This Impostor that we call a Church

[xXMikHaelXx]

Modern vs. Original​

We as Christians put a lot of weight into attending Church at least once a week but have we forgotten what the Church was originally supposed to be? It is in my humble opinion that the current Church more resembles the Jewish synagogues, where people go to hear the word on a regular basis and tithe but it doesn't look much like the first Christian Church. Are we regressing to the same mindsets and customs that were in effect before Christ? If we are regressing and not progressing then are we really on the right track?

They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. Everyone was filled with awe at the many wonders and signs performed by the apostles. All the believers were together and had everything in common. They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need. Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved. - Acts 2: 42-47

All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of their possessions was their own, but they shared everything they had. With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And God’s grace was so powerfully at work in them all that there were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned land or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales and put it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to anyone who had need. - Acts 4: 32-35

During the time of Paul there were many Jews that took to trying to convert new Christians to Judaism. Paul opposed them but after Paul did their efforts finally pay off?

Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

You were running a good race. Who cut in on you to keep you from obeying the truth? That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you. “A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough.” I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view. The one who is throwing you into confusion, whoever that may be, will have to pay the penalty. Brothers and sisters, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!
- Galatians 5: 2-12

So has Christianity actually become a modern form of Judaism? I think it has, Church buildings are our synagogues where we go to listen to scripture. We even strive to save ourselves by following the same law. What was know as the Church is non-existent and it seems that we are either happy where we are or too ill-informed to understand where we are.

I'm open for debate though - if you can provide examples of how we are different from the very religion that Jesus opposed and was crucified for doing so.

 

[Grafted In]

xXMikHaelXx, I really do hear your words. My opinions are very similar to yours. A believer I used to work with was always trying to get me to come and worship with him at the church he had chosen. One day he said that they were having a revival meeting that would (If I recall correctly) continue for a number of days. He was very excited, anyway. I responded by telling him that, in my opinion, he would not see revival in the U.S until the government began bulldozing down church buildings. There seems to be at least one on every block of streets in the city. He was very offended by that and I said to him that I have a feeling that the faith of believers in countries where church services are illegal would scare us to death.

 

[xXMikHaelXx]

xXMikHaelXx, I really do hear your words. My opinions are very similar to yours. A believer I used to work with was always trying to get me to come and worship with him at the church he had chosen. One day he said that they were having a revival meeting that would (If I recall correctly) continue for a number of days. He was very excited, anyway. I responded by telling him that, in my opinion, he would not see revival in the U.S until the government began bulldozing down church buildings. There seems to be at least one on every block of streets in the city. He was very offended by that and I said to him that I have a feeling that the faith of believers in countries where church services are illegal would scare us to death.

Exactly - I think the closest thing we have to real Churches today are homeless shelters and outreach groups.

 

[timewerx]

Jesus warned us against false teachers. His words imply there will be a lot more false teachers than genuine ones.

It seems the church listened to the false teachers...

...False teachers don't necessarily stand on pulpits. They can be anyone we learn things from. They could be your neighbor, celebrities (on TV especially), your boss, your best friend(except pets), politicians, motivational speakers, school teachers, pastors, etc.

Could the things you're learning from other people are abominable things to God? Most likely it is!

Luke 16:15
He said to them, “You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of others, but God knows your hearts. What people value highly is detestable in God’s sight.

Could the things we are learning from people who have no utter reverence of God's Words are evil? Absolutely!

John 7:7
The world cannot hate you, but it hates Me because I testify of it that its works are evil.

1 John 5:19
We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.

If Christianity collectively and individually would evaluate themselves, how many things/ways we believe and practice are in common with the ways of the world, with people who do not revere the Words of God?

 

[David Sylvian]

Thanks for the post, here's my thing about this:

There are a lot of Christians in free nations, and quite a few in non-free nations. A large number of them do not even go to these churches. This is 2000 years later. This is not ancient Rome. This is not the Middle Ages. Christian symbolism is all over the modern world.

You go to these churches and people huddle together acting like "everyone out there is evil". No, most of them are actually Christian.

You watch shows, listen to music... they are full of Christian themes. Popular music. Popular shows. Christian symbolism all over the place.

Then you go into these churches and what are you taught? What do you even need to be taught? Are you taught the teachings of Jesus? What I find is you are taught just about anything but the teachings of Jesus.

You do usually find yourself in a legalistic modern version of the old synagogue. You have said it well.

It imprisons people.

It teaches them to be unmerciful in judgment in others. It teaches them to judge by appearances. While they would not recognize these statements they are twin pillars of the teachings of Christ.

 

[Der Alte]

Thanks for the post, here's my thing about this:

There are a lot of Christians in free nations, and quite a few in non-free nations. A large number of them do not even go to these churches. This is 2000 years later. This is not ancient Rome. This is not the Middle Ages. Christian symbolism is all over the modern world.

You go to these churches and people huddle together acting like "everyone out there is evil". No, most of them are actually Christian.

You watch shows, listen to music... they are full of Christian themes. Popular music. Popular shows. Christian symbolism all over the place.

Then you go into these churches and what are you taught? What do you even need to be taught? Are you taught the teachings of Jesus? What I find is you are taught just about anything but the teachings of Jesus.

You do usually find yourself in a legalistic modern version of the old synagogue. You have said it well.

It imprisons people.

It teaches them to be unmerciful in judgment in others. It teaches them to judge by appearances. While they would not recognize these statements they are twin pillars of the teachings of Christ.

NONSENSE!

 

[xXMikHaelXx]

Thanks for the post, here's my thing about this:

There are a lot of Christians in free nations, and quite a few in non-free nations. A large number of them do not even go to these churches. This is 2000 years later. This is not ancient Rome. This is not the Middle Ages. Christian symbolism is all over the modern world.

You go to these churches and people huddle together acting like "everyone out there is evil". No, most of them are actually Christian.

You watch shows, listen to music... they are full of Christian themes. Popular music. Popular shows. Christian symbolism all over the place.

Then you go into these churches and what are you taught? What do you even need to be taught? Are you taught the teachings of Jesus? What I find is you are taught just about anything but the teachings of Jesus.

You do usually find yourself in a legalistic modern version of the old synagogue. You have said it well.

It imprisons people.

It teaches them to be unmerciful in judgment in others. It teaches them to judge by appearances. While they would not recognize these statements they are twin pillars of the teachings of Christ.

Yes, the legalism is certainly there - coupled with a heavy dose of false teachings and nonsensical doctrine but the love is pretty much missing.

I agree with what you said about finding Christian values throughout the world and its media. I've found a number of songs, books, movies, tv shows, etc. that offer better teachings than most pastors behind the pulpit.

 

[Phantasman]

Exactly - I think the closest thing we have to real Churches today are homeless shelters and outreach groups.

You have the right idea. The Rotherham Bible doesn't translate the Greek word to "church" or "churches", but rather to "assemblies", a gathering of people.

One thing I admire about Jehovah's Witnesses is that they have many home like structures placed in many locations, called "halls". Their thinking is that people should be in smaller groups, not travel as far, and if a structure is not able to house it's assembly for some reason, they don't have far to go to be with another assembly. No fancy steeples, no tithe plates, etc.

The church has made itself authoritative. It claims God created it. Like you, I don't see it. But it does have enough of God in it, for people to learn, and understand for themselves, if they so desire.

 

[MormonFriend]

Modern vs. Original​

We as Christians put a lot of weight into attending Church at least once a week but have we forgotten what the Church was originally supposed to be? It is in my humble opinion that the current Church more resembles the Jewish synagogues, where people go to hear the word on a regular basis and tithe but it doesn't look much like the first Christian Church. Are we regressing to the same mindsets and customs that were in effect before Christ? If we are regressing and not progressing then are we really on the right track?

They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. Everyone was filled with awe at the many wonders and signs performed by the apostles. All the believers were together and had everything in common. They sold property and possessions to give to anyone who had need. Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved. - Acts 2: 42-47

All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of their possessions was their own, but they shared everything they had. With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And God’s grace was so powerfully at work in them all that there were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned land or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales and put it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to anyone who had need. - Acts 4: 32-35

During the time of Paul there were many Jews that took to trying to convert new Christians to Judaism. Paul opposed them but after Paul did their efforts finally pay off?

Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

You were running a good race. Who cut in on you to keep you from obeying the truth? That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you. “A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough.” I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view. The one who is throwing you into confusion, whoever that may be, will have to pay the penalty. Brothers and sisters, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!
- Galatians 5: 2-12

So has Christianity actually become a modern form of Judaism? I think it has, Church buildings are our synagogues where we go to listen to scripture. We even strive to save ourselves by following the same law. What was know as the Church is non-existent and it seems that we are either happy where we are or too ill-informed to understand where we are.

I'm open for debate though - if you can provide examples of how we are different from the very religion that Jesus opposed and was crucified for doing so.

How could the church not regress without apostles! That is the foundation upon which Jesus built His Church. Understanding the things of God is only possible by the Spirit, and that comes to seekers and followers, as Isaiah put it, line upon line and precept upon precept. Until the new followers learned to understand by this new (to them) method, they could rely on the ordained ministers to teach, and especially correct them. When the apostles were killed, men started reusing the old method of understanding the things of God, which was and is by the spirit of men. And it continued even after the noble efforts of the Reformers.

The evidence of this is so clear in that divisions (which the apostles expressly denounced) over how scriptures are to be understood, has created exponential denominations. If they all listened, heard, and followed the One Spirit, the first division would never have occured.

The Church indeed is not the buildings, but the Spirit within the believers. But having buildings is good if the tenets are of one heart, and serve one another, and not caught up in their possessions and apparel. And there will be some, expectedly, that may be overcoming that sin or weakness, or many orher vices. Hence, forgiveness must also be threads of the tapestry that makes up the Church, if we ourselves would be forgiven.

 

[drstevej]

The evidence of this is so clear in that divisions (which the apostles expressly denounced) over how scriptures are to be understood, has created exponential denominations. If they all listened, heard, and followed the One Spirit, the first division would never have occured.

List of sects in the Latter Day Saint movement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://www.religionfacts.com/mormonism/denominations.htm

 

[Albion]

Yes, the legalism is certainly there - coupled with a heavy dose of false teachings and nonsensical doctrine but the love is pretty much missing.

I agree with what you said about finding Christian values throughout the world and its media. I've found a number of songs, books, movies, tv shows, etc. that offer better teachings than most pastors behind the pulpit.

I find this to be nothing but silly. There are countless churches where the congregation is brimming with love and concern; and there are many outstanding preachers of the Gospel. Of course, there are also some of each which lean the other way. It appears you are dedicated to griping about them rather than in locating the good ones and becoming involved with them.

 

[Albion]

How could the church not regress without apostles! That is the foundation upon which Jesus built His Church.

Apparently you feel that if it takes carpenters to build a house, they have to move in when it's done and remain there or else the house won't continue to stand. I can't agree.

 

[MormonFriend]

The evidence of this is so clear in that divisions (which the apostles expressly denounced) over how scriptures are to be understood, has created exponential denominations. If they all listened, heard, and followed the One Spirit, the first division would never have occured.

List of sects in the Latter Day Saint movement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Mormon Denominations and Sects - ReligionFacts

What has this to do with th OP?

 

[xXMikHaelXx]

I find this to be nothing but silly. There are countless churches where the congregation is brimming with love and concern; and there are many outstanding preachers of the Gospel. Of course, there are also some of each which lean the other way. It appears you are dedicated to griping about them rather than in locating the good ones and becoming involved with them.

Because obviously you know me well enough to make that assumption - please tell me more about myself because my knowledge on that subject appears to be lacking.

 

[Albion]

Because obviously you know me well enough to make that assumption .

That's the way your post reads. If it's not an accurate overview of your views, don't blame me.

 

[MormonFriend]

Apparently you feel that if it takes carpenters to build a house, they have to move in when it's done and remain there or else the house won't continue to stand. I can't agree.

You broke up my full post and addressed only the portion out of context of the full. I explained why apostles are always needed. It was not the apostles that built the Church, it was Jesus Himself. He placed apostles as the foundation, so yes, if the foundation is removed, the house won't stand.

 

[drstevej]

You broke up my full post and addressed only the portion out of context of the full. I explained why apostles are always needed. It was not the apostles that built the Church, it was Jesus Himself. He placed apostles as the foundation, so yes, if the foundation is removed, the house won't stand.

The foundation does not go all the way to the roof. And replacing the biblical Apostles with LDS later-day substitutes makes the house dangerous to inhabit.

APOSTLES

===================

D-I-Y "apostles"

 

[MormonFriend]

The foundation does not go all the way to the roof. ...

Are you suggesting that the foundation does not ultimately support the roof?

...And replacing the biblical Apostles with LDS later-day substitutes makes the house dangerous to inhabit.

This is off topic. Please stay with the OP.

If apostles were not meant to continue, why were new apostles called and anointed by the remaining apostles, to fill vacancies?

 

[drstevej]

Are you suggesting that the foundation does not ultimately support the roof?

No, read my words.

If apostles were not meant to continue, why were new apostles called and anointed by the remaining apostles, to fill vacancies?

This is off topic too. Please stay with the OP.

 

[drstevej]

You broke up my full post and addressed only the portion out of context of the full. I explained why apostles are always needed. It was not the apostles that built the Church, it was Jesus Himself. He placed apostles as the foundation, so yes, if the foundation is removed, the house won't stand.

And replacing the biblical Apostles with LDS later-day substitutes makes the house dangerous to inhabit.

My post is parallel to yours so, who is off topic?