Those who never heard?

[MichaelTx]

I'm seeking answers to my sincere questions about Christianity, and thought I'd see how some of the members of this forum answered this question in their journey toward faith:

What about the millions (billions?) of people over the course of history since Jesus' crucifixion who didn't hear about him or have access to a Bible? John 14:6 says no man comes to the father but by Jesus, but many never heard about him, so how could they? Seems like a flaw in the plan that I'm struggling with in my pursuit of faith.

Thanks!

 

[DimEyesOpenHeart]

That's what we are here for. To make sure that everyone on the planet gets to know who Jesus is. It's hard to imagine that anyone born in the last 2k years hasn't heard of Him or even a little of what He did. But there will always be some isolated peoples that don't get a chance and to that I'd have to reply with in God's wisdom he must have accounted for that and we may never know it's part of that old faith and trust thing again.

But you are lucky and have heard of Him and have access to Him so how can we help support you in your struggle today?

Jesus meant that in order to know God the father you have to acknowledge that Jesus His son who came and died for us is His son both human and divine and that he died for your sins and that you accept Jesus as your personal saviour. Then you get access to God the father.

 

[MichaelTx]

That's what we are here for. To make sure that everyone on the planet get's to know who Jesus is. It's hard to imagine that anyone born in the last 2k years hasn't heard of it or even a little of what he did. But there will always be some isolated peoples that don't get a chance and to that I'd have to reply with in God's wisdom he must have accounted for that and we may never know it's part of that old faith and trust thing again.

But you are lucky and have heard of Him and have access to Him so how can we help support you in your struggle today?

Well, you did help by replying, for starters.

I understand that those who heard would be help accountable. My problem is that I don't think there's any question there were millions of people who lived and died (Asia, North America, etc) for centuries after the death of Jesus, but the Bible seems to be very clear and specific that Jesus is the way (the only way), we have all sinned and fallen short, grace is only thru Jesus.

Actually it's a great message, and I love the Christian message of foregiveness and grace. But I haven't been able to find a place where the Bible also says "And for the millions who didn't hear about Jesus, they will receive grace according to different rules." How would someone growing up in Buddhist China have even a chance to accept Jesus when he/she hadn't heard about him.

God is God. Unlimited power and infinite wisdom. So my problem is that it seems like a plan that cannot work for everyone, and a loving and perfect God would not do that, right? If God is perfect and omnipotent, as I believe he would be, there should be an answer for someone who is sincerely searching, right?

Right now the only thing I have is, as you put it, "that old faith and trust thing" and maybe that's the best there is. I'm not giving up, but in order for me to believe it has to make sense. So I continue to try to understand, and am asking those wiser than I.

Thanks for responding and being willing to tackle this hard question(!) even if I don't find my answer today.

Michael

 

[DimEyesOpenHeart]

You're welcome, first off I'd just like to say that some things aren't for us to know and fully understand and when entering into a relationship with Jesus you have to accept and acknowledge that. We are human and flawed so we will never be equal to God in wisdom and in knowledge, thankfully phew what pressure! Also, Jesus says come and follow me, not even King Solomon who was very wise knew everything God knew. My advice would be don't worry what everyone else is doing or where on their path they are or not as the case may be it's out of your control and going in circles will only serve to distract and disqualify you from God's love. So don't get so concerned about what you'll never be able to fully understand it's a well trodden trap we all fall into time and time again, me also, I trip all the time!

On judgement day those who haven't met Jesus in their Earthly life will meet him then and if they accept at that time then they will be saved, if they reject him they will also be rejected. The disciples went all over the place preaching the Gospels including Asia and people travel. Paul might not have set foot on the Americas but brothers and sisters in the faith did and shared the Word. God is capable of amazing things most of which we can't even comprehend there's nothing to say that for those isolated peoples that he hasn't appeared to them when others couldn't we just don't know, we go by faith. If God made Adam from dust and air, he can do anything, including appear to people who have no way of meeting others.

Faith and trust is all we have, We are not God we cannot know, we have to trust he has thought of every eventuality and focus on our own journeys as they are tricky enough without worrying over stuff we have no control over. I don't think you will find anyone with an answer to this it's a wise question only God has the answer for, and maybe He'll tell you when you meet him.

Happy searching!!!

 

[MichaelTx]

You're welcome, first off I'd just like to say that some things aren't for us to know and fully understand and when entering into a relationship with Jesus you have to accept and acknowledge that. We are human and flawed so we will never be equal to God in Wisdom and in knowledge, thankfully phew what pressure! Also, Jesus says come and follow me, don't worry what everyone else is doing or where on their path they are, you follow me. So don't get so concerned about what you'll never be able to fully understand it's a well trodden trap we all fall into time and time again, me also, I trip all the time!

On judgement day those who haven't met Jesus in their Earthly life will meet him then and if they accept at that time then they will be saved, if they reject him they will also be rejected. The disciples went all over the place preaching the Gospels including Asia and people travel, Paul might not have set foot on the America's but brothers and sisters in the faith did and shared the world. God is capable of amazing things most of which we can't even comprehend there's nothing to say that for those isolated peoples that he hasn't appeared to them when others couldn't we just don't know, we go by faith.

Faith and trust is all we have, We are not God we cannot know, we have to trust he has thought of every eventuality and focus on our own journeys as they are tricky enough without worrying over stuff we have no control over. I don't think you will find anyone with an answer to this it's a wise question only God has the answer for, and maybe He'll tell you when you meet him.

Happy searching!!!

That's a thoughtful and considered reply, the kind of response that it seems to me comes from an authentic Christian. I still need to continue searching, just seems to me that God would want me to understand and in his infinite power he could make that happen, but I doubt many people will take the time and effort you did to respond. I'm grateful!

 

[DimEyesOpenHeart]

I am truly humbled thank you so much! I'm glad I could help a little. God gives wisdom to those who seek it. If you pray and continue to study the bible you will receive what your heart desires if it be His will.

 

[St_Worm2]

What about the millions (billions?) of people over the course of history since Jesus' crucifixion who didn't hear about him or have access to a Bible? John 14:6 says no man comes to the father but by Jesus, but many never heard about him, so how could they? Seems like a flaw in the plan that I'm struggling with in my pursuit of faith.

Hi Michael, I see you are new here, so first off, WELCOME TO CF ..

As to your question concerning the way of salvation for those who never hear of the Lord, I think Romans 2 may be helpful. It says:

12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
​

God is just. I can't believe He will base His judgment of men on what they 'don't' know and understand, but rather, on what they do. If that amounts to nothing more than the law that God has written upon each man's heart, then that, according to Romans 2 anyway, appears to be the basis for His judgment of them.

Yours and His,
David

 

[DimEyesOpenHeart]

Right, exactly! God has written on all our hearts, every human has a yearning for Him even when some go for years not being able to put a nane to it. We are never truly satisfied and that's because we aren't one with Him in paradise yet sharing in His glory.

 

[Goonie]

Greetings! Hope you find your answers.

 

[LilShepherdBoy]

Sending you the welcome wagon.

 

[MichaelTx]

Hi Michael, I see you are new here, so first off, WELCOME TO CF ..

As to your question concerning the way of salvation for those who never hear of the Lord, I think Romans 2 may be helpful. It says:

12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
​

God is just. I can't believe He will base His judgment of men on what they 'don't' know and understand, but rather, on what they do. If that amounts to nothing more than the law that God has written upon each man's heart, then that, according to Romans 2 anyway, appears to be the basis for His judgment of them.

Yours and His,
David

David,

Thanks! I was not familiar with that scripture and that definitely impacts (and aids) my understanding. That's where my head has been recently, that possibly the words of God live "within" us, he's in my head, he's that voice that wakes me up at 3am some days with an idea, thought or feeling I didn't have the entire previous day. So your response moved the ball forward for me.

I'm still stuck with my basic concern that the "model" seems flawed, and a perfect God would not have a flawed plan. Aside from the idea that the law may be in our conscience (makes sense to me), the really important message seems to be about how to handle the fact that we all will fall short, and as I understand it the answer to that question is: grace and salvation. And according to the Bible that only comes through Jesus, so for people in remote parts of the world didn't know about him how could they accept him and receive grace, forgiveness, etc plus all the emotional and spiritual benefits that come from that? My conscience should guide me on proper behavior, but given that I'm human and will inevitably screw up (sin), I would need to know the solution. Has to be an answer to this, but I haven't found it yet.

Also, why is this so hard?? For someone actively, honestly, earnestly seeking, why wouldn't God just appear to me (literally), talk to me (literally) and make it easy for me to believe? Why the chess game? Again, if this is what IS, and I genuinely hope it is, then there has to be an answer but I'm struggling. By the way, I do "get" that my capacity to understand would be limited compared to God's just like a fish doesn't understand air because his entire world is water, but God has infinite wisdom so he knows that about me, right? Are we saying God can't figure out a way to make this clear to me? Doubtful.

I know these are really hard questions, I've been reluctant to ask them for years, that's why I'm grateful to anyone who chimes in to aid the discussion. I've even endured a hater or two recently when I ask these questions, but that's OK too if it's in service of finally figuring this out and developing a better relationship with God.

Finally, I haven't done enough private Bible study on my own, so I'm accountable for that and looking for a good Bible study group now. I own responsibility for my struggle, but part of that responsibility seems to be to get out and ask people smarter than I am for help.

Thanks!
Michael

 

[DimEyesOpenHeart]

It is hard sometimes isn't it? We are just such curious creatures. I hope that you find some answers to keep you rooted in Christ and more importantly the peace to let some control of the need of answers go. God does appear to individuals in the past and today and makes himself known but it's always subtle it's never in your face and dramatic as you would expect because that isn't His nature he could easily be like that but that's arrogance and pushy more Satan's style. Open your eyes, ears and heart. You will witness Him and then you'll see Him everywhere. Maybe this concern for isolated peoples not knowing Christ's salvation is God calling you to a missionary vocation.

 

[mmksparbud]

God is just---we pay for our own sins---and what is sin?? To knowingly go against God' wishes.

(1Jn 3:4) Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
(Rom 5:13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.


To those who do not know something is wrong, it is not held against them. You do not have to have heard about Jesus to come through Him. We all have a conscience--it is the Holy Spirit talking to us. Everyone is born into a culture with it's set of rules and we each respond to or reject that little voice that leads our path. God gives to each enough knowledge to be saved or lost by our own choice. If we reject that inner voice telling us when something is right or wrong and choose our own way--then it is sin. A native in a jungle will know what is right and wrong according to what he has been shown. The act that was committed is still a sin before God, but because of his lack of knowledge the blood of Jesus will cover it--Christ already paid the price for everyone--it just needs to be accepted. Those who have never heard his name, nor know of His stated instructions, can still accept that inner voice leading them and be saved---Jesus Himself will fill in the details when they are resurrected into eternity with Him.

 

[DimEyesOpenHeart]

God is just---we pay for our own sins---and what is sin?? To knowingly go against God' wishes.

(1Jn 3:4) Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
(Rom 5:13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.


To those who do not know something is wrong, it is not held against them. You do not have to have heard about Jesus to come through Him. We all have a conscience--it is the Holy Spirit talking to us. Everyone is born into a culture with it's set of rules and we each respond to or reject that little voice that leads our path. God gives to each enough knowledge to be saved or lost by our own choice. If we reject that inner voice telling us when something is right or wrong and choose our own way--then it is sin. A native in a jungle will know what is right and wrong according to what he has been shown. The act that was committed is still a sin before God, but because of his lack of knowledge the blood of Jesus will cover it--Christ already paid the price for everyone--it just needs to be accepted. Those who have never heard his name, nor know of His stated instructions, can still accept that inner voice leading them and be saved---Jesus Himself will fill in the details when they are resurrected into eternity with Him.

That is such a good answer I would 'like' or thumb it up several times if I could.

 

[MichaelTx]

I ran across this video series on YouTube this morning that was helpful to me in my search for answers. I don't know if it will be useful to anyone else (or even seen by anyone ) but thought I'd share it here. The search continues, I continue to have faith that there are answers, I just haven't turned over the right stone or asked my question in the right way yet. But I will...

Here's the video, relates to the likelihood (certainty?) of God/intelligent design. (

)

 

[unno-Dey]

I'm seeking answers to my sincere questions about Christianity, and thought I'd see how some of the members of this forum answered this question in their journey toward faith:

What about the millions (billions?) of people over the course of history since Jesus' crucifixion who didn't hear about him or have access to a Bible? John 14:6 says no man comes to the father but by Jesus, but many never heard about him, so how could they? Seems like a flaw in the plan that I'm struggling with in my pursuit of faith.

Thanks!

Wow, are you me? I have thought the same thing! If I were God, I would give Bibles in all languages to everyone. Also, I would send the Bible like the Bible says God sent the Ten Commandments: on stone tablets, directly from God. I would not let people canonize the Bible either: I would make sure that people have only what the real Bible is, and I would give them everything they need to be certain about it. Or, I would just talk out loud, just to help out the blind people. I would update the Bibles too, so people know how to use Facebook wisely and how to deal with multiculturalism (although the Bible does not seem to like other religions, at least not according to the Old Testament). Anyway, you have exciting and interesting questions that I am curious about too. I hope you find out the answers.
Have a great day,
Unno-dey

 

[unno-Dey]

Also, why is this so hard?? For someone actively, honestly, earnestly seeking, why wouldn't God just appear to me (literally), talk to me (literally) and make it easy for me to believe? Why the chess game?

I only just read this, so I just found out that you have thought about this as well. Again, these are great questions. The fact that there are so few answers is frustrating, to say the least.

 

[MichaelTx]

Wow, are you me? I have thought the same thing! If I were God, I would give Bibles in all languages to everyone. Also, I would send the Bible like the Bible says God sent the Ten Commandments: on stone tablets, directly from God. I would not let people canonize the Bible either: I would make sure that people have only what the real Bible is, and I would give them everything they need to be certain about it. Or, I would just talk out loud, just to help out the blind people. I would update the Bibles too, so people know how to use Facebook wisely and how to deal with multiculturalism (although the Bible does not seem to like other religions, at least not according to the Old Testament). Anyway, you have exciting and interesting questions that I am curious about too. I hope you find out the answers.
Have a great day,
Unno-dey

Yeah, everything you wrote makes sense to me, at least it seems reasonable to wonder why there wasn't a better plan for communicating the message to everyone. And I agree with you, it's frustrating. Still, I also wonder if maybe there are other perfectly legitimate ways to come to know Jesus and accept his teachings, even if we didn't read them from the Bible. Maybe some people meet him in their meditation, they don't realize that feeling of love, foregiveness, kindness, etc is Jesus/God, it's just this feeling that comes to them if they seek it and allow it in? I really don't know, but it seems possible that there might be other ways of looking at this that would answer our questions. Just seems like when sincere people like you and I are honestly seeking answers, even if the questions make people uncomfortable, that eventually we'll figure this thing out.

Good luck in your search too, I've got to believe there's way to make sense of this to our analytical brain eventually.

 

[dpadre]

Philippians 2:10-11New King James Version (NKJV)
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.