"To Be in Heaven, You Must be Catholic"

[1Co13]

When you come in the presence of Christ you will know he is the Father.

The Lord is the only one that can directly tap into your soul.

The world that you see with your human senses is what the devil uses to give you an illusionary reality.

If you have a loved one and you don't see that loved one for a period of time, then when you reunite with them, you know it is your loved one.

You believe that sense level and you would not doubt it would you.

Now image this experience surpasses the human senses, surpasses emotional thought processes of the brain, surpasses the mind, this experience goes at an even deeper level to the very fabric of your soul that knows who your Father that brought you into this world is.

I testify that all people when they pass from this life and come in the presence of deity will know with 100% certainty that they are in the presence of the Father. It is written all eyes will see him.

These are not physical eyes but the soul level discernment. After all if all eyes saw the Christ at any other level of discernment, they will all have a different perspective. When Jesus asked the disciples who do people thing I am, they would range in opinion. In the case of all eyes will see him means a soul deep level of discernment, where all life knows who the life giver is. It is encoded in your soul his fingerprint of ownership.

The bible says Christ is in the father but does not say he is the father. When Jesus prayed he didn't pray to himself, right?

Joh 14:28 ¶ Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

 

[Albion]

Very well. There are different ways of looking at the Trinity.

The topic of this thread, however, is something else. It concerns the proposition that membership in a certain denomination is a part of salvation. Or, as the OP put it--

"1. Jesus only has one body.
2. To be in heaven, one must be a member of the body of Christ
3. The body of Christ is the Church.
4. The Church instituted by Christ has a name – the Catholic Church.
Therefore, to be in heaven, one must be a member of the Catholic Church."


What would you say to the Roman Catholics who believe this?

 

[1Co13]

Jesus calls us brethren, not his children.


1Jo 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.


And sorry for straying off topic

 

[prodromos]

How does one test a vision?

Compare it with what has been consistently taught?

Joseph Smith, the founder of the Mormons believed he was visited by Christ and then later by an angel. Mohammed believed he was visited by an angel. Neither tested their visions.

 

[Albion]

Compare it with what has been consistently taught?

Just wondering....

Why would comparing with conventional information be the test of a vision? Presumably, a vision occurs for a reason, because something different needs to be known.

 

[Rhamiel]

Just wondering....

Why would comparing with conventional information be the test of a vision? Presumably, a vision occurs for a reason, because something different needs to be known.

the cannon of scripture is closed
that is the end of general revelation

there will be nothing "new"
visions are used to remind individuals or even entire nations to turn back to God, give up sin, focus on right beliefs
never to introduce new doctrine
the closest would be maybe a new emphasis

 

[Standing Up]

the cannon of scripture is closed
that is the end of general revelation

there will be nothing "new"
visions are used to remind individuals or even entire nations to turn back to God, give up sin, focus on right beliefs
never to introduce new doctrine
the closest would be maybe a new emphasis

When last apostle, one of the sons of thunder, to die, closed the canon, the God-breathed word. Thus no new doctrine and no different source, including those from Tradition.

One must admit, however, that if you're going to claim a vision, better it to be Christ, than various alternatives (Mary for example).

 

[Stryder06]

How does one test a vision?

To the law and the testimony. If they speak not in accordance with this word, it is because there is no light in them (Isa 8:20)

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Christ will always be my Father. Do you have a problem with that?

Yes. We're Christians. Christians believe in the Trinity, and in the Trinity the Son is not the Father.

See?

Whoever wants to be saved should above all cling to the catholic faith.

Whoever does not guard it whole and inviolable will doubtless perish eternally.

Now this is the catholic faith: We worship one God in trinity and the Trinity in unity, neither confusing the persons nor dividing the divine being.

For the Father is one person, the Son is another, and the Spirit is still another.

But the deity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one, equal in glory, coeternal in majesty.

What the Father is, the Son is, and so is the Holy Spirit.

Uncreated is the Father; uncreated is the Son; uncreated is the Spirit.

The Father is infinite; the Son is infinite; the Holy Spirit is infinite.

Eternal is the Father; eternal is the Son; eternal is the Spirit: And yet there are not three eternal beings, but one who is eternal; as there are not three uncreated and unlimited beings, but one who is uncreated and unlimited.

Almighty is the Father; almighty is the Son; almighty is the Spirit: And yet there are not three almighty beings, but one who is almighty.

Thus the Father is God; the Son is God; the Holy Spirit is God: And yet there are not three gods, but one God.

Thus the Father is Lord; the Son is Lord; the Holy Spirit is Lord: And yet there are not three lords, but one Lord.

As Christian truth compels us to acknowledge each distinct person as God and Lord, so catholic religion forbids us to say that there are three gods or lords.

The Father was neither made nor created nor begotten; the Son was neither made nor created, but was alone begotten of the Father; the Spirit was neither made nor created, but is proceeding from the Father and the Son.

Thus there is one Father, not three fathers; one Son, not three sons; one Holy Spirit, not three spirits.

And in this Trinity, no one is before or after, greater or less than the other; but all three persons are in themselves, coeternal and coequal; and so we must worship the Trinity in unity and the one God in three persons.

Whoever wants to be saved should think thus about the Trinity.

It is necessary for eternal salvation that one also faithfully believe that our Lord Jesus Christ became flesh.

For this is the true faith that we believe and confess: That our Lord Jesus Christ, God's Son, is both God and man.

He is God, begotten before all worlds from the being of the Father, and he is man, born in the world from the being of his mother -- existing fully as God, and fully as man with a rational soul and a human body; equal to the Father in divinity, subordinate to the Father in humanity.

Although he is God and man, he is not divided, but is one Christ.

He is united because God has taken humanity into himself; he does not transform deity into humanity.

He is completely one in the unity of his person, without confusing his natures.

For as the rational soul and body are one person, so the one Christ is God and man.

He suffered death for our salvation. He descended into hell and rose again from the dead.

He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

He will come again to judge the living and the dead.

At his coming all people shall rise bodily to give an account of their own deeds.

Those who have done good will enter eternal life, those who have done evil will enter eternal fire.

This is the catholic faith.

One cannot be saved without believing this firmly and faithfully.

 

[Stryder06]

Yes. We're Christians. Christians believe in the Trinity, and in the Trinity the Son is not the Father.

See?

Whoever wants to be saved should above all cling to the catholic faith.

Whoever does not guard it whole and inviolable will doubtless perish eternally.

Now this is the catholic faith: We worship one God in trinity and the Trinity in unity, neither confusing the persons nor dividing the divine being.

For the Father is one person, the Son is another, and the Spirit is still another.

But the deity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one, equal in glory, coeternal in majesty.

What the Father is, the Son is, and so is the Holy Spirit.

Uncreated is the Father; uncreated is the Son; uncreated is the Spirit.

The Father is infinite; the Son is infinite; the Holy Spirit is infinite.

Eternal is the Father; eternal is the Son; eternal is the Spirit: And yet there are not three eternal beings, but one who is eternal; as there are not three uncreated and unlimited beings, but one who is uncreated and unlimited.

Almighty is the Father; almighty is the Son; almighty is the Spirit: And yet there are not three almighty beings, but one who is almighty.

Thus the Father is God; the Son is God; the Holy Spirit is God: And yet there are not three gods, but one God.

Thus the Father is Lord; the Son is Lord; the Holy Spirit is Lord: And yet there are not three lords, but one Lord.

As Christian truth compels us to acknowledge each distinct person as God and Lord, so catholic religion forbids us to say that there are three gods or lords.

The Father was neither made nor created nor begotten; the Son was neither made nor created, but was alone begotten of the Father; the Spirit was neither made nor created, but is proceeding from the Father and the Son.

Thus there is one Father, not three fathers; one Son, not three sons; one Holy Spirit, not three spirits.

And in this Trinity, no one is before or after, greater or less than the other; but all three persons are in themselves, coeternal and coequal; and so we must worship the Trinity in unity and the one God in three persons.

Whoever wants to be saved should think thus about the Trinity.

It is necessary for eternal salvation that one also faithfully believe that our Lord Jesus Christ became flesh.

For this is the true faith that we believe and confess: That our Lord Jesus Christ, God's Son, is both God and man.

He is God, begotten before all worlds from the being of the Father, and he is man, born in the world from the being of his mother -- existing fully as God, and fully as man with a rational soul and a human body; equal to the Father in divinity, subordinate to the Father in humanity.

Although he is God and man, he is not divided, but is one Christ.

He is united because God has taken humanity into himself; he does not transform deity into humanity.

He is completely one in the unity of his person, without confusing his natures.

For as the rational soul and body are one person, so the one Christ is God and man.

He suffered death for our salvation. He descended into hell and rose again from the dead.

He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

He will come again to judge the living and the dead.

At his coming all people shall rise bodily to give an account of their own deeds.

Those who have done good will enter eternal life, those who have done evil will enter eternal fire.

This is the catholic faith.

One cannot be saved without believing this firmly and faithfully.

Guess I'm screwed lol...oh wait, no I'm not

 

[Root of Jesse]

When last apostle, one of the sons of thunder, to die, closed the canon, the God-breathed word. Thus no new doctrine and no different source, including those from Tradition.

One must admit, however, that if you're going to claim a vision, better it to be Christ, than various alternatives (Mary for example).

True, but how do you account for the deletion of complete Scriptural texts from the Canon after 1500?

Mary is not an alternative to Christ. Anyone who says so is wrong, and anyone who claims the Catholic Church says so needs to do some digging.

 

[Rev Randy]

Just wondering....

Why would comparing with conventional information be the test of a vision? Presumably, a vision occurs for a reason, because something different needs to be known.

Are you speaking of something personal for the one having the vision or something completely new for all?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Isn't your own position something along the lines that what you believe and teach is true and, as far as is possible for you, a faithful and complete representation of the gospel truth given to the faithful by God? So how would that position, if you hold it, differ from "one true church"?

Folk who are passionate about their faith tend to think it is true.

Yes, your point is quite valid. I see a spectrum of beliefs on this issue and do not see it in black and white terms. At one end of the spectrum are churches and individuals who exclude all others from even being Christian in any sense of the word and see themselves as being the one, true church (yes, it is possible for a single person to think of himself in that light). At the other end of the spectrum are universalists who profess that "all truth is God's truth" and that it is vain and arrogant to hold any religious doctrines as true. The Catholic Church IMO is right of center on the spectrum, but certainly not at the exclusive end of the spectrum. How do you see the Catholic Church on this spectrum?

 

[Rev Randy]

Guess I'm screwed lol...oh wait, no I'm not

I take it you didn't like that Creed.

 

[bbbbbbb]

the cannon of scripture is closed
that is the end of general revelation

there will be nothing "new"
visions are used to remind individuals or even entire nations to turn back to God, give up sin, focus on right beliefs
never to introduce new doctrine
the closest would be maybe a new emphasis

Actually, general revelation is understood to mean the revelation of God which is evident to all mankind. This form of revelation includes nature and all of creation.

Special revelation is the revelation of God to His people in the form of what we have in the Bible, the Word of God.

Both forms of revelation are complete.

 

[Rev Randy]

Yes, your point is quite valid. I see a spectrum of beliefs on this issue and do not see it in black and white terms. At one end of the spectrum are churches and individuals who exclude all others from even being Christian in any sense of the word and see themselves as being the one, true church (yes, it is possible for a single person to think of himself in that light). At the other end of the spectrum are universalists who profess that "all truth is God's truth" and that it is vain and arrogant to hold any religious doctrines as true. The Catholic Church IMO is right of center on the spectrum, but certainly not at the exclusive end of the spectrum. How do you see the Catholic Church on this spectrum?

Now that is a valid question. I'd be disappointed in him if I couldn't predict his answer.
If one does not feel they are a part of the One true church, I'd hope they'd be seeking it elsewhere.
If Mr. Many B's told me his Church was the one true Church, I wouldn't get upset. I might not be convinced but I'd expect that from you. I mean what Christian would desire to be a part of the fake Church?

 

[1Co13]

Mary is not an alternative to Christ. Anyone who says so is wrong, and anyone who claims the Catholic Church says so needs to do some digging.

Not that i want a debate but i need to ask, what is this co redeemer doctrine about? It sounds scary. Christ alone is all that we should glory in, no man or woman should share in that glory (1Co 3:21) This sounds like a different Gospel, and im not sure if it agrees with the Creed either.

 

[Rhamiel]

Now that is a valid question. I'd be disappointed in him if I couldn't predict his answer.
If one does not feel they are a part of the One true church, I'd hope they'd be seeking it elsewhere.
If Mr. Many B's told me his Church was the one true Church, I wouldn't get upset. I might not be convinced but I'd expect that from you. I mean what Christian would desire to be a part of the fake Church?

that is one thing I never really understand about Protestantism
why are they so gung-ho about a system that even they admit is faulty
they are ready to say "oh well every denomination has something wrong with it" and "no one gets it right 100%"
they are only ok with these faulty man-made systems because they think there is no alternative

Not that i want a debate but i need to ask, what is this co redeemer doctrine about? It sounds scary. Christ alone is all that we should glory in, no man or woman should share in that glory (1Co 3:21) This sounds like a different Gospel, and im not sure if it agrees with the Creed either.

God used the person of Mary in a unique way
it was through her that Christ entered the world
it is through her that Christ got His humanity
because of this she has a special role in the history of God saving mankind

that is the proper understanding of what the term means
I do not care for it either because it is easy to misunderstand and there are better ways to say the same thing that speak to me directly

 

[1Co13]

God used the person of Mary in a unique way
it was through her that Christ entered the world
it is through her that Christ got His humanity
because of this she has a special role in the history of God saving mankind

that is the proper understanding of what the term means
I do not care for it either because it is easy to misunderstand and there are better ways to say the same thing that speak to me directly

Mary plays no role in redeeming mankind any more than Adam does, thats the work of God alone through Christs atonement. Neither the Creed or the Gospel supports the notion of a co redeemer outside of the trinity.

 

[Rev Randy]

Mary plays no role in redeeming mankind any more than Adam does, thats the work of God alone through Christs atonement. Neither the Creed or the Gospel supports the notion of a co redeemer outside of the trinity.

Well, after you birth, nurse and raise God in the flesh then tell me she played no role. St.Joseph was not His natural father but even he played a role in our salvation.