To be independent, or not to be independent?

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bless_sins

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Peace to all,

Ever since the rise of nationalism at the end of World War II, the world has seen an unprecendented number of independent states. These states are often based upon ethnic or cultural boundaries. Sometimes, as in case of Middle East, the boundaries are drawn by the foreigners. Which brings up the question: whose land is it anyways??

Does land belong to the government, or the people inhabiting the area? Can the populaton from one region seperate from a larger country? Should the seperatists be seen as freedom fighters or terrorists? Should seperation happen through war (in case of America), or should it happen in a peaceful manner (in case of Canada)?

The BIG question:should people be allowed to seperate at all?
 

Maxwell511

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bless_sins said:
Does land belong to the government, or the people inhabiting the area?

The people's I believe anyway.

Can the populaton from one region seperate from a larger country?

Yes if it is the will of the people.

Should the seperatists be seen as freedom fighters or terrorists?

Depends on their tactics. For example the old IRA would be seen as freedom fighters because they attacked the military of a foreign government. The modern IRA would be seen as terrorists because they targeted civilians.

Should seperation happen through war (in case of America), or should it happen in a peaceful manner (in case of Canada)?

If peaceful means are impossible than war is justified.

The BIG question:should people be allowed to seperate at all?

Yes.
 
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bless_sins

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wat do u mean....
i am here, and i am watchng ur responses, don't think that i have left...

u want my respones?? ok:

whose land is it anyways??

The inhabitants (who have been thre for atleast 5 years) and the inhabitants only.

Can the populaton from one region seperate from a larger country?

Yes, why not.

Should the seperatists be seen as freedom fighters or terrorists?

Individual persons must be tried for their crimes, but the movement as a whole should be seen as freedom fighters. **

Should seperation happen through war (in case of America), or should it happen in a peaceful manner (in case of Canada)?

The seperation should happen through peaceful means. The best way is to have a referendum. IF the ruling gov still doesn't allow independence, then war and violence are justified (provided innocents are not killed).

And the answer to the BIG question is: YES

** A person is not born a terrorist but is made a terrorist, not by preaching, but through the experience of everyday life. If we supress terroirst, in time even more will come. The only solution to terrorism is economic justice, equal rights for all and establishing security.
 
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The Seeker

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bless_sins said:
Does land belong to the government, or the people inhabiting the area?
The people inhabiting the area. In a sense, any central state attempting to control a community is as much an occupying force as the US government currently is in Iraq, the former is merely more accepted by convention.

Can the populaton from one region seperate from a larger country?
I can't see why not, whether this is a positive step or a good idea is a separate question, of course.

Should the seperatists be seen as freedom fighters or terrorists?
As Maxwell said, it depends entirely upon their tactics and their aims. But really, the two terms are not a whole lot of use in political analysis, and IMO are best left well enough alone unless the status of a group is absolutely uncontroversial.

Should seperation happen through war (in case of America), or should it happen in a peaceful manner (in case of Canada)?
It depends on the situation.

The BIG question:should people be allowed to seperate at all?
Which people? Seperating from what and in what way? For what purpose?
 
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monkey88

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The future of humanity is with unity not seperation. Groups such as the African Union, The European Union, ASEAN which ultimately hope to form a nation, similar to the formation of the united states, are good, because they help communities economically and socially, by broadening their horizons to other lifestyles. Why should we focus on petty differences, we're all human.
 
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Maxwell511

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monkey88 said:
The future of humanity is with unity not seperation. Groups such as the African Union, The European Union, ASEAN which ultimately hope to form a nation, similar to the formation of the united states, are good, because they help communities economically and socially, by broadening their horizons to other lifestyles. Why should we focus on petty differences, we're all human.

Independence rule does not mean seperation. The goal of the E.U. is not to rule as one nation but to be a union of seperate nations with their cultural differences and legal status remaining in tact but with the nations united to serve their common interests.
 
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bless_sins

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OK, Let's take speific issues and discuss them:

One of the biggest partitions in world history was the partition of India into India, Pakistan (and later Bangladesh). The two countries have been at war ever since. WHat's more the two have nuclear weapons.

Was the partition of India justified?
 
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Maxwell511

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bless_sins said:
OK, Let's take speific issues and discuss them:

One of the biggest partitions in world history was the partition of India into India, Pakistan (and later Bangladesh). The two countries have been at war ever since. WHat's more the two have nuclear weapons.

Was the partition of India justified?

From what I understand they are disputing the Kashmir region. I believe that partition was justified but I am not familiar with the origins of the border disputes.
 
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xMinionX

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bless_sins said:
Sometimes, as in case of Middle East, the boundaries are drawn by the foreigners.
I am convinced that this played a huge factor in the developmental lag of the middle east and Africa.

Which brings up the question: whose land is it anyways??

It belongs to the people who live there.

Does land belong to the government, or the people inhabiting the area?

The people. The system of government can be a factor. A democratically elected government could be seen as being representative of the people, and so might have more claim to the land. Tough call, though.

Can the populaton from one region seperate from a larger country?
Realistically, no. One region splitting off usually means denial of certain resources to the rest of the state. They won't part kindly with them. They might manage it, but it probably won't be peaceful.
Should the seperatists be seen as freedom fighters or terrorists?
Really tough call, but I think this is a question of methods and perspective. If your methods of separating involve blowing up buses and airplanes, you are probably a terrorist. But if your end goal is to free your people from a percieved oppressor, then they might forgive the methods and call you a freedom fighter.

Should seperation happen through war (in case of America), or should it happen in a peaceful manner (in case of Canada)?

War should always be the last option. Not saying it should not be an option, but only when every single peaceful measure has been exhausted.

The BIG question:should people be allowed to seperate at all?

Should they? Yes. Realistically? They won't be without a huge fight (war or not).
 
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bless_sins

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I have created this thread to discuss seperation in general. as far as i am concerend seperation doesn't neccasarily mean annexation. there are movments in kashmir for total independence from both pakistan and india - and those movements are just as legitmate as other ones.

AS for the history of Kashmir, I wil try to put it in as little bias as possible:

At the turn of the century, Indian independence movement gained full momemtum. The "Indian National Congress" was the political party responsible for lobbying the British into leaving India. Initially, all indians regardless of religon were part of this movement. SInce, roughly 65% of India's pop. was Hindu, naturally Hindus dominated the congress as well. The Muslims who made about 30% of India's population felt left out.

Gradually, Muslims started to leave the congress and formed a new seperate political party called the "All India Muslim League". The purpose of this party was to create a seperate country where Muslims would be the majority. On the other hand, Hindu nationalists formed thier own party the "Hindu Mahasabha".

Around World War II, Muslims gained the British attention. And in 1940, the British agreed to seperate India into two countries.

The areas of Muslim majority would form a seperate republic called Pakistan. Everything else (Hindu, Sikh, Buddhist etc.) would continue to form the republic of India.

So 1947, the year of independence finally arrived. AS the British began to paks up and leave, a form of lawlessness was unleashed. Killings of Muslims by Hindus and of Hindus by Muslims plagued India. Previously to these killings, Indians had been working towards a union and not a seperation. After these killings, however, a threat of a full scale civil war caused many people to believe that seperation was the only answer.

Some 8 million Muslims left what would be India for Pakistan, and some 6 million HIndus left what would be Pakistan for India.

The problem came when it was time for the princely states to decide which country to choose. In all of the princely states, the ruler was of the same religion as the subjects except 3. In all of those joining either Pakistan or India was no problem.

The three exceptions were:
Kashmir (Muslim majoirty ruled by Hindu prince), Jungadh (Hindu majoirty ruled by Muslim), and the all-famous state of Hyderabad (Hindu majoirty ruled by Muslim).

Junagadh: The instrument of assecion was signed in Pakistan's favor, but there was a plebiscite, and the outcome of it was that the people chose to join India. The State went to India.

Hyderabad: The Nizam (prince) of Hyderabad wanted to remain independent. But since the population was mainly Hindu, the state was invaded and occupied by the Indian Army.

Kashmir: The Prince of Kashmir also wanted to remain independent, despite the majority of Muslims. SInce the population was Muslim, Pakistan invaded Kashmir, at which the Prince, however, chose to join India. India then invaded Kashmir. Neither India nor Pakistan were able to completely occupy Kashmir. The two have fought ever since.

The two took their case to the U.N., which called for a plebiscite. The U.N. called Pakistan to withdraw from Kashmir, and for India to remove most of its troops as well. Neither PAkistan withdrew nor India reduce its troops to minimal.
 
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bless_sins

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Solutions to the conflict:

Indian Proposal:
(i) India would annex all of Kashmir, including that controlled by Pakistan.
(ii) India and Pakistan put an end to the conflict by accepting their current borders as permanent borders. The current borders have little meaning in terms of enthnicty or choice of country.

Pakistani Proposal:
(i) UN sponsored plebiscite, in which all or parts of Kashmir decide their future.
(ii) "Chenab formula": Pakistan annexes most of the Vale of Kashmir (95% Muslim), while India retains Jammu (66% Hindu), and Ladakh (50% Buddhist).
(iii) Both Pakistan and India remove their armies from the region. Azad Kashmir(99% Muslim) and Vale of Kashmir (95% Muslim) become a sovereign dependency. The rest of Kashmir (mainly Hindu and Buddhist) also becomes a seperate sovereign dependency.

Other Porposal:
(i) Pakistan and India both leave Kashmir, and Kashmir becomes an independent nation where the people of Kashmir alone govern the region.

Any of your solutions are also welcomed.
 
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sanaa

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ahem india did not invade kashmir . pakistan invaded kashmir breaking the settlement between kashmir and pakistan . kashmir then asked india to stop the pakistani advancing army . from then kashmir handed over its defense matters to india . it is india's duty to protect kashmir . also the UN resolution says that pakistan should withdraw from the invaded area and then india should hold a plebiscite. since pakistan has done no such thing the resolution becomes invalid .
 
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bless_sins

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sanaa said:
ahem india did not invade kashmir . pakistan invaded kashmir breaking the settlement between kashmir and pakistan .
.

ahem I already siad PAkistan invaded Kashmir. But India's troops didn't get miraculously. It sent its troops in there.

Whether or not it had the right, is to be decided by the Kashmiri people.

sanaa said:
also the UN resolution says that pakistan should withdraw from the invaded area and then india should hold a plebiscite. since pakistan has done no such thing the resolution becomes invalid .

The resolution also calls India to maintain "a minimal" military presence. India on the other hand has put A LOT of troops there.

Also, Pakistan is suspicious that India might rig the plebiscite, jsut like it has rigged election in the past.

Anyways, currently PAkistan demands a U.N. sponsored plebiscite in all or atleast some parts of KAshmir. I think that is fair.
 
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sanaa

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bless_sins said:
ahem I already siad PAkistan invaded Kashmir. But India's troops didn't get miraculously. It sent its troops in there.

Whether or not it had the right, is to be decided by the Kashmiri people.

did u not read the part where i said the kashmiri ruler asked india to stop the advancing pakistani army and after that handed over kashmir's defense matters to india thereby it is india's duty to protect kashmir . i noticed u missed quoting this part


The resolution also calls India to maintain "a minimal" military presence. India on the other hand has put A LOT of troops there.

yes but only after the late 1980's when the terrorism started . it is our duty to protect the state . notice the time when the terrorism started . it was directly after the aghanistan war when all the trained mujahadeen had nowhere to go

Also, Pakistan is suspicious that India might rig the plebiscite, jsut like it has rigged election in the past.

oh please un officials would be there to supervise the plebiscite . btw what elections has india rigged . please provide evidence for ur claims?

Anyways, currently PAkistan demands a U.N. sponsored plebiscite in all or atleast some parts of KAshmir. I think that is fair.

sure it can happen right after pakistan withdraws from all parts of kashmir it has invaded
 
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bless_sins

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Sanaa, you don't get my point.

Pakistan demands a plebiscite. It is obviuosly willing to do everything possible for the this event to occur.

India on the other hand, currntly does not accept the PAkistani proposal. WHY???

Kashmiris should be allowed to decide their own future!
 
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bless_sins

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Salam (Peace),

This is from an Indian article:

"While most elections in Kashmir have been rigged, what was distinctive about the 1987 election was that fraud was combined with violence. Polling agents of the Muslim United Front (MUF) were thrown out of booths and beaten up. Several of those who subsequently joined the militant ranks were eyewitnesses to the electoral fraud perpetrated by the Indian state. "


http://www.atimes.com/ind-pak/DA25Df01.html
 
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