the fruit? Or even, If God predetermines salvation (chooses an elect), then Wouldn't Satan be created to rebel, if we use this logic.

 

[Goodbook]

Oh gosh this is like gibberish to me.
I thought you were talking bout politics.

All i know is God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble. We can humble ourselves and repent. We have free will to do this. God cant make us do anything without us agreeing with Him. Because he loves us and we are not robots.

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

Not gibberish at all!

I thought this topic would have created more attention with some other Calvinists here.

See it can go both ways, either

a) Since, We are dead in our sins/slaves to sin/spiritually dead, we cannot come to Christ without the work of the Holy Spirit, and him converting us and giving us the Faith to believe in him first, because even faith is a gift. The following verses support Calvinist/Unconditional election
i) John 6:44 - No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them.
ii) Ephesians 2:5 - made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions by grace you been saved.
iii) Romans 6:20 - When you were slaves to sin...
or
b) We are not dead, but bend towards sin and are able to accept Christ, which at that time he regenerates and converts us once we believe.

 

[Goodbook]

Well yea it can go both ways cos we have free will. Its kinda both, God drawing us, we accepting.
I think all of us need to have at least heard the gospel first to become a christian, you arent one automatically when you are born, you become one when you are born again.

Are you just asking trying to stir up discussion or genuinely confused about it?

 

[98cwitr]

The logic breaks down at 2c. Go read Romans 9 very carefully, see that this is addressed.

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

The logic breaks down at 2c. Go read Romans 9 very carefully, see that this is addressed.

I agree Romans 9 does go through this and answer all the questions I posted above. Particularly these passages:

a) Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls. Romans 9:11-12
b) It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. Romans 9:16

But then what about Eve and Satan? - Did God create them to Rebel?
a) Satan was created to rebel, if we use the logic that God chooses an elect.
b) Eve did have free will and was not under a curse, unlike us born into sin with tenancy to sin. She must have been created to rebel, or even, why did God put the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden?

I am using TULIP to come to these conclusions. Because if God has an elect, and others were created for destruction, just as some angels were, why create something meant for destruction?
a) Matthew 25:41 - Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
b) This was before the fall so you can't blame sinful nature on this.

I think It might be better to start a new thread on Satan and Eve prior to the fall, because I don't question Unconditional Election as much, just want to understand how these fit into the logic using TULIP

 

[98cwitr]

I understand it this way: God put the Tree of Knowledge in the garden knowing that Adam and Eve would eat from it...He has eternally known this, and chose to create the Tree and chose to create Adam and Eve even under this foreknowledge. I don't really find free will fitting into this scene at all, and the scene is from a divine perspective, and not a fallible human one. Maybe free will is nothing more than a perception from the human perspective?

God's Sovereignty over creation trumps all notion of free will in the libertarian sense.

 

[Goodbook]

free will is just the ability to choose, to say yes and no.
God Himself gave humans the ability. He did not create a bunch of people to say yes, and another bunch of people to say no.

Don't know what's so hard to understand about that.

 

[Goodbook]

As not a calvinist and the only place I use tulips is in my garden, I won't respond further to this thread. Just seems like you digging yourself into a hole here.

 

[twin1954]

Hello All,

I am a Baptist, I would consider myself a Calvinist. I am having a difficult time accepting unconditional election, after having a debate with someone, and also after doing some research. I have the following 4 points I am trying to see how they fit in with unconditional election, and the view I hold of being dead in your sins, unable to come to Christ without effectual calling.

Jesus Healing People By Their Faith
1 - If Jesus healed people based on their faith, would it be safe to say that faith was given to them? Jesus does however say by your faith you will be healed. BUT Faith is a gift. - It seems both are right, why would he ask if they believe, if he is the one who gives the faith. - Kind of like, me asking you to give me my cellphone that's in my pocket, but you can't give it to me unless I take it out my pocket and give it to you.

Unconditional Election
2- Unconditional election requires that:
a) God sovereignly predetermines both election and reprobation.
b) If God sovereignly appointed man to reprobation and creates him anyway, then man cannot help but be reprobate and therefore is not responsible for being reprobate.
c) Since man is not responsible for being reprobate, man cannot be blamed for being reprobate.
d) If man cannot be blamed for being reprobate, he cannot be justly condemned.
e) Since some men are reprobate and justly condemned, unconditional election is false?
f) I believe people are dead in their sins, and can not come to Christ without God opening their hearts, giving the individual the initial faith to believe, but then that would mean he also doesn't give faith to others? - Unless you take the position of conditional election.

God Likened unto a King
3 - If we liken God unto a King, who has thousands of people imprisoned in a dungeon, for another man crime. (original sin) And if He declares that:
a) I want all of you to be set free
b) I have love and mercy for you all
c) I love you so much I have sent my son to pay the penalty for your crimes
d) Whosoever chooses to do so may leave the prison cells and go free
e) The cells are locked, and only the King has the keys (People dead in their sins, and cannot come to Christ left alone)
f) So regardless of what you say or do, I will unconditionally open a few doors and let some of you go.
g) If God has to give the initial faith to believe, because we are dead in our sins, then that would seem to God creates some for special purposes (salvation), and others for common use(destruction) ? Romans 9. - I agree God is merciful for allowing anyone into Heaven. But this story still leaves some questions

Adam and Eve/Satan
4 - Adam/Eve were given the free will to rebel or not rebel. However, if God predestined salvation sovereignly then wouldn't he be responsible for Sin, Because Eve would have been created to rebel and eat the fruit? Or even, If God predetermines salvation (chooses an elect), then Wouldn't Satan be created to rebel, if we use this logic.

I will try to help you all that I can. But before I do I want to read through what you have written carefully so that I might grasp where you are having trouble. Please be patient. I am your servant in Christ, twin.

 

[twin1954]

Hello All,

I am a Baptist, I would consider myself a Calvinist. I am having a difficult time accepting unconditional election, after having a debate with someone, and also after doing some research. I have the following 4 points I am trying to see how they fit in with unconditional election, and the view I hold of being dead in your sins, unable to come to Christ without effectual calling.

First I want to let you know that I too am a Baptist. Second it seems as though you have been discouraged by debate and possibly because you don't quite understand God's sovereign election. You are approaching election from the wrong point of view actually. God's sovereign election is His electing love. We all, elect and reprobate alike, deserve nothing from Him but wrath, anger and eternal damnation. The elect are no different than the reprobate. But He, because He has wrapped up His glory in sovereign mercy, Ex. 33:18-19, set His wondrous love on some of Adam's fallen race. He chose them not because He foresaw something in them but because it was His will to do so. He set them apart as His own and gave them to the Son as His people. The Son, again in wondrous love and mercy, agreed to do all that was necessary to save them. Election is about the love of God not just about His sovereignty. So when you think on or read in the Scriptures about God's election understand it is electing love and mercy. He set His heart on those whom He has chosen.

Jesus Healing People By Their Faith

1 - If Jesus healed people based on their faith, would it be safe to say that faith was given to them? Jesus does however say by your faith you will be healed. BUT Faith is a gift. - It seems both are right, why would he ask if they believe, if he is the one who gives the faith. - Kind of like, me asking you to give me my cellphone that's in my pocket, but you can't give it to me unless I take it out my pocket and give it to you.

How is it that God gives us faith? Does He hand it to us as in your example or does He give us a heart to believe? Of course He gives us a heart to believe. God doesn't believe for us we actually believe for ourselves after He has done a work in us and for us. Our faith is our own given by the grace of God thorough the quickening of the Spirit by the Gospel.

Also you will notice that many whom Jesus healed and who followed Him went back after they couldn't tae His sayings, John 6:60-61. But I want you to pay attention to what He says in verse 63.

(Joh 6:63) It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Many believed that He was a prophet and many saw His miracles and followed Him but few knew who He really was. They knew He had power and believed He was a man sent of God but when He didn't do or act as they thought He should as the King of Israel they later cried crucify Him.

Unconditional Election

2- Unconditional election requires that:
a) God sovereignly predetermines both election and reprobation.
b) If God sovereignly appointed man to reprobation and creates him anyway, then man cannot help but be reprobate and therefore is not responsible for being reprobate.
c) Since man is not responsible for being reprobate, man cannot be blamed for being reprobate.
d) If man cannot be blamed for being reprobate, he cannot be justly condemned.
e) Since some men are reprobate and justly condemned, unconditional election is false?
f) I believe people are dead in their sins, and can not come to Christ without God opening their hearts, giving the individual the initial faith to believe, but then that would mean he also doesn't give faith to others? - Unless you take the position of conditional election.

Does God actually have to take an active part in reprobation? Could it not be just as true that we are all reprobate by nature but God chose some and leaves the rest to their own will and way? That is exactly what I believe is the truth. I have no problem if God actually actively chose some to reprobation for He is God and can do whatever He pleases but I do not believe that is the case. He simply left those He didn't choose in sovereign love to what they not only deserve but what they desire. He left them in their natural state of sin and death and darkness.

Now man is responsible for his reprobation for at least two reasons: He is responsible to God as his Creator and subject to His law and conditions; he willingly drinks iniquity like water and seeks sin and delights in it. Man fell in Adam and we are all under the rule of death because of his sin but we all are born sinners as well. There is no such thing as an innocent child. We come forth from the womb speaking lies, Psa. 58:3 .

Now consider this as well, what if Adam had not sinned? There would have been no need for Christ and no need for mercy. God, as I pointed out before, has wrapped up His glory in His sovereign mercy and love. Christ is the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world and He must have the preeminence, Col. 1:18. We know that the angels have no knowledge of the mercy of God except as they see it in His chosen bride the church, Eph. 3:10-11. God purposed that in Christ the wondrous love, mercy and grace that He sheds on us by Christ shall manifest to the praise of His glory for eternity.

His just wrath and damnation of the reprobate will certainly be to His glory as well but not like His love and mercy will. What a great wonder that He would set His heart of love and mercy on us who are worthy of all that Hell is and more.

God Likened unto a King

3 - If we liken God unto a King, who has thousands of people imprisoned in a dungeon, for another man crime. (original sin) And if He declares that:
a) I want all of you to be set free
b) I have love and mercy for you all
c) I love you so much I have sent my son to pay the penalty for your crimes
d) Whosoever chooses to do so may leave the prison cells and go free
e) The cells are locked, and only the King has the keys (People dead in their sins, and cannot come to Christ left alone)
f) So regardless of what you say or do, I will unconditionally open a few doors and let some of you go.
g) If God has to give the initial faith to believe, because we are dead in our sins, then that would seem to God creates some for special purposes (salvation), and others for common use(destruction) ? Romans 9. - I agree God is merciful for allowing anyone into Heaven. But this story still leaves some questions

You must understand the God's electing love keeps out no one who wants in. He freely declares in the Gospel that all who believe and trust Christ are saved. The problem isn't with the King or with the Gospel message it is with man who does not want it nor sees any beauty in it. It isn't election that keeps people from believing it is their depraved natures. They love their sin and love to call God a liar, 1John 5:10. The door is open to all who want it.

Adam and Eve/Satan

4 - Adam/Eve were given the free will to rebel or not rebel. However, if God predestined salvation sovereignly then wouldn't he be responsible for Sin, Because Eve would have been created to rebel and eat the fruit? Or even, If God predetermines salvation (chooses an elect), then Wouldn't Satan be created to rebel, if we use this logic.

God purposed the Fall of man and the rebellion of Satan for His own glory and the good of His people but He did not make it happen in the way that you may think. He controls all things and every influence and circumstance in order that we do exactly as He has purposed and exactly as we want to do. Remember Adam wasn't deceived, 1Tim.2:14. Adam knew that the penalty for eating was death and knew that Eve must die. He chose to die with her and plunged us all into death and sin. He did exactly as God had purposed for him to do and exactly as he desired to do.

I hope that helps you understand a little better, twin.

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

First I want to let you know that I too am a Baptist. Second it seems as though you have been discouraged by debate and possibly because you don't quite understand God's sovereign election. You are approaching election from the wrong point of view actually. God's sovereign election is His electing love. We all, elect and reprobate alike, deserve nothing from Him but wrath, anger and eternal damnation. The elect are no different than the reprobate. But He, because He has wrapped up His glory in sovereign mercy, Ex. 33:18-19, set His wondrous love on some of Adam's fallen race. He chose them not because He foresaw something in them but because it was His will to do so. He set them apart as His own and gave them to the Son as His people. The Son, again in wondrous love and mercy, agreed to do all that was necessary to save them. Election is about the love of God not just about His sovereignty. So when you think on or read in the Scriptures about God's election understand it is electing love and mercy. He set His heart on those whom He has chosen.

Jesus Healing People By Their Faith
How is it that God gives us faith? Does He hand it to us as in your example or does He give us a heart to believe? Of course He gives us a heart to believe. God doesn't believe for us we actually believe for ourselves after He has done a work in us and for us. Our faith is our own given by the grace of God thorough the quickening of the Spirit by the Gospel.

Also you will notice that many whom Jesus healed and who followed Him went back after they couldn't tae His sayings, John 6:60-61. But I want you to pay attention to what He says in verse 63.

(Joh 6:63) It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Many believed that He was a prophet and many saw His miracles and followed Him but few knew who He really was. They knew He had power and believed He was a man sent of God but when He didn't do or act as they thought He should as the King of Israel they later cried crucify Him.


Does God actually have to take an active part in reprobation? Could it not be just as true that we are all reprobate by nature but God chose some and leaves the rest to their own will and way? That is exactly what I believe is the truth. I have no problem if God actually actively chose some to reprobation for He is God and can do whatever He pleases but I do not believe that is the case. He simply left those He didn't choose in sovereign love to what they not only deserve but what they desire. He left them in their natural state of sin and death and darkness.

Now man is responsible for his reprobation for at least two reasons: He is responsible to God as his Creator and subject to His law and conditions; he willingly drinks iniquity like water and seeks sin and delights in it. Man fell in Adam and we are all under the rule of death because of his sin but we all are born sinners as well. There is no such thing as an innocent child. We come forth from the womb speaking lies, Psa. 58:3 .

Now consider this as well, what if Adam had not sinned? There would have been no need for Christ and no need for mercy. God, as I pointed out before, has wrapped up His glory in His sovereign mercy and love. Christ is the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world and He must have the preeminence, Col. 1:18. We know that the angels have no knowledge of the mercy of God except as they see it in His chosen bride the church, Eph. 3:10-11. God purposed that in Christ the wondrous love, mercy and grace that He sheds on us by Christ shall manifest to the praise of His glory for eternity.

His just wrath and damnation of the reprobate will certainly be to His glory as well but not like His love and mercy will. What a great wonder that He would set His heart of love and mercy on us who are worthy of all that Hell is and more.

You must understand the God's electing love keeps out no one who wants in. He freely declares in the Gospel that all who believe and trust Christ are saved. The problem isn't with the King or with the Gospel message it is with man who does not want it nor sees any beauty in it. It isn't election that keeps people from believing it is their depraved natures. They love their sin and love to call God a liar, 1John 5:10. The door is open to all who want it.

God purposed the Fall of man and the rebellion of Satan for His own glory and the good of His people but He did not make it happen in the way that you may think. He controls all things and every influence and circumstance in order that we do exactly as He has purposed and exactly as we want to do. Remember Adam wasn't deceived, 1Tim.2:14. Adam knew that the penalty for eating was death and knew that Eve must die. He chose to die with her and plunged us all into death and sin. He did exactly as God had purposed for him to do and exactly as he desired to do.

I hope that helps you understand a little better, twin.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wow, you explained everything so detailed and very easy to understand with the perfect scriptures chosen, so I was able to go back and cross reference. These are the things I picked up:

a)Regarding Faith - Since God regenerated our heart, now we are able to believe in him. I thought it was God giving us the faith. But the faith is our own, once God changes our hearts through the work of the Holy Spirit. Ezekiel 36:25-28,32 also helps show that

b)Regarding election - its His Will - He chose an elect not because He foresaw something in them but because it was His will to do so, to accomplish his end goal/Will.

c) With regards to the Reprobate/Election - You must understand the God's electing love keeps out no one who wants in. It isn't election that keeps people from believing, it is their depraved natures. The door is open to all who want it.

d) Regarding fall of Satan, - God purposed the Fall of man and the rebellion of Satan for His own glory and the good of His people. He controls all things and every influence and circumstance in order that we do exactly as He has purposed and exactly as we want to do.

Thank you very much for your time and help!

So regarding Lucifer and God's Will - Does this seem to be accurate?
a) Lucifer did exactly what he wanted, His pride led him to and rebel, he had the free will to do so.
b) Just like Joseph and his brothers. Genesis 50:20 - You meant evil against me, but God meant it for good. And Romans 8:28 - And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. - So these means (Fall of Mankind/Lucifer Rebelling) were used to accomplish God ultimate goal/end.
c) Mankind is fallen, but has the freewill to accept or reject God, but God has to change the heart, and do the initial work, at that point a person can believe/have faith themselves once the heart is changed. God's electing love keeps out no one who wants in.
d) God was somehow Glorified, and it was his Will to create Satan, have him and 1/3 of the angels rebel, create mankind and have entire mankind fall, and ultimately take sin upon himself, by sending the Son to redeem mankind, and restore the relationship between mankind with Himself.
e) God's end goal or Will was ultimately accomplished. While his creation has free will to decide, he is Sovereign at the same time.

 

[twin1954]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wow, you explained everything so detailed and very easy to understand with the perfect scriptures chosen, so I was able to go back and cross reference. These are the things I picked up:

a)Regarding Faith - Since God regenerated our heart, now we are able to believe in him. I thought it was God giving us the faith. But the faith is our own, once God changes our hearts through the work of the Holy Spirit. Ezekiel 36:25-28,32 also helps show that

b)Regarding election - its His Will - He chose an elect not because He foresaw something in them but because it was His will to do so, to accomplish his end goal/Will.

c) With regards to the Reprobate/Election - You must understand the God's electing love keeps out no one who wants in. It isn't election that keeps people from believing, it is their depraved natures. The door is open to all who want it.

d) Regarding fall of Satan, - God purposed the Fall of man and the rebellion of Satan for His own glory and the good of His people. He controls all things and every influence and circumstance in order that we do exactly as He has purposed and exactly as we want to do.

Thank you very much for your time and help!

So regarding Lucifer and God's Will - Does this seem to be accurate?
a) Lucifer did exactly what he wanted, His pride led him to and rebel, he had the free will to do so.
b) Just like Joseph and his brothers. Genesis 50:20 - You meant evil against me, but God meant it for good. And Romans 8:28 - And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. - So these means (Fall of Mankind/Lucifer Rebelling) were used to accomplish God ultimate goal/end.
c) Mankind is fallen, but has the freewill to accept or reject God, but God has to change the heart, and do the initial work, at that point a person can believe/have faith themselves once the heart is changed. God's electing love keeps out no one who wants in.
d) God was somehow Glorified, and it was his Will to create Satan, have him and 1/3 of the angels rebel, create mankind and have entire mankind fall, and ultimately take sin upon himself, by sending the Son to redeem mankind, and restore the relationship between mankind with Himself.
e) God's end goal or Will was ultimately accomplished. While his creation has free will to decide, he is Sovereign at the same time.

Man has a will but I wouldn't call it free. Man's will is bound by his nature. Man's nature, in Adam, is sin and he can make choices but his choice is always sin. When we are born from above and given a new nature we are no longer under the bondage of our sinful natures we have been freed from that death and now have the ability to willing choose Christ and His way. Psa. 110:3 Along with a new nature He gives us a new will that desires to follow Him and to be without sin.
Until the Lord did a work of sovereign grace for me and in me I didn't want anything to do with Christ or His saving grace. I was taken to church as a young boy and heard about grace and salvation but had no interest in it at all. One day the Lord brought me to the end of my rope and made me fall at His feet begging mercy because my sin was a load He had put on my heart. I knew the He could forgive my sin if He would so my hope lay in the fact that He would. He did of course and I found out that He had done so before He even spoke this world into existence. I was one of His sheep and He sought me and stopped me in my mad rush to Hell. He plucked me from the fire as a man picks up a branch from the fire. He gave me life and faith in Christ by His Gospel, which is the power of God to all the believe, and set me on the rock Christ Jesus. I did nothing in all this but was a recipient of His marvelous mercy, love and grace. He did all the work including making me willing by giving me life in Christ at His appointed time.

The rest I think you have grasped fairly well.

There are many passages of the Scriptures that I would love to discuss with you as you find time. Election isn't salvation it is unto salvation.

(2Th 2:13) But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

(2Th 2:14) Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.


You can PM me if you would rather keep it private or just let me know when you want to consider any portion of the Scriptures. I am and will remain your servant in Christ, twin.

 

[Job8]

I am a Baptist, I would consider myself a Calvinist. I am having a difficult time accepting unconditional election,..

Consider that a very positive development. You won't find unconditional election in Scripture as taught by TULIP.

Those who believe (believers) are "elect according to foreknowledge" but for what purpose? To be saved or to be perfected morally, spiritually, and physically? Not to be saved but "to be conformed to the image of [God's] Son" (Rom 8:29). So here is what Scripture really teaches (Rom 8:29,30):

FOREKNOWLEDGE--->CALLING--->JUSTIFICATION--->SANCTIFICATION--->GLORIFICATION---->PERFECTION (CONFORMED TO THE IMAGE OF HIS SON)

 

[twin1954]

Consider that a very positive development. You won't find unconditional election in Scripture as taught by TULIP.

Those who believe (believers) are "elect according to foreknowledge" but for what purpose? To be saved or to be perfected morally, spiritually, and physically? Not to be saved but "to be conformed to the image of [God's] Son" (Rom 8:29). So here is what Scripture really teaches (Rom 8:29,30):

FOREKNOWLEDGE--->CALLING--->JUSTIFICATION--->SANCTIFICATION--->GLORIFICATION---->PERFECTION (CONFORMED TO THE IMAGE OF HIS SON)

Sorry but you mistake foreknowledge for foresight. That is not what the Scriptures teach. Election is not according to foresight for if it was then salvation would be because God saw something in you that He didn't see in others. That would make salvation depend on man according to something God saw Him do or in Him and that is works salvation pure and simple. I can give you many passages of Scripture if you so desire that do teach unconditional electing love just say the word. Of course you might be overwhelmed by the many passages.

Of course you have the cart before the horse in your order of salvation. So I must as you a simple question: What is it that makes the difference between you as a saved person and one who isn't?

 

[twin1954]

Andy, I hope that you will ignore for now the debate between Arminian false doctrine and Calvinism. I also hope that you will take the time to read something which I highly recommend. You can find it here: http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Sovereignty/index.htm

 

[Thunder Peel]

We have free will to choose or deny Christ but He knows in advance who will accept Him and who won't. Election is difficult to wrap our heads around (I'm still trying to figure it out myself) but I leave it in God's hands to decide how and when He draws people to Him. It's up to us to spread the Gospel and plant the seed.

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

Andy, I hope that you will ignore for now the debate between Arminian false doctrine and Calvinism. I also hope that you will take the time to read something which I highly recommend. You can find it here: http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Sovereignty/index.htm

Thank you for defending our correct view of Scriptures!

I am going to start viewing the material you provided, Thanks for all your help. I will send you a PM now

My Best
Andy

 

[farout]

Hello All,

I am a Baptist, I would consider myself a Calvinist. I am having a difficult time accepting unconditional election, after having a debate with someone, and also after doing some research. I have the following 4 points I am trying to see how they fit in with unconditional election, and the view I hold of being dead in your sins, unable to come to Christ without effectual calling.

Jesus Healing People By Their Faith
1 - If Jesus healed people based on their faith, would it be safe to say that faith was given to them? Jesus does however say by your faith you will be healed. BUT Faith is a gift. - It seems both are right, why would he ask if they believe, if he is the one who gives the faith. - Kind of like, me asking you to give me my cellphone that's in my pocket, but you can't give it to me unless I take it out my pocket and give it to you.

Unconditional Election
2- Unconditional election requires that:
a) God sovereignly predetermines both election and reprobation.
b) If God sovereignly appointed man to reprobation and creates him anyway, then man cannot help but be reprobate and therefore is not responsible for being reprobate.
c) Since man is not responsible for being reprobate, man cannot be blamed for being reprobate.
d) If man cannot be blamed for being reprobate, he cannot be justly condemned.
e) Since some men are reprobate and justly condemned, unconditional election is false?
f) I believe people are dead in their sins, and can not come to Christ without God opening their hearts, giving the individual the initial faith to believe, but then that would mean he also doesn't give faith to others? - Unless you take the position of conditional election.

God Likened unto a King
3 - If we liken God unto a King, who has thousands of people imprisoned in a dungeon, for another man crime. (original sin) And if He declares that:
a) I want all of you to be set free
b) I have love and mercy for you all
c) I love you so much I have sent my son to pay the penalty for your crimes
d) Whosoever chooses to do so may leave the prison cells and go free
e) The cells are locked, and only the King has the keys (People dead in their sins, and cannot come to Christ left alone)
f) So regardless of what you say or do, I will unconditionally open a few doors and let some of you go.
g) If God has to give the initial faith to believe, because we are dead in our sins, then that would seem to God creates some for special purposes (salvation), and others for common use(destruction) ? Romans 9. - I agree God is merciful for allowing anyone into Heaven. But this story still leaves some questions

Adam and Eve/Satan
4 - Adam/Eve were given the free will to rebel or not rebel. However, if God predestined salvation sovereignly then wouldn't he be responsible for Sin, Because Eve would have been created to rebel and eat the fruit? Or even, If God predetermines salvation (chooses an elect), then Wouldn't Satan be created to rebel, if we use this logic.

You don't have to mane what you believe do you. I see things about Calvinism that I totally agree with, and I do not agree with some things too. I do not get excited about election, I keep nominating people for Jesus to save and they keep getting elected! Neither side agrees with this. However this can become a distraction, and before you know it people you once thought were brother and sisters now they are distant because they are on the wrong side. Better keep in mind we are called to love one another.

 

[twin1954]

We have free will to choose or deny Christ but He knows in advance who will accept Him and who won't. Election is difficult to wrap our heads around (I'm still trying to figure it out myself) but I leave it in God's hands to decide how and when He draws people to Him. It's up to us to spread the Gospel and plant the seed.

So salvation is in the hands of men according to what God foresees that they do? Election isn't difficult at all once you understand that we all deserve nothing but the wrath of God and He, in sovereign mercy and love, chose to save some because it pleased Him to do so. The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation to them that believe and I am assured that there are some who will hear and believe not because I was good at my presentation but because the Spirit gives them Life and faith through the preaching of the Gospel. I preach the Gospel because I do wholeheartedly believe it is the power of God unto salvation to them that believe not what I say or do. It is all of God nothing of me.