This kinda shoots Islam's premise in the foot, doesn't it?

[Xalith]

I requested from you an explanation of (let me spell that out again) why the premise of islam is invalidated by christanity not being mentioned in a specific place and time, in the Quran.

To which you replied, essentially: "Watch this video, which invalidates Islam even better".

I'm not sure which kind of fallacy this is. I reckon it's a mixture of moving the goal posts and throwing up a red herring. But it sure as raspberry jam isn't an answer to my question. And I will not enable you in throwing up a smoke screen.

And I'm still waiting for you to respond on the rest my reply that explains it.

 

[Nithavela]

And I'm still waiting for you to respond on the rest my reply that explains it.

Does the video you posted elaborate on that specific point? Or is it more of a general debunking?

 

[LoveBeingAMuslimah]

The premise of Islam is peace through submission to the will of Allah as revealed by the prophet mohammed.

The current state of Islam is what debunks that premise.

1.) The premise of Islaam is that there is no deity worthy of worship except for Allaah and that the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) is His Messenger.

2.) We don't believe warfare will end just because Islaam is accepted. But Islaam strives to bring justice to society and with justice, there is more peace.

3.) We don't believe any human is sinless, so it follows that even those who submit to the will of Allaah are still going to make mistakes. But as the Prophet said, every son of Adam sins and the best of those who sin are those who repent.

I did not say the Quran does not mention Judaism or Christianity, I/the article said "The Quran makes no mention of Judaism/Christianity existing IN THAT REGION".

Please actually read what is said before commenting.

And? Even if that was true, the narrations of the Prophet talk about the Jews and Christians in that area and his dealings with him. So that alone should shoot this article's premise in the foot.

Furthermore, Allaah says in the Qur'aan about a group of Jews who came to the Prophet seeking a lighter punishment than what was prescribed in their Torah: "[They are] avid listeners to falsehood, devourers of [what is] unlawful. So if they come to you, [O Muhammad], judge between them or turn away from them. And if you turn away from them - never will they harm you at all. And if you judge, judge between them with justice. Indeed, Allah loves those who act justly.

But how is it that they come to you for judgement while they have the Torah, in which is the judgement of Allah ? Then they turn away, [even] after that; but those are not [in fact] believers. (Surah al-Maidah 5:42-43)

Also, take a gander at this (I just found this just now):

Ugh, Sam Shamoun. Here is a website that deals with his "refutations": Refuting Answering Islam

As to your question, perhaps I should have been more specific in my OP. The Koran claims that Muhammad was some sort of "savior" to that region that was "chaos and unrest" when that region was actually rather stable with two established religions already.

The Prophet Muhammad was sent as the final Prophet & Messenger....to all of mankind (as opposed to other Prophets who were sent to specific nations). Can I have the actual verse you're referring to?

If you actually watch the video, you'll see that the Koran affirms both the Torah and the New Testament. Yes, folks, the Koran says the Torah and the New Testament are both "incorruptible words from Allah".

What was revealed to the Prophets Jesus and Moses (peace be upon them) are the Words of Allaah (i.e. they're perfect). But that doesn't mean that what remains in this world today is what was revealed to them. There might be remnants left of what was revealed to them, but even in those cases, the Qur'aan is the final revelation and it takes precedence in terms of the laws to be followed as some rulings were abrogated.

 

[Hieronymus]

You're going to have to explain. Islam's premise is in its name. I just told you what that name means.

It means submission, which is their premise for peace.
When everyone submits to Allah, it will be peace.

See the post above also.

 

[KitKatMatt]

There are religions older than Christianity, so does that shoot Christianity in the foot?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

1.)
What was revealed to the Prophets Jesus and Moses (peace be upon them) are the Words of Allaah (i.e. they're perfect). But that doesn't mean that what remains in this world today is what was revealed to them. There might be remnants left of what was revealed to them, but even in those cases, the Qur'aan is the final revelation and it takes precedence in terms of the laws to be followed as some rulings were abrogated.

What was revealed to all mankind by Jesus Christ (gospel of the Kingdom) takes humanity to the end-time global conflagration and his return in power. What's left to know?

 

[Xalith]

What was revealed to all mankind by Jesus Christ (gospel of the Kingdom) takes humanity to the end-time global conflagration and his return in power. What's left to know?

The part about how to kill people, cut their heads off, sleep with their wives (even if they're still alive and present!), beat your wife if you fear she's rebellious, marrying (and consummating marriage with) pre-pubescent girls, etc etc etc. (/heavy sarcasm)

Seriously. The Koran/Quran appeals to the Bible (both OT and NT) but yet directly conflicts with it on so many points... I'm scratching my head, unable to understand how they can take the Quran seriously.

And, as you said, The New Testament covers the entire period from 4AD clear up to whenever the End takes place. I don't really understand why they felt that it needed added to.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Seriously. The Koran/Quran appeals to the Bible (both OT and NT) but yet directly conflicts with it on so many points... I'm scratching my head, unable to understand how they can take the Quran seriously.

And, as you said, The New Testament covers the entire period from 4AD clear up to whenever the End takes place. I don't really understand why they felt that it needed added to.

Galatians 4:22-31 is quite revealing.

It seems that the Hagarites want to take by force the Abrahamic promises that they believe were unjustly given to Isaac. Of course the average Muslim doesn't know this, but their clerics and scholars must.

 

[LoveBeingAMuslimah]

What was revealed to all mankind by Jesus Christ (gospel of the Kingdom) takes humanity to the end-time global conflagration and his return in power. What's left to know?

I don't think anything was revealed by the Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) to all of mankind. I believe it is God who revealed things and the Prophets relayed these revelations to the people. I don't believe Prophet Jesus was sent to all of mankind though he will return towards the end of time and during his stay here and before his death, everyone will become Muslim and peace will prevail.

Seriously. The Koran/Quran appeals to the Bible (both OT and NT) but yet directly conflicts with it on so many points... I'm scratching my head, unable to understand how they can take the Quran seriously.

Do you not understand that we don't believe the modern day Torah or New Testament to be what was revealed by God? They have been added to and subtracted from by people. That no longer makes them purely the Words of God in our eyes.

 

[Robban]

I don't think anything was revealed by the Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) to all of mankind. I believe it is God who revealed things and the Prophets relayed these revelations to the people. I don't believe Prophet Jesus was sent to all of mankind though he will return towards the end of time and during his stay here and before his death, everyone will become Muslim and peace will prevail.



Do you not understand that we don't believe the modern day Torah or New Testament to be what was revealed by God? They have been added to and subtracted from by people. That no longer makes them purely the Words of God in our eyes.

Make the most of it while you can.

Like all dreams, they come to an end, even these kind of bad dreams.

Even the dreamers eventually wake up,
and their understanding starts to question their emotions.

 

[Xalith]

Do you not understand that we don't believe the modern day Torah or New Testament to be what was revealed by God? They have been added to and subtracted from by people. That no longer makes them purely the Words of God in our eyes.

We have manuscripts from the Dead Sea Scrolls, we have very old manuscripts of the New Testament, and guess what? They are almost identical to what we have today. They've changed very little (assuming you're comparing them to the LXX or KJV, that is. Something like the NIV... yeah, you have a point there).

So, uh, what exactly are you saying is wrong with, say, the KJV? Got any specific verse examples?

And besides... some of the contradictions between the Torah/NT and the Quran are just so far out in left field, such as the part where Muhammad was telling people that it was OK to have intercourse with the wives of conquered people while their husbands were still alive.

I don't care how much you think the Torah/NT changed, both the Torah and the NT heavily condemn adultery of any form. In fact, Jesus in the NT says to even LOOK at someone and desire her is committing adultery.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I don't think anything was revealed by the Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) to all of mankind. I believe it is God who revealed things and the Prophets relayed these revelations to the people. I don't believe Prophet Jesus was sent to all of mankind though he will return towards the end of time and during his stay here and before his death, everyone will become Muslim and peace will prevail.

While Jesus himself was sent "only to the.....house of Israel" he commissioned his disciples to preach (reveal) the kingdom message to all mankind. That message is being preached globally by many ministries as we speak. You have probably even heard of it. It is a message of hope and peace (after the end time wars of course). Islam's 'gospel' seems to be fear and death.

 

[Xalith]

While Jesus himself was sent "only to the.....house of Israel" he commissioned his disciples to preach (reveal) the kingdom message to all mankind. That message is being preached globally by many ministries as we speak. You have probably even heard of it. It is a message of hope and peace (after the end time wars of course). Islam's 'gospel' seems to be fear and death.

The Christian Gospel is very much a "turn away from your sins, accept His plan for your salvation and you have nothing to fear. They can kill you, they can cause you pain, but your soul is safe in Him and everlasting life awaits after your time on Earth is done". And also, that Christ defeated sin and death at the cross by raising back up from the dead three days later.

But of course, Islam denies that (while saying the OT and NT are 'perfect, irrefutable' words of 'Allah').

Then, to reconcile that, they say that our NT isn't the same NT that was written back then (even though we have many manuscripts that say otherwise). You'd think a core concept like Jesus rising from the dead didn't suddenly get added into the NT after the fact, but apparently that's what they say.

I challenge a Muslim to point out one authentic early manuscript of, say, the Gospel of John that disagrees with the Gospel of John found in the KJV. John was very, very, very heavy on the deity of Christ, because it is so important. If someone doesn't believe in the deity of Christ... there's no hope for them whatsoever.

It doesn't matter what kind of prayers you say, how much you try to avoid sin, if you don't believe in the deity of Christ, then the truth is not in you, and His work on the Cross means nothing to you.

(note: All 'yous' are hypothetical and aimed at no one in particular)

 

[Archivist]

The part about how to kill people, cut their heads off, sleep with their wives (even if they're still alive and present!), beat your wife if you fear she's rebellious, marrying (and consummating marriage with) pre-pubescent girls, etc etc etc.

And of course Christians have never done any of these things. Unfortunately we Christians have our own ugly past. What those on the Muslim extreme--which represents only a small percentage of all Muslims--are doing today, we were doing just a few hundred years ago. Remember, the last person officially executed for witchcraft in western Europe was Anna Goeldi; she was beheaded in 1782. As late as 1661 Puritans in Massachusetts Bay were beating and executing Quaker missionaries. This is not ancient history. Sadly, spousal abuse, incest, etc. continue today in Christian nations.

BTW, this is not an attack on Christanity (notice the Christian symbol). However it is part of our past--as Lincoln said "we cannot escape history."

 

[Xalith]

And of course Christians have never done any of these things. Unfortunately we Christians have our own ugly past. What those on the Muslim extreme--which represents only a small percentage of all Muslims--are doing today, we were doing just a few hundred years ago. Remember, the last person officially executed for witchcraft in western Europe was Anna Goeldi, was beheaded in 1782. As late as 1661 Puritans in Massachusetts Bay were beating and executing Quaker missionaries. This is not ancient history. Sadly, spousal abuse, incest, etc. continue today in Christian nations.

 

[Archivist]

I didn't mention the Crusades, and this doesn't address the issues that I raised--the witchcraft trials and the persecution of other Christian denominations.

 

[Landon Caeli]

And of course Christians have never done any of these things. Unfortunately we Christians have our own ugly past. What those on the Muslim extreme--which represents only a small percentage of all Muslims--are doing today, we were doing just a few hundred years ago. Remember, the last person officially executed for witchcraft in western Europe was Anna Goeldi; she was beheaded in 1782. As late as 1661 Puritans in Massachusetts Bay were beating and executing Quaker missionaries. This is not ancient history. Sadly, spousal abuse, incest, etc. continue today in Christian nations.

BTW, this is not an attack on Christanity (notice the Christian symbol). However it is part of our past--as Lincoln said "we cannot escape history."

Islam being 'newer' is no excuse for the barbarism. All human life is the same age and Mohammed was a warrior. Christ was selfless.

 

[Archivist]

Islam being 'newer' is no excuse for the barbarism. All human life is the same age and Mohammed was a warrior. Christ was selfless.

I never said it was an excuse. I just pointed out that our Christian past is also bloody.