Truth vs Fact.

[OldWiseGuy]

Usually there is little difference between truth and fact when closely examined. Here I present what I consider to be an example of the difference.

It is a fact that immigrants seek a better life in America because of problems in their native lands.

It is the truth that they should stay and work to solve those problems in their native lands.

Note that the truth statement contains a moral element.

Comments or other examples?

 

[RC1970]

What "truth" are you referring to that would suggest that they "should" stay.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

What "truth" are you referring to that would suggest that they "should" stay.

It's the right thing to do.

It's the same thing with those who grow plants for the drug trade.

It's a fact that they make more money.

It's the truth that they shouldn't do it.

See the moral component there?

 

[RC1970]

It's a fact that they make more money.
It's truth that they make more money.

It's a fact that they shouldn't do it.
It's truth that they shouldn't do it.

If fact = truth, then where's the distinction?

 

[Soyeong]

I agree that there are moral truths, but I don't see a good reason to limit truths to just statements about morality, not do I see a good reason to deny that there are moral facts.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I agree that there are moral truths, but I don't see a good reason to limit truths to just statements about morality, not do I see a good reason to deny that there are moral facts.

We have to cobble together a distinct meaning for each, otherwise why two different words. Usually truth is a conclusion reached after examining many facts. This conclusion often has legal or moral implications. A parent, or judge, is interested in the facts so that they can arrive at the truth.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

It's a fact that they make more money.
It's truth that they make more money.

It's a fact that they shouldn't do it.
It's truth that they shouldn't do it.

If fact = truth, then where's the distinction?

Sometimes it's hard to spot. It takes practice.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

...It is the truth that they should stay and work to solve those problems in their native lands.

Note that the truth statement contains a moral element.

Comments or other examples?

I think you're confusing truth with opinion - or perhaps you feel truth is a personal matter, and everyone has their own version. I can see what Richard Rorty meant by, "Truth is simply a compliment paid to sentences seen to be paying their way"; whatever passes the validation procedures of your culture or society (perhaps even your personal opinion).

Some moral relativism in there too; "let the powerless and oppressed sort it out for themselves". That needs some nifty footwork to sound like a moral truth...

 

[essentialsaltes]

I think you're confusing truth with opinion

I'd have to agree.

Fact: People with higher incomes have more disposable income than people with lower incomes.

Truth: People with higher incomes should be taxed at a higher rate than people with lower incomes (because their lives are not as greatly impacted by taxation).
Truth: People with higher incomes should be taxed at the same rate than people with lower incomes (because it's fair).
Truth: People with higher incomes should be taxed at a lower rate than people with lower incomes (so that they can invest in the economy, which will trickle down).

If we're talking about truth in a way that doesn't violate the meaning of the word, only one of those three truths can be true. If people had to pick which one was true, no doubt most people would pick the one they agree with. That's opinion, not truth.

(Besides, since there are no moral facts, all 'should' statements are opinions. (and therefore not true in any mind-independent fashion.))

 

[Chriliman]

Truth is infinite and timeless

Facts are finite and based on time

All facts will lead to an infinite timeless truth where facts are no longer relevant.

 

[Chany]

You are pretty much using two different words to mean the same thing. For example, I could say that there is a moral fact that illegal immigrants should stay and work to solve the problems in their native lands. What is the difference between this and a moral truth?

 

[Soyeong]

We have to cobble together a distinct meaning for each, otherwise why two different words. Usually truth is a conclusion reached after examining many facts. This conclusion often has legal or moral implications. A parent, or judge, is interested in the facts so that they can arrive at the truth.

Yay for synonyms.

 

[juvenissun]

Usually there is little difference between truth and fact when closely examined. Here I present what I consider to be an example of the difference.

It is a fact that immigrants seek a better life in America because of problems in their native lands.

It is the truth that they should stay and work to solve those problems in their native lands.

Note that the truth statement contains a moral element.
Comments or other examples?

Allow me to modify your example to show the difference:

It is a fact that (most) immigrants seek a better life in America.
It is the truth that they should work to solve (their own) problems.

Fact is easy to describe. It only needs to be scientifically accurate.
Truth needs a standard, and is very hard to describe. I don't think my version is good enough.

 

[juvenissun]

I'd have to agree.

Fact: People with higher incomes have more disposable income than people with lower incomes.

This is not a fact. There are many exceptions to this statement.

It should be modified to this:

Fact: People with higher incomes (usually) have more disposable income than people with lower incomes.

If possible, a % should be given to quantify the word "usually".
And the "higher" and the "lower" also need to be specified. For example: if they are 1000 and 900 then they won't fit the "fact".

 

[KCfromNC]

Usually there is little difference between truth and fact when closely examined. Here I present what I consider to be an example of the difference.

It is a fact that immigrants seek a better life in America because of problems in their native lands.

It is the truth that they should stay and work to solve those problems in their native lands.

Note that the truth statement contains a moral element.

Comments or other examples?

This fits one of the uses of the word "truth" I've seen before. That is, a statement of opinion that is only backed up by asserting it is the truth. Unfortunately, labeling an opinion as truth doesn't magically make it true.

 

[essentialsaltes]

It should be modified to this:

Fact: People with higher incomes (usually) have more disposable income than people with lower incomes.

Fine. Would you like to address my point about 'truth' as defined by the OP?

 

[juvenissun]

Truth: People with higher incomes should be taxed at a higher rate than people with lower incomes (because their lives are not as greatly impacted by taxation).
Truth: People with higher incomes should be taxed at the same rate than people with lower incomes (because it's fair).
Truth: People with higher incomes should be taxed at a lower rate than people with lower incomes (so that they can invest in the economy, which will trickle down).

I always think the truth must be linked to an unchallenged authority. Without that authority, any so-called truth is debatable. For example, for German people in WWII, what Hitler said IS the truth. And for Chinese people in 1960's, whatever Chairman Mao said IS the truth.

In that sense, the concept of "God is the Truth" or "What the Bible says is the truth" is fully justified for all Christians. And there is no truth for humanist, because to them, human is god and humans are equal. "Thou shalt not kill (murder)" may not be a truth for humanists.

 

[Dialogist]

Usually there is little difference between truth and fact when closely examined. Here I present what I consider to be an example of the difference.

It is a fact that immigrants seek a better life in America because of problems in their native lands.

It is the truth that they should stay and work to solve those problems in their native lands.

Note that the truth statement contains a moral element.

Comments or other examples?

In philosophical logic, "truth" has no moral element. It is simply one of the two values a statement can assume (the other being "false").

A statement is a particular kind of sentence which is either true or false.

I would say that a fact is a true statement, but I don't know if this is its formal definition in philosophical logic.

An argument comprises a series of premises which the arguer maintains to be true and one or more conclusions that the arguer claims follow from the premises.

It seems to me that the examples you provide taken together comprise the following arguments (with one premise being an implied conditional statement):

Argument 1:
(P1) There are problems in immigrants' native land
(C1) Therefore, immigrants seek a better life in America

Argument 2:
(P2) Immigrants whose native lands have problems leave their native lands to seek a better life in America
(P3) If immigrants stayed in their native lands, then they would solve their native land's problems [IMPLIED]
(C2) Therefore, immigrants' native lands still have problems

For an argument to be valid, the conclusion must necessarily follow from the premise(s), regardless of whether the premises are actually true or not.

For an argument to be sound, the argument must be valid, and the premises must be true.

I would say that Argument 1 is not valid. That an immigrant seeks a better life in America is not necessarily because there are problems in the immigrant's country. For example, the potential immigrant's country may have no problems, but due to the scale of its economy the potential immigrant is only a millionaire, whereas he or she could become a billionaire if he or she immigrated to and worked in the United States.

I would say that Argument 2 is not sound. I think the conclusion follows from the premises, but (P3) is not necessarily true.

 

[bhsmte]

It's the right thing to do.

It's the same thing with those who grow plants for the drug trade.

It's a fact that they make more money.

It's the truth that they shouldn't do it.

See the moral component there?

It is the right thing to do according to whom?

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Allow me to modify your example to show the difference:

It is a fact that (most) immigrants seek a better life in America.
It is the truth that they should work to solve (their own) problems.

One could also say that it is the truth that they have worked to solve their own problems by seeking a better life in America...