Thoughts on women and dresses?

[Hadassah]

Probably works the same for women (in relation to men), too?

Sometimes yes.

I am more of a people watcher, and then there are days where I couldn't really notice *anyone* for all that I am already paying attention to. I'm lucky to realise what my DH is wearing some days

 

[johnd]

Such a normal male. I mean, is anyone here surprised? Honestly, men are going to think about sex all the time even when women dress modestly. I don't think we need to be freaky and wear burkas, but I don't think we should shove our boobs in their faces and shout "deal with it!" either. Tznius is an attempt to be just decent to men.

Amen.

It's a matter of being responsible (both men and women) to the fact that there are others "out there" besides ourselves and our own lusts or pride or whatever motivates us to make life more difficult (sexually or otherwise) for anyone else.

Yeshua said it like this: love your neighbor as yourself, do unto others as you would have others do unto you... even... love your enemies.

When in America we used to live more by this standard than we do today, it was a more pleasant place to live in. What's in it for me? mentality makes everyone frustrated unhappy and building on the m isery of others... i.e. what you described and worse...

G-d bless.

 

[Kris10leigh]

Amen.

It's a matter of being responsible (both men and women) to the fact that there are others "out there" besides ourselves and our own lusts or pride or whatever motivates us to make life more difficult (sexually or otherwise) for anyone else.

Yeshua said it like this: love your neighbor as yourself, do unto others as you would have others do unto you... even... love your enemies.

When in America we used to live more by this standard than we do today, it was a more pleasant place to live in. What's in it for me? mentality makes everyone frustrated unhappy and building on the m isery of others... i.e. what you described and worse...

G-d bless.

I refer to this as entitlement and nothing irks me more!

 

[Hadassah]

yes, nothing bothers me more than that entitlement mentality.

 

[Kris10leigh]

The worst case of entitlement I have ever come across was driving 50 mph down a four line major state route. A very young man stepped off the curb to cross the road and I came within an inch of hitting him. He looked at me like "What kind of nerve do you have driving when I'm walking?" He sauntered right into my car! There was no cross walk! This was no neighborhood.

Oh, another time there was a group of teenagers literally hanging out in the middle of the road. They were in the yellow turn lane that runs between the four lanes of traffic. I thought they were standing there waiting to cross, but when I checked my rear-view mirror they never crossed and they were still there when I came back from running my errand!

 

[Nooj]

How do you all feel about women and dresses? I'm thinking of this passage:
"A woman shall not wear anything that pertains to a man, nor shall a man put on a woman's garment; for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD your God." (Deut 22:5).

Isn't that really a matter of culture though? The traditional Scottish garment of course is the kilt - is it a woman's garment? Pants have been mainstream for about 60 years now, ever since women started working in factories. It's not considered something that pertains to a man any longer.

I wonder, do you also give equal consideration to Deut 22:11-12 for the law about sha'atnez?

 

[Kris10leigh]

Isn't that really a matter of culture though? The traditional Scottish garment of course is the kilt - is it a woman's garment? Pants have been mainstream for about 60 years now, ever since women started working in factories. It's not considered something that pertains to a man any longer.

I wonder, do you also give equal consideration to Deut 22:11-12 for the law about sha'atnez?

It is a matter of culture, yes.

Here is the scripture you refer to:
1 Don't wear clothes of mixed fabrics, wool and linen together.

12 Make tassels on the four corners of the cloak you use to cover yourself.



For others this answer will be different, but for me, this is no longer culturally relevant. Surely there was a good reason wool and linen should not be woven together. Today perhaps we have technology that makes it possible? I don't know. We no longer wear cloaks either and again, there was (and perhaps IS) a reason for those tassels.

Wearing dresses/skirts is different. I can tell you that since I have worn only skirts and dresses this week, I have had numerous compliments. People have more open to talk with me??? I don't know why. I feel more confident.

My personal reasons for attempting a switch to this style is for personal improvement both in my relationship with God and with my husband, and perhaps with myself as well. My husband likes the way I look when I dress this way. God thinks that it should be easy to tell the difference between a man and a woman. Culturally, that's still relevant today.

Is there anything wrong with women wearing pants? Of course not! Is there anything wrong with men wearing kilts? Absolutely not. I'm not passing judgement on anyone but me, and for me, this is the right decision.

You (and others) may be surprised to know that I'm ok with drag. I believe God did make some men more feminine and some women more masculine. What a person wears does no one any harm. On the other hand, I prize modesty. So a drag queens dress had better be below the knee.

 

[anisavta]

My goodness woman you are opening up a whole new tangent for people to run with now!!! Better start a new thread fast.

Back to the culture thing. I get a kick out of our justification cards we pull out when something is "uncomfortable" to us.
"If we were to have pierced ears we would have been born that way..."
"Men wore robes not pants..."
Can't think of more now but I heard and when the kids were small used several from the arsenal.
Men's robes and women's robes were quite different back in the day. Men wore an inner garment that they could tuck up their legs and around so they could work with an outer robe for modesty. Women didn't need that inner garment so theirs was different. I would suppose it was created with breast feeding in mind. So my point is I'm very sure there was a big difference in appearance and no one had to guess whether it was a man's or woman's garment.
As culture and demands changed in society so did garments. Pants made it easier for men to work in labor intensive jobs. Women didn't do that for the most part and their dress took on a more feminine appearance. Men labored, women stayed home and cared for the home and children.
As women entered into more labor intensive jobs they needed the pants too.
But if you are not in a job that requires you to do labor intensive work, are pants then necessary?
Yesterday as I was out and about I took notice of the women wearing pants. This was my observation. All I noticed was touchases. And most were not attractive. My eyes fell on the area that pants accentuate. Not a pretty picture.

 

[Kris10leigh]

My goodness woman you are opening up a whole new tangent for people to run with now!!! Better start a new thread fast.

Yeah, well. I gotta be me.

 

[Heber]

I must come to America and see all these women in pants - do they wear them inside, like men, or outside of their trousers?

and I want know this: When I wash a pure new wool jumper in warm water it tends to shrink... so why don't the sheep shrink when it rains in the summer?

 

[GeratTzedek]

Let's sort out the three issues:

1. MODESTY: Has most to do with being courteous to the opposite sex and not sending them mixed signals as to sexual availability. Even in cultures where they don't wear a stitch of clothing, if one doesn't have the proper tatoo, it sends the signal that one is a harlot. What is going on in OUR culture is that men and women are sending mixed signals, confused signals, and are actually being TAUGHT to send mixed signals, to show signs that they are sexually available when in fact they are not available to all men or all women.

2. CROSS DRESSING: What is "man's attire" and "woman's attire" is CERTAINLY culturally determined. In some cultures men wear robes or kilts rather than pants, and visa versa. However, in all cultures, men wear DIFFERENT clothing than women. What is forbidden is the swap, or to try to develop a "unisex" line of clothing so that men and women appear androgenous. So technically, modesty issues aside, a pair of girly pants with embroidered flowers would NOT violate cross-dressing, since it would NEVER be confused with men's attire.

3. Shaatnez (mixing of wool and linen): this should not even be on this thread as it is a totally different subject. My short answer, without going into detail is that it is part of a Jew's relationship with G-d. Because is it not in any way part of man's relationship with fellow man, there is no argument to be made for a gentile to observe Shaatnez. (I realize that there are those in this forum who disagree because they do not make any distinction between Jews and gentiles. I'll have to follow up this post with a question thread about crossing dressing and no male nor female...)

 

[Kris10leigh]

I must come to America and see all these women in pants - do they wear them inside, like men, or outside of their trousers?

and I want know this: When I wash a pure new wool jumper in warm water it tends to shrink... so why don't the sheep shrink when it rains in the summer?

We live right behind a sheep farm and I've asked my kids this same question! They just roll their eyes at me.

 

[Kris10leigh]

Let's sort out the three issues:

1. MODESTY: Has most to do with being courteous to the opposite sex and not sending them mixed signals as to sexual availability. Even in cultures where they don't wear a stitch of clothing, if one doesn't have the proper tatoo, it sends the signal that one is a harlot. What is going on in OUR culture is that men and women are sending mixed signals, confused signals, and are actually being TAUGHT to send mixed signals, to show signs that they are sexually available when in fact they are not available to all men or all women.

Excellent points. Considering this culture dresses little girls in French maid costumes for Halloween, I'd say we are definitely sending wrong messages!

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

I think when the scripture was written everyone wore a robe...there were men's robes and women's robes. Each had their own style.

The same is with pants. There are women's pants and men's pants. Plus, also, I think the scripture was pertaining to men or women wearing the opposite sex's clothes so as to be mistooken as being the opposite sex. I could be wrong though.

I like skirts and dresses ok, but in my job I'm not allowed to wear them. They are viewed as a possible hinderance to driving.

 

[Nooj]

What is forbidden is the swap, or to try to develop a "unisex" line of clothing so that men and women appear androgenous.

Hm...how then, would shirts be classified? Certainly, it is a 'unisex' line of clothing that both women and men wear. Should we do away with that?

So technically, modesty issues aside, a pair of girly pants with embroidered flowers would NOT violate cross-dressing, since it would NEVER be confused with men's attire.

Again, we only consider embroidered flowers as girly because we're taught that way in our Western culture. So this law seems to be highly dependant on what culture you belong to.

I wonder if you could clear something up for me. If my culture said skirts belonged to men, then I would be allowed to wear them Biblically. But if I moved to another country where skirts belonged to women, how would the Biblical law be applied? Whose cultural norms do I follow?

3. Shaatnez (mixing of wool and linen): this should not even be on this thread as it is a totally different subject. My short answer, without going into detail is that it is part of a Jew's relationship with G-d. Because is it not in any way part of man's relationship with fellow man, there is no argument to be made for a gentile to observe Shaatnez. (I realize that there are those in this forum who disagree because they do not make any distinction between Jews and gentiles. I'll have to follow up this post with a question thread about crossing dressing and no male nor female...)

I cited the law against mixing of different cloth fabrics because it's a good example of what I think many of these mitzvot are about. It's all about separation, segregating the profane from the holy and yes, making a distinction between the genders.

That, and I wanted to know if people took other Biblical laws as seriously as they did modesty laws.

 

[Kris10leigh]

Hm...how then, would shirts be classified? Certainly, it is a 'unisex' line of clothing that both women and men wear. Should we do away with that?

Nooj, I don't know what Ger would say, but here's what I think:

None of us are saying anyone should do away with anything. Not one of us here is handing out a law that all women must follow. I want to make that point clear.

Beyond that, a woman's entire outfit should distinguish her from a man. A "shirt" is a generic term to mean a wide variety of things. In the 80's, men's and women's shirt were indistinguishable. Today, most women's shirts have darts and such to better flatter the woman's shape. These are not interchangeable.

Again, we only consider embroidered flowers as girly because we're taught that way in our Western culture. So this law seems to be highly dependant on what culture you belong to.

Agreed

I wonder if you could clear something up for me. If my culture said skirts belonged to men, then I would be allowed to wear them Biblically. But if I moved to another country where skirts belonged to women, how would the Biblical law be applied? Whose cultural norms do I follow?

Good question. I would say it would probably have to be a good mix of both. For instance, it is part of the Mexican culture that women can wear plunging neck lines, but their skirts must fall below the knee. Showing the knee for them is as bad as the breasts for Americans. So if I moved to Mexico, to be modest, I would cover both my knees and my chest. The chest would be for my comfort level and the knees would be out of respect for the Mexicans. The would apply if I moved to Iraq. I'd have to conform to their societal rules.

I cited the law against mixing of different cloth fabrics because it's a good example of what I think many of these mitzvot are about. It's all about separation, segregating the profane from the holy and yes, making a distinction between the genders.

That, and I wanted to know if people took other Biblical laws as seriously as they did modesty laws.

What do you think now? Do we?

 

[Kris10leigh]

I have been wearing skirts now since last Monday and want to make a few observations for the amusement of all.

1. I have had so many compliments, it's insane. It's nice and it makes me feel good...and it makes wonder what people thought before. Men in particular seem to like the way ladies look in skirts.

2. They're so much more comfortable if wearing the proper equipment underneath!!

3. Loose skirts just below the knee are not good in windstorms. :o

4. I personally really like long, ankle length skirts. I tried shorter, because my husband likes shorter. I don't want to look as though I'm going completely off the deep end. But there's a good bit of hippy in me! I love long flowing skirts, a flattering t-shirt and Birkenstock sandals! That's the look I like best.

5. I feel much more feminine! It has actually made me think more before I lash out in anger. I don't know why! But it has. I've been more patient with my boys, more loving in my housework, and more diligent in my Bible studies.

Now who can argue with that?

So whereas I fell short in the conviction to cover my hair, I am really liking the conviction to wear skirts. I feel like less of a flake now.

 

[Sibs]

Tend to think that's a more old testement under the law type thing have not yet come across anything like it in the New Testemant.

 

[fantascey]

i own at least 7 long ankle length skirts. all are different colors. i wear them all the time. i even have some neat looking jean ones. but i don't wear only skirts. it doesn't feel too different to me except they are comfortable; and it isn't like i feel as though it is making me a different person. i just think it is interesting that when i am not wearing a skirt; some people tell me that they don't think they've seen me in pants before. which is sooo strange; i wear them probably equally as much. but what that tells me is that wearing skirts makes you stick out in a crowd and be more noticed! not cool but i deal...(i don't like to be noticed.)

 

[Kris10leigh]

Tend to think that's a more old testement under the law type thing have not yet come across anything like it in the New Testemant.

Right. That's why it's a pretty typical focus of discussion in the Messianic forums.

Welcome to the discussion!

Edited to add:
Welcome to the board, by the way. If you stick around, you'll see that this particular part of the forum focuses on Jesus as He was in the old testament, to put it simply.