Today is Sunday, the solemnity of Christ the King

[Xeno.of.athens]

On this Sunday, Catholics are encouraged to say this prayer

---

Most sweet Jesus,
Redeemer of the human race,
look down upon us humbly prostrate before You.
We are Yours, and Yours we wish to be;
but to be more surely united with You,
behold each one of us freely consecrates himself today
to Your Most Sacred Heart.
Many indeed have never known You;
many, too, despising Your precepts, have rejected You.
Have mercy on them all, most merciful Jesus,
and draw them to your Sacred Heart.
Be King, O Lord,
not only of the faithful who have never forsaken You,
but also of the prodigal children who have abandoned You;
grant that they may quickly return to their Father's house,
lest they die of wretchedness and hunger.
Be King of those who are deceived by erroneous opinions,
or whom discord keeps aloof,
and call them back to the harbor of truth
and the unity of faith,
so that soon there may be but one flock and one Shepherd.
Grant, O Lord, to Your Church assurance of freedom
and immunity from harm;
give tranquility of order to all nations;
make the earth resound from pole to pole with one cry:
Praise to the Divine Heart that wrought our salvation;
to it be glory and honour for ever.

Amen.

---

It brings a plenary indulgence to the faithful who say it with faith and truth, today.

Many Protestants do not accept the idea of an indulgence - some are entirely opposed to it - yet the Catholic Church teaches it drawing from the practise of granting exemption from penances to those who had a note or a letter from a Christian Martyr about to be executed.

 

[BobRyan]

On this Sunday, Catholics are encouraged to say this prayer

---

Today is the 7th day of the week - the Sabbath, Saturday.

A day to keep holy according to the Sabbath commandment.
I guess we post in different timezones

---

It brings a plenary indulgence to the faithful who say it with faith and truth, today.

Many Protestants do not accept the idea of an indulgence - some are entirely opposed to it - yet the Catholic Church teaches it drawing from the practise of granting exemption from penances to those who had a note or a letter from a Christian Martyr about to be executed.

Since the doctrine on purgatory is not in the Bible how could Protestants have any motive for assigning importance to suggestions about indulgences to be earned for the dead that may or may not lessen time in a place named purgatory by some?

 

[St_Worm2]

Many Protestants do not accept the idea of an indulgence - some are entirely opposed to it.

Hello Xeno, I didn't know that there were/are any Protestant denominations and/or churches that teach a system of indulgences. If you know which ones do, please let me know. Thanks!

The Bible is clear concerning such things, and this is what it has to say (IOW, this is what the Bible has to say about the only true "plenary indulgence" that is available to us, and what we must do to receive it),

1 John 1​

9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from ~ALL~ unrighteousness.​

So, since God has promised the penitent Christian that He will...............

1. forgive our sins and​

2. cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness, as well,​

........................what else could we possibly need in addition to that

Protestants do not teach, but I think that we do hold to a treasury of merit (of sorts anyway). The difference is that the Protestant "treasury of merit" is filled (with what I believe the RCC calls "superabundant satisfactions", yes?) by one Person alone, because there are no creatures (even if they are named "Mary" and/or if they have the name "Saint" added as a title to front of their name by the church after they die) who possess enough inherent righteousness to save themselves from the punishment that they deserve, much less save someone else vicariously.

God bless you!!

--David

2 Corinthians 5​

21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. ​

.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Today is the 7th day of the week - the Sabbath, Saturday.

This thread is about Sunday, 26th-November-2023; it is not a Sabbath thread, please do not attempt to make it into one.

 

[PloverWing]

The idea of indulgences is not part of my church's tradition, but we will be celebrating Christ the King Sunday with you tomorrow.

Almighty and everlasting God, whose will it is to restore all things in your well-beloved Son, the King of kings and Lord of lords: Mercifully grant that the peoples of the earth, divided and enslaved by sin, may be freed and brought together under his most gracious rule; who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God, now and for ever. Amen.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Since the doctrine

Did you read the prayer, or did you skip over it, as your reply did?

 

[Philip_B]

Free the World to rejoice in Christ’s Peace, to glory in his justice, and to live in his love.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Free the World to rejoice in Christ’s Peace, to glory in his justice, and to live in his love.

The Lord says this: I am going to look after my flock myself and keep all of it in view. As a shepherd keeps all his flock in view when he stands up in the middle of his scattered sheep, so shall I keep my sheep in view. I shall rescue them from wherever they have been scattered during the mist and darkness. I myself will pasture my sheep, I myself will show them where to rest – it is the Lord who speaks. I shall look for the lost one, bring back the stray, bandage the wounded and make the weak strong. I shall watch over the fat and healthy. I shall be a true shepherd to them.
As for you, my sheep, the Lord says this: I will judge between sheep and sheep, between rams and he-goats.

 

[Philip_B]

The Lord says this: I am going to look after my flock myself and keep all of it in view. As a shepherd keeps all his flock in view when he stands up in the middle of his scattered sheep, so shall I keep my sheep in view. I shall rescue them from wherever they have been scattered during the mist and darkness. I myself will pasture my sheep, I myself will show them where to rest – it is the Lord who speaks. I shall look for the lost one, bring back the stray, bandage the wounded and make the weak strong. I shall watch over the fat and healthy. I shall be a true shepherd to them.
As for you, my sheep, the Lord says this: I will judge between sheep and sheep, between rams and he-goats.

Ezekial 34:15-16
I myself will be the shepherd of my sheep, and I will make them lie down, says the Lord God. I will seek the lost, and I will bring back the strayed, and I will bind up the injured, and I will strengthen the weak, but the fat and the strong I will destroy. I will feed them with justice.

 

[BobRyan]

Did you read the prayer, or did you skip over it, as your reply did?

I did read through it - and I agree it is a beautiful prayer - But you did not present it as simply "a nice prayer to consider" but rather something for earning a plenary indulgence. That is a huge topic as opposed to "how about this example of a nice prayer" - wouldn't you agree?

 

[BobRyan]

This thread is about Sunday, 26th-November-2023;

I did not see Nov 26, 2023 in your post. I just saw "this Sunday" as though today were the day.

But the day it was posted was Saturday - the 7th day Sabbath.

Did you mean "this coming Sunday"?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I did not see Nov 26, 2023 in your post. I just saw "this Sunday" as though today were the day.

But the day it was posted was Saturday - the 7th day Sabbath.

Did you mean "this coming Sunday"?

This Sunday is not Saturday, and the post has nothing whatever to do with Sabbath beliefs. So, please do not attempt to make this into a Sabbath thread.

 

[PloverWing]

Be King of those who are deceived by erroneous opinions,
or whom discord keeps aloof,
and call them back to the harbor of truth
and the unity of faith,
so that soon there may be but one flock and one Shepherd.

I reread the prayer this afternoon and began to wonder about some of its details and history. Xeno, do you know when the prayer was composed, and by whom? And: is this paragraph meant to be referring to us Separated Brethren? (It's okay, if so. May God indeed call all of us away from deception into a clearer understanding of truth. But the phrasing caught my eye.)

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I reread the prayer this afternoon and began to wonder about some of its details and history. Xeno, do you know when the prayer was composed, and by whom? And: is this paragraph meant to referring to us Separated Brethren? (It's okay, if so. May God indeed call all of us away from deception into a clearer understanding of truth. But the phrasing caught my eye.)

I haven't researched the source of the prayer; I doubt that it is ancient, but it could be. It is obviously in modern English so if it is ancient then the translation is modern.

It is general, probably it is mainly concerned with Catholics who have detached themselves from Church life. It is possible that separated brethren are also included by implication, but I doubt it was written with that thought to the fore.

 

[RileyG]

Blessed Christ the King Sunday!

 

[St_Worm2]

This is what the Bible has to say (about receiving "plenary indulgences"),

1 John 1​

9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from ~ALL~ unrighteousness.​

Hello @Xeno.of.athens, thank you for broaching the topic of plenary indulgences (even if you didn't mean to ), as I have oft times wondered what the point of them is (since the Lord promises to grant us the very same thing when we follow His simple/clear instructions in 1 John 1:9 ).

So, what is the point of an indulgence or plenary indulgence/what am I missing here

Are they considered to be necessary because what God promises to do for us in v9 (to forgive us [penitent believers] of the guilt of our sins, and to cleanse us from ~ALL~ unrighteousness) is seen as being insufficient in some way by the RCC (and EOC too?), and that a "plenary indulgence" is what the RCC/EOC believes is required to make up for the part of God's promise that is lacking?

Thanks

God bless you!!

--David
p.s. - it's possible that I am completely missing the point about RC "indulgences". If you think that I am, please do what you can to help me understand what they really are/what they are really indented to do. Thanks again
.

 

[Ceallaigh]

On this Sunday, Catholics are encouraged to say this prayer

---

Most sweet Jesus,
Redeemer of the human race,
look down upon us humbly prostrate before You.
We are Yours, and Yours we wish to be;
but to be more surely united with You,
behold each one of us freely consecrates himself today
to Your Most Sacred Heart.
Many indeed have never known You;
many, too, despising Your precepts, have rejected You.
Have mercy on them all, most merciful Jesus,
and draw them to your Sacred Heart.
Be King, O Lord,
not only of the faithful who have never forsaken You,
but also of the prodigal children who have abandoned You;
grant that they may quickly return to their Father's house,
lest they die of wretchedness and hunger.
Be King of those who are deceived by erroneous opinions,
or whom discord keeps aloof,
and call them back to the harbor of truth
and the unity of faith,
so that soon there may be but one flock and one Shepherd.
Grant, O Lord, to Your Church assurance of freedom
and immunity from harm;
give tranquility of order to all nations;
make the earth resound from pole to pole with one cry:
Praise to the Divine Heart that wrought our salvation;
to it be glory and honour for ever.

Amen.

---

It brings a plenary indulgence to the faithful who say it with faith and truth, today.

Many Protestants do not accept the idea of an indulgence - some are entirely opposed to it - yet the Catholic Church teaches it drawing from the practise of granting exemption from penances to those who had a note or a letter from a Christian Martyr about to be executed.

Protestants most definitely accept the idea of plenary indulgence as stated in 1 John 1:9.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Many Protestants do not accept the idea of an indulgence - some are entirely opposed to it - yet the Catholic Church teaches it drawing from the practise of granting exemption from penances to those who had a note or a letter from a Christian Martyr about to be executed.

So, what is the point of an indulgence or plenary indulgence/what am I missing here

It's all in the OP.

 

[St_Worm2]

It's all in the OP.

Hello again Xeno, I just reread the OP, but I still trying to understand what the point of an indulgence is

I'm not trying to be difficult, but considering what verses like 1 John 1:9 teach us (that God not only promises to forgive our sins, but to cleanse us from ~ALL~ unrighteous, as well), I simply cannot see a reason or need for them (for "indulgences", that is).

So, my basic question remains, why would anyone want/need to pursue and use an indulgence when God has already promised to provide us with everything that a plenary indulgence is meant to give us (and much more, actually) by simply confessing our sins to Him, and that, each and every time that we do?

I do apologize if it seems like I'm badgering you about this, as my only intent is to try and understand this from your POV as a Catholic. So, let's say that you just sinned and want to be both forgiven and fully cleansed of the sin that you just committed. God tells you how that can be accomplished in 1 John 1:9, so why would you ever choose to go the "plenary indulgence" route instead

As I asked earlier (and perhaps this is the piece of the puzzle that I'm missing in all of this), is there something about God's promises to us (in v9) that are lacking somehow, something more than all that He promises to do for us in that verse that still needs to be accomplished (something, IOW, that requires the use of an indulgence or a plenary indulgence)?

Thanks again

God bless you!!

--David

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Hello again Xeno, I just reread the OP, but I still trying to understand what the point of an indulgence is

I thought it was clear, and a brief web search would reveal ancient documents describing the practise that I mentioned, but I can reiterate what I said before and expand on it a little.

When a Christian was imprisoned by the Roman civil authorities, he/she was fed and cared for by family and friends. If the person was to be executed, they were counted as a martyr. If a friend approached the proto-martyr with a request for a letter or a note asking the local bishop to excuse the person from works of penance associated with their rehabilitation from a grave sin that letter was called an indulgence because it asked (begged) indulgence from the bishop and relief from a penance or all penances for the person named in it.

In later times the invocation of a saint and prayers and other holy acts were deemed by local bishops as the equivalent of the letters of indulgence from martyrs. This is the source of the practise of granting indulgences today.

As explained above, an indulgence applies to the penances that arise from confessed and forgiven sins; the church asks for penances from a forgiven sinner whenever their sins cause public scandal or other harm to individuals or the church. Examples of restorative justice can be found in many passages in the Old Testament and the penances imposed in the Christian Church served the same restorative purpose as the Old Testament material does.

I think this is sufficient to understand what an indulgence is. If this does not help you then I ask you to do the research I suggested and use your browser, eyes, and brain to check ancient sources that explain this practise. Its development into modern times is explained in the CCC.