Toddlers and Guns

[Quid est Veritas?]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-36270215

Apparently shootings by toddlers of themselves and others are on the rise in the US. They find guns in drawers and under carseats, easily accessable.

What I really find shocking though is that only 28 states can prosecute the gun owner if a child finds such a gun and hurts themselves or others.

Also, if you have children or are babysitting, its common sense to lock away the bleach, bugspray or oven cleaner and keep them away from knives and so forth, but people are keeping loaded guns lying around everywhere? Do we really need to tell people that to baby proof their house involves locking away their guns?

 

[Nithavela]

I think that part of the problem is that many US citizens do not see weapons as an object of danger, but rather as an object that brings them safety. I guess that it can be hard to see something as both, and so they don't think about the danger part of the object when choosing the storage. An example would be the loaded gun hidden under the pillow or in the nightstand. It's meant to be easily accessible to ward off danger (like a burglar at night), but people don't think about it being easily accessible to bring danger, too.

The NRA of course reinforces this way of thinking.

 

[Mudinyeri]

I can't find stats for 2015 yet but in 2014, the top ten causes of accidental death among children ages 1-4 (toddler-ish), based on data from the CDC, were as follows:

1. Unintentional Drowning: 388
2. Unintentional Motor Vehicle/Traffic Accident: 293
3. Homicide, Unspecified: 149 (Note that this is homicide, not accidental shooting)
4. Unintentional Suffocation: 120
5. Unintentional Fire/Burn: 117
6. Unintentional Pedestrian, Other Accident: 107
7. Homicide, Other: 73 (Again, homicide, not accidental shooting)
8. Homicide, Firearm: 47 (Homicide, not accidental)
9. Unintentional Struck By/Against: 38
10. Unintentional Natural/Environment: 35

The article is a hit piece based on "estimates" (mis-information) from anti-gun groups like the Brady Campaign.

As a firearms instructor, I am 100% in agreement that firearms should be secured at all times. As far as criminal prosecution goes, my opinion is that it should be similar to criminal prosecution for failures to prevent any of the top ten causes of accidental death among toddlers where reasonable precautions would likely have prevented death.

 

[cow451]

Do we really need to tell people that to baby proof their house involves locking away their guns?

Apparently so.

 

[cow451]

As a firearms instructor, I am 100% in agreement that firearms should be secured at all times. As far as criminal prosecution goes, my opinion is that it should be similar to criminal prosecution for failures to prevent any of the top ten causes of accidental death among toddlers where reasonable precautions would likely have prevented death.

Although I note your attempt to minimize the problem, I agree with your assertion that frequently gunowners are not held accountable for what happens with the weapons they own.

 

[Mudinyeri]

Apparently so.

Yup. And we need to put safety lids on pill bottles and tell people not to text and drive and ....

 

[Mudinyeri]

Although I note your attempt to minimize the problem, I agree with your assertion that frequently gunowners are not held accountable for what happens with the weapons they own.

My attempt was to insert some actual facts, truth and accuracy into the discussion. Your suggestion that I was attempting to minimize the problem is nothing more than intellectual dishonesty.

We really don't hold anyone accountable any more, including people who use made-up estimates in published articles.

 

[cow451]

My attempt was to insert some actual facts, truth and accuracy into the discussion. Your suggestion that I was attempting to minimize the problem is nothing more than intellectual dishonesty.

You will recall that the NRA vehemently opposes and uses Congressional resources (sympathetic legislators) to keep real data about gun violence out of the discussion. The CDC is expressly forbidden studying this matter as a public health issue so it can, as you do, that no "reliable data" is available. The source cited in the OP comes from a group that has to cull data from many sources, thanks to the NRA and it's supporters. So, do not whine about "intellectual dishonesty" unless you do so against the NRA and it's like-minded advocacy groups.

 

[iluvatar5150]

I can't find stats for 2015 yet but in 2014, the top ten causes of accidental death among children ages 1-4 (toddler-ish), based on data from the CDC, were as follows:

3. Homicide, Unspecified: 149 (Note that this is homicide, not accidental shooting)
7. Homicide, Other: 73 (Again, homicide, not accidental shooting)
8. Homicide, Firearm: 47 (Homicide, not accidental)

Accidental shootings are a subset of homicides. The word "homicide" means that the death was caused by a human action. It doesn't say anything about the intent or criminal culpability of those actions.

Additionally, the article isn't only about shooting deaths of children; it's also about shooting deaths caused by children, which aren't described by your stats.

The article is a hit piece based on "estimates" (mis-information) from anti-gun groups like the Brady Campaign.

Yeah, not quite. It also cited research done by the Washington Post and research published in two different medical journals.

 

[Mudinyeri]

You will recall that the NRA vehemently opposes and uses Congressional resources (sympathetic legislators) to keep real data about gun violence out of the discussion. The CDC is expressly forbidden studying this matter as a public health issue so it can, as you do, that no "reliable data" is available. The source cited in the OP comes from a group that has to cull data from many sources, thanks to the NRA and it's supporters. So, do not whine about "intellectual dishonesty" unless you do so against the NRA and it's like-minded advocacy groups.

Interesting you should bring up the NRA. They have developed and underwritten the largest child gun safety education program on the face of the planet - the Eddie Eagle Gunsafe Program.

The CDC annually produces statistics related to firearms related incidents. There is, and has been, no restriction on this. The CDC's data on firearms injuries and deaths is as reliable as it gets.

 

[Mudinyeri]

Accidental shootings are a subset of homicides. The word "homicide" means that the death was caused by a human action. It doesn't say anything about the intent or criminal culpability of those actions.

Additionally, the article isn't only about shooting deaths of children; it's also about shooting deaths caused by children, which aren't described by your stats.



Yeah, not quite. It also cited research done by the Washington Post and research published in two different medical journals.

I thought this was about "shootings by toddlers of themselves." A self-injury or death is not a homicide.

Homicide: the deliberate and unlawful killing of one person by another

 

[Nithavela]

Yup. And we need to put safety lids on pill bottles and tell people not to text and drive and ....

Nice to see that we agree on the fact that sometimes, a society as a whole has to regulate the actions of a single person for his or her own good. (Like forcing people to fasten a seatbelt).

Interesting you should bring up the NRA. They have developed and underwritten the largest child gun safety education program on the face of the planet - the Eddie Eagle Gunsafe Program.

Do you have any evidence that this gun safety education program actually produces results? Just because it's large doesn't mean that it works.

 

[Mudinyeri]

Do you have any evidence that this gun safety education program actually produces results? Just because it's large doesn't mean that it works.

Like most things, it is difficult to prove direct causation. However, according to National Safety Council data, unintentional firearm-related fatalities have decreased by 58% over the last two decades and have been steadily decreasing since record-keeping began in 1903.

Nevertheless, my point was actually in contradiction to the characterization of the NRA, and its members, as an uncaring on the subject of accidental shootings. The NRA has its flaws, without a doubt, but they also do considerable good. As a lifetime member, I spend countless (volunteer) hours teaching firearm safety every year and spend a fair amount of my own money to support these free classes.

 

[Nithavela]

Like most things, it is difficult to prove direct causation. However, according to National Safety Council data, unintentional firearm-related fatalities have decreased by 58% over the last two decades and have been steadily decreasing since record-keeping began in 1903.

Nevertheless, my point was actually in contradiction to the characterization of the NRA, and its members, as an uncaring on the subject of accidental shootings. The NRA has its flaws, without a doubt, but they also do considerable good. As a lifetime member, I spend countless (volunteer) hours teaching firearm safety every year and spend a fair amount of my own money to support these free classes.

If these classes don't actually have a positive effect, they are more of a fig leaf than anything else.

 

[Mudinyeri]

If these classes don't actually have a positive effect, they are more of a fig leaf than anything else.

What is your point? If dogs were cats, they would purr.

 

[Nithavela]

What is your point? If dogs were cats, they would purr.

You have not actually shown that this program has a positive effect. Until you can do so, it's hard to accept as evidence for the supposed good deeds that the NRA is doing. Your words do not follow, because we don't know if the animal in question is a cat or a dog.

 

[Mudinyeri]

You have not actually shown that this program has a positive effect. Until you can do so, it's hard to accept as evidence for the supposed good deeds that the NRA is doing. Your words do not follow, because we don't know if the animal in question is a cat or a dog.

An you haven't shown that it doesn't.

What I have shown is that unintentional firearm-related deaths have been on a steep decline for the last 20 years and a steady decline since 1903. The Eddie Eagle program was launched in 1988. It would be impossible to prove a direct causation but there certainly seems to be a correlation.

Do you have stronger evidence to suggest that the Eddie Eagle program is an evil plot by the NRA to place a fig leaf over the private parts of their hidden agenda to get children to kill themselves?

May I suggest this forum: http://www.christianforums.com/forums/conspiracy-theories.1225/

 

[Nithavela]

An you haven't shown that it doesn't.

What I have shown is that unintentional firearm-related deaths have been on a steep decline for the last 20 years and a steady decline since 1903. The Eddie Eagle program was launched in 1988. It would be impossible to prove a direct causation but there certainly seems to be a correlation.

Do you have stronger evidence to suggest that the Eddie Eagle program is an evil plot by the NRA to place a fig leaf over the private parts of their hidden agenda to get children to kill themselves?

May I suggest this forum: http://www.christianforums.com/forums/conspiracy-theories.1225/

You make the claim, you provide the evidence that the claim is true. That's how it's done.

The NRA is a wealthy organisation. It strikes me as odd that they can't produce any clear evidence to the success of their program.

 

[Mudinyeri]

You make the claim, you provide the evidence that the claim is true. That's how it's done.

The NRA is a wealthy organisation. It strikes me as odd that they can't produce any clear evidence to the success of their program.

You've suggested that the claim is not true - after being presented with evidence that it is. Now, it's your turn to present evidence to the contrary. That's how it's done. This is not a criminal proceeding where the prosecution must prove beyond a reasonable doubt the guilt of the defendant. If it was, you would have to prove the guilt of the NRA since you are accusing them of nefarious activity.

And, since you asked: One study published in the Journal of Emergency Nursing Online (October 2001) named the Eddie Eagle GunSafe® program the best of 80 gun accident prevention programs evaluated. Beyond that, the effectiveness of the Program is evident in several ways. First, fatal firearms accidents in the Eddie Eagle age group have been reduced by more than 80 percent since the program’s nationwide launch, according to the National Center for Health Statistics. NRA feels that gun accident prevention programs such as Eddie Eagle are a significant factor in that decline. Second, we often receive letters from parents whose children have encountered guns in unsupervised situations and avoided an accident by doing exactly what Eddie Eagle had taught them: "STOP! Don't touch. Run away. Tell a grown-up.” Third, the Program has been honored or endorsed by groups such as the National Sheriffs’ Association, the U.S. Department of Justice (through the Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention), and the Association of American Educators. The Program also received bipartisan support from 26 state governors, as well as resolutions from 23 state legislatures, recommending the use of the Eddie Eagle Program. Finally, the fact that 26,000 school teachers and law enforcement officers have taught the Program to over 28 million children verifies the popularity of the Program with those who deal with child safety issues every day.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Get ready for "That's not good enough"......