Today Not Then, Now Not Nostalgia

[Spade48d]

Since you are new I`ll inform you that both sides of this debate regularly engage in condescenion and put on aires of superiorty while accusing the other of being unscriptural and illogical. Plenty of testostorone to go around but as of a truth from my observations, the Calvinists have generally been the ones more prone to play the victim...

Hello Oye11,

Thanks for the "heads up".

Are you saying that mud slinging, name calling, and other forms of character assassination are, more or less, acceptable forms of behavior, at least on this forum.

Further I infer that these are well-intentioned pseudo attacks to bolster interesting postings as well as establish and strengthen male cyber bonding. Sort of like greeting your best friend by punching him in the arm and saying "how ya doin' dung face. "

So the status quo I should expect is something like boys will be boys. Brotherly loving kindness, patience and understanding, notwithstanding?? I am obviously reading these posts a little too seriously.

Thanks for bringing this to my attention. I would have continued to think that this was real animosity being spread.

Perhaps I need to meditate and reflect on the doctrine of Christ a lot more. A reflective dose of what the term agape means in 1Cor13 should do me a world of good.

Thanks again
spade

 

[Oye11]

Hello Oye11,

Thanks for the "heads up".

Are you saying that mud slinging, name calling, and other forms of character assassination are, more or less, acceptable forms of behavior, at least on this forum.

Further I infer that these are well-intentioned pseudo attacks to bolster interesting postings as well as establish and strengthen male cyber bonding. Sort of like greeting your best friend by punching him in the arm and saying "how ya doin' dung face. "

So the status quo I should expect is something like boys will be boys. Brotherly loving kindness, patience and understanding, notwithstanding?? I am obviously reading these posts a little too seriously.

Thanks for bringing this to my attention. I would have continued to think that this was real animosity being spread.

Perhaps I need to meditate and reflect on the doctrine of Christ a lot more. A reflective dose of what the term agape means in 1Cor13 should do me a world of good.

Thanks again
spade

I`m not sure what psycho-analytical spin I`d put on it Spade. But as one who has discussed a variety of topics on the internet, religion, sports, politics, etc., I can say that the more gloves off approach is common, lack of congeniality here not much different than Barry Bonds debates. But on the bright side, no one is getting burned at the stake or beheaded like in the 16th C. so perhaps this is progress...

 

[Spade48d]

I`m not sure what psycho-analytical spin I`d put on it Spade. But as one who has discussed a variety of topics on the internet, religion, sports, politics, etc., I can say that the more gloves off approach is common, lack of congeniality here not much different than Barry Bonds debates. But on the bright side, no one is getting burned at the stake or beheaded like in the 16th C. so perhaps this is progress...

LOL! You are right. The Spanish inquisition certainly aimed to curtail a lot of free thinking in its day. Perhaps the mods will retaliate and start removing "reputation points" as part of their own means of "cyber stoning" ;-)

 

[Oye11]

LOL! You are right. The Spanish inquisition certainly aimed to curtail a lot of free thinking in its day. Perhaps the mods will retaliate and start removing "reputation points" are part of their own mean of "cyber stoning" ;-)

True, and keep in mind, the Protestants had "inquisitions" and executions of "heretics" as well.

 

[BBAS 64]

Good Day, Gordon

All I can say is oh my..........

in Him,

Bill

 

[nobdysfool]

It seems that Gordon has abandoned his thread, in the face of some clear refutation of the illogic of his chosen position. it has been demonstrated clearly that his opposition to Calvinism is not based on fact, but on emotions.

Tagging "growth" as a measure of scriptural accuracy is an invalid and misleading yardstick. As was pointed out, Joel Osteen's church has shown tremendous growth, but he is not preaching the Gospel once delivered to the saints, but a feel-good, "your best life now", ear- tickling false gospel. I would venture to say that Osteen's direction is a far cry from his father's.

Rick Warren and his "Purpose-Driven" message has caused far more division and church splitting than Calvinism has. Many good, conservative Christians have been hurt by the "Purpose Driven" false gospel. They have been driven from their churches, and cast aside, because they wouldn't "get with the program", which is all about numbers.

And make no mistake, numbers = money. What is behind the numbers drive is money, pure and simple. James had something to say about lovers of money, and it ain't pretty. Where the emphasis is on numbers of conversions, and more butts in the pews, the love of money is at the root of it.

 

[cygnusx1]

An interesting pattern of repetition occurs every time the issue of dynamic growing churches are the topic of discussion.

It only takes a mention of a vibrant soul winning church today, in the present, now, and Calvinist are all so willing to remind everyone of the “Then” and proudly gloat in “Nostalgia”.

Even this thread will be battered with bastions of by-gone-days championing “Charles Haddon Spurgeon” or proud point to William Cary. Yes! That is correct, they bask in a few champions for Christ who had a passion for Souls and not only did they speak of it they lived it and purposed it. However, today’s so-called followers of the false doctrine known as Calvinism are Church killers, anti evangelism, dead dry elitist, better than thou proselytizers. The Calvinist based churches where this false doctrine is openly taught are stagnant or decreasing in number.

Semper Reformanda! Lean back!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AO_A_sj6b-0

 

[DeaconDean]

You know guys, it just hit me that Gordon and his "anti-Calvinist" campaign seems to forget one vital fact.

If it wasn't for a certain "reformer" having the guts to stand up to a certain church and say: "This ain't right."

Gordon would be worshipping in "the one true church."

The very liberty to worship God in which ever church he sees fit, in any denomination he choses, is one in which comes from a certain "reformer."

Ha-Ha.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[nobdysfool]

You just HAD to bring up that "inconvenient" little fact, didn't ya?

of course, guys like that think that they would have the guts to stand up just as that "one certain reformer" did, if only it hadn't already been done.... Oh, the glory that could have been theirs......

Then again, Baptists don't consider themselves to be Protestant, either.....

 

[cygnusx1]

You just HAD to bring up that "inconvenient" little fact, didn't ya?

of course, guys like that think that they would have the guts to stand up just as that "one certain reformer" did, if only it hadn't already been done.... Oh, the glory that could have been theirs......

Then again, Baptists don't consider themselves to be Protestant, either.....

Strict Baptists do !

 

[nobdysfool]

Define "Strict Baptists"....

 

[nobdysfool]

It seems Gordon has lost the will to continue his anti-Calvinistic campaign. In fact, he's gone missing.....

 

[cygnusx1]

Define "Strict Baptists"....

the term 'Strict Baptist' is used to describe those Baptists that practice closed communion , only fellow believers in that Chapel , or men known to the pastorate who are in good standing may take communion .

Usually the Strict Baptists are called "Strict and Particular" ....... Particular has refence to particular Redemption as opposed to "general baptists" who hold to a general atonement view.


The Strict Baptists basically are the Calvinistic Baptists , some have gone Hyper (the GSB) but nearly all these church's have John Gill as there formost theologian.

The nearest I am denominationaly speaking is Strict and Particular baptist.

further info ;

http://www.the-faith.org.uk/spb.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strict_Baptist

 

[Oye11]

It seems Gordon has lost the will to continue his anti-Calvinistic campaign. In fact, he's gone missing.....

Either that or he has a life.... I guess some of us may never make it into the 10s of 1000s of posts range. Perhaps not a bad thing...

 

[cygnusx1]

Either that or he has a life.... I guess some of us may never make it into the 10s of 1000s of posts range. Perhaps not a bad thing...

part timer !!!

 

[Easystreet]

Now, Now folks I am still here and Calvinism is still a false Doctrine. Can't eat if you don't work.

 

[Easystreet]

CURED​

C- Conditional Salvation
Mark 1:14. Now after John had been taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, 15. and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel."
Luke 15:7. "I tell you that in the same way, there will be {more} joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.
Acts 17: 30. "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all {people} everywhere should repent,
II Peter 3: 9. The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
Acts 16: 30. and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
31. They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."
Romans 4:5. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,
Romans 10:9. that if you confess with your mouth Jesus {as} Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10. for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
I Corinthians 1:21. For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not {come to} know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

U- Unlimited Atonement
John 1: 4. In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. 6. There came a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7. He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him.
John 3:16. "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17. "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. )
John 12:32. "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.";
John 12:47. "If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world.
I Timothy 2: 6. who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony {given} at the proper time.
I Timothy 4:10. For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.
Hebrews 2:9. But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, {namely,} Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.
II Peter 2:1. But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
I John 2: 2. and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for {those of} the whole world

R- Resistible Grace
Acts 28: 24. Some were being persuaded by the things spoken, but others would not believe.
Acts 17:0. "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all {people} everywhere should repent,
John 5:40. and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.
II Peter 3:9. The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
Luke 7:30. But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God's purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.
Acts 7:51. "You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.
Matthew 23:37. "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.
John 7:17. "If anyone is willing to do His will, he will know of the teaching, whether it is of God or {whether} I speak from Myself.

E - Eternal Security
John 10:9. "My Father, who has given {them} to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch {them} out of the Father's hand. 30. "I and the Father are one."
John 6:39. "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day
John 14:16. "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;
II Corinthians 1: 22. who also sealed us and gave {us} the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.
Ephesians 4:30. Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption
Philippians 1: 6. {For I am} confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.
Hebrews 7:25. Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
I Peter 1: 5. who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

D- Delivered from being Dead in Trespasses and sin
1. And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2. in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5. even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6. and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly {places} in Christ Jesus, 7. so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8. For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {salvation is} the gift of God; 9. not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
Romans 5: 20. The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21. so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Romans 6:6. knowing this, that our old self was crucified with {Him,} in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
7. for he who has died is freed from sin. 11. Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 22. But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.23. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 8: 10. If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
II Corinthians 5: 19. namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
I Corinthians 15:56. The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law;
57. but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Galatians 3:22. But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe
Ephesians 1: 19. namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

 

[cygnusx1]

The Arminian Heresy of Universal Atonement

Many today believe and teach the Arminian heresy of universal atonement. The Synod of Dordt (1618-19), the most international assembly of Reformed Protestants, declares that Christ redeemed the elect "and those only" (2.8) and that those who teach that He died for everybody speak "contemptuously of the death of Christ" and "bring again out of hell the Pelagian error" (2.R.3). The Westminster Confession of Faith (1647) states, "Neither are any other redeemed by Christ ... but the elect only" (3.6). This article was included in the Congregational Savoy Declaration (1658) and in the Baptist Confession (1689).
A universal atonement means that Christ must have died for Esau whom God hated (Rom. 9:13); Judas, "the son of perdition" (John 17:12); and Antichrist, the "man of sin" (II Thess. 2:3); as well as the harlot, the false church (Rev. 17:1-2); those who commit the unpardonable sin (Matt. 12:32); and those who never hear the Word (Ps. 147:19-20) or are already in Hell. Is this consistent with the infinite power, wisdom and holiness of God?
A universal atonement means that Christ merely makes salvation possible and thus it denies that His death actually saves. The Bible, however, declares that Christ delivered (Heb. 2:15), reconciled (Rom. 5:10), redeemed and ransomed (Gal. 3:13), and justified His people "by his blood" (Rom. 5:9). If Jesus paid the price for everybody head for head and some perish in Hell, then His atonement does not save all—or even most of those—for whom it was made. How can Christ be "satisfied" in His atonement (Isa. 53:10), if millions perish for whom He shed His blood? Then too Christ’s death is not substitutionary, for if He took the punishment of the reprobate, why are they judged? If some for whom Christ died go to Hell, then God punishes their sins twice, once on Christ and once on them. Is this consistent with the infinite justice and righteousness of God? How can some whom Christ reconciled, and for whom there is no condemnation (Rom. 8:34), dwell forever in Hell?
Listen to John Wesley, an advocate of universal, ineffectual atonement: "What! Can the blood of Christ burn in hell? … I answer, ... If the oracles of God are true, one who was purchased by the blood of Christ may go thither. For he that was sanctified by the blood of Christ was purchased by the blood of Christ. But one who was sanctified by the blood of Christ may nevertheless go to hell; may fall under that fiery indignation which shall for ever devour the adversaries" (The Works of John Wesley [Grand Rapids: Baker, 1996], vol. 10, p. 297).

The Scriptures teach that Christ died for His "people" (Matt. 1:21) and His "friends" (John 15:13). He ransomed "his seed" (Isa. 53:10) and not the seed of the serpent (Gen. 3:15); His "sons," "children" and "brethren" (Heb. 2:10-14) and not "bastards" (Heb.12:8); His sheep (John 10:11) and not the goats (Matt. 25:33); His church (Eph. 5:25) and not the "synagogue of Satan" (Rev. 3:9); and the "many" (Matt. 26:28) and not everybody head for head. Many make the fundamental exegetical error of taking the word "world" (Greek: kosmos) to mean "everybody head for head" in John 1:29; 3:16; I John 2:2. Charles Spurgeon noted that nowhere in the Bible does "world" have this meaning. I challenge anyone to find one Biblical verse where "world" means "everybody head for head," and then prove that it has this meaning in a text teaching the extent of Christ’s atonement. Kosmos can mean the universe (Acts 17:24) or the Roman world (Col. 1:6) or the evil world system (John 12:31) or the reprobate (John 17:9) or the elect (John 4:42; 6:33; II Cor. 5:19) etc. The context is vital in explaining the Word, according to the great Reformation principle: Scripture interprets Scripture.
Just hours before the cross and with a view to His atoning death, Christ says, "I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me" (John 17:9). If Jesus did not do a lesser thing (pray for the reprobate world), how could He do a greater thing (die for the reprobate world)? If Christ did not pray for the ungodly world (one aspect of His priestly work), is it possible that He died for the ungodly world (the other aspect of His priestly work)? Moreover, Christ prays on the basis of His work of redemption. Therefore if Christ did not pray for the reprobate world, it is because He did not purchase salvation for them. Christ’s prayers and atonement are not only particular—"for them which thou hast given me"—but also exclusive, not "for the world."
Rev. Angus Stewart

 

[Jipsah]

Now, Now folks I am still here and Calvinism is still a false Doctrine.

Oh yeah, you're the guy who disagrees with the Bible on predestination, aren't you?