Theistic Non-Conservatives, What's Worse: Atheists or Conservatives?

What's worse

  • Angry atheists

  • Hell-thumping conservatives


Results are only viewable after voting.

katautumn

Prodigal Daughter
May 14, 2015
7,498
157
43
Atlanta, GA
✟24,189.00
Country
United States
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
And what are you basing that on? He's the President of a secular country with many religions. He cannot only stand for Christians. You have no clue what his personal life dictates about his beliefs.

I know that a person can lead a nation from a secular standpoint while still shining the light of Jesus, and I can't recall a president in my lifetime that has done that truly. I also know the church our president sat in for years. How can you sit under a pastor who routinely talks down America, talks down the Scriptures, etc. and effectively lead a country as a united front? Obama can say he's a Christian all day long. Only a fool would admit otherwise, even in today's society. I don't believe he's a Muslim either, though. I'd say he probably falls more in line with the secular humanist mindset.
 
Upvote 0

Dave Ellis

Contributor
Dec 27, 2011
8,933
821
Toronto, Ontario
✟52,315.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
CA-Conservatives
I disagree. Everything you say, do and think is coloured by your biases. Everything you read has been shaped by other people's biases.

If you focus on teaching what people believe, rather than commenting on what you think about those beliefs, you can easily remove bias from the picture.

Yes you are! You are teaching your kid about religion as if its an academic lecture, not a spiritual experience.

If you really want to "teach" your kid about different religion, rather than just having conversations with them about it on an academic level regarding the history of the religion and the basic tenets, you need to fully immerse yourself in the culture associated with that religion and have them fully experience it by taking them to the Sikh temple and the Jewish synagogue and the Christian church and the Buddhist monastery; Enroll them in a TM Meditation class and spiritual yoga. I actually think that would be pretty cool for the child to experience except they would probably be bored and would rather play with their friends or something :p

I can just hear the kid complaining to his friends, "Ugh, my dad is dragging me out to this stupid church/temple/synagogue again. He's so lame, why can't I have a cool dad?"

If my kid had an interest in learning about this stuff, I'd be happy to take them to see various types of religion in action. Of course, I also have no interest in forcing any of this down their throat either!

My basic philosophy when it comes time to start raising kids is not to teach them what to think, instead it's best to teach them how to think. Give them the tools they need to work through problems logically, and to examine info and make decisions based on it.

Inevitably, they will see some things differently than I do, and that's how it should be. As long as they have the tools to make good decisions and not be taken advantage of in their life, they already have a big advantage over others.

I think if a kid was only ever shown religion and spirituality on an academic level, they would be far less inclined to become religious or spiritual because of the bias they inherited from their parents. Perhaps we can agree to disagree here.

If you took your kid to a Buddhist temple, or a synagogue, you probably wouldn't consider it a "spiritual experience" either, at least not in the same strain as going to a Christian Church. It'd be a time to gain an understanding of different views, and perhaps hear why you should accept the views of the people there as true.

In fact, I'd argue the "spiritual experience" in itself is the bias an objective person would strive to avoid. If you remove childhood indoctrination from the picture, it is far, far more unlikely that an adult neutral observer would walk into a church for the first time and find anything spiritual about it. To be honest, a lot of the spiritual experience I've seen in churches is just plain weird.

If the religion is true, then it should be true on it's own merits without having to appeal to emotion, which is all the spiritual experience is. If the facts back up what the religion is preaching, then the spiritual side is bound to follow eventually.

"Evidence" relies on human interpretation...which is influenced by bias. People will naturally reject or be more skeptical towards "evidence" that is contrary to their preconceived biases versus "evidence" that confirms their preconceived biases.

Completely wrong, evidence by definition is objective.

You are correct that people sometimes misread or examine the evidence poorly, but that doesn't affect the evidence itself. The evidence is what it is, regardless of what we think about it. That's why it's wise to gather as much evidence as possible and follow wherever it leads. This will help paint a clearer picture and limit the opportunities for mistakes.

I'm not sure I agree with Ralph's quote. Our interpretation of the myth can change, but the myth can still hold important lessons. I think literalism and inerrancy is a passing fad of modern evangelism and has not been the norm amongst academics or scholars. Allegorical interpretations of the Bible have been around since before the Bible existed. Philo of Alexandria interpreted much of the Jewish scriptures as allegory years before Jesus was born.

Ralph was not referring to Christianity specifically, he was referring to all religion. Once upon a time the Babylonian Gods, or Greek, Roman, Norse, Egyptian Gods, etc were worshipped as the Gods of modern religions are worshipped today. They all spent centuries, or millennia being taken seriously as religious figures

Nowadays, they have been relegated to the status of myths and stories. His point is, perhaps a few centuries in the future, Yahweh might be taken about as seriously as Wotan, Zeus or Jupiter are today.

Hinduism is a great example of a religion where almost all adherents recognize the non-literalism and mythic nature of their spiritual texts but still garners important spiritual lessons from the words. And this is the oldest semi-organized religion in the world where the holy texts of that culture have never reverted to "literary entertainment". Its also a reason why "Hindu fundamentalism" turns up almost nothing in Google except for the teachings of Wendy Doniger who was ironically raised as a Jew in New York City and now pushes for literalism in Hindu teachings...

On the contrary, if I were to read Hindu Scripture today, it would be for literary entertainment. Eventually if Hinduism fades out as a widely practised religion, it will suffer the same fate the religion of Ancient Greece did.

As much as atheists try to deny it, atheism does come with its set of general and over-arching views about the universe and how it operates and I'm not sure why atheists so strongly oppose this claim. Some of them ironically oppose it with such strong religious fervour. Most atheists are materialists and naturalists. Those are philosophies and worldviews and lead to biases that you pass on to your children knowingly or unknowingly.

I'm not saying all atheists are the same, nor am I saying they are bound by some doctrine. I'm saying that there is a "norm" worldview which most atheists fall into. Its not a bad thing but I think its important to know that you are going to naturally give biases to your children.

All Atheism denotes is a lack of belief in the existence of a God, nothing more. In fact, you can't really reach any other belief based solely on that. It may factor in on some beliefs, but nothing that is a direct result of that sole belief.

For example, many Buddhists are Atheists. They have an amazingly different view of the workings of the universe than I do. Scientologists are technically Atheists because there is no God in their religion either. As are Raelians, and any number of people with completely whacked out views about the universe in which we live, that don't happen to believe in a God.

The type of Atheist, which you seem to be referring to (i.e. me), is not biased due to their atheism, they are biased due to their skepticism. Most atheists that you'll see arguing on forums like this are of the skeptical type, and normally identify as secular humanists.

And that's a bias, then sign me up. I am strongly biased against believing things to be true that can't be demonstrated to be true.

Keep in mind, that's not an assertion those things are false, it's just an awareness they have not met their burden of proof and that accepting them at this point is not yet justified.

I don't think I am privy to any evidence that both of us can't have. We just interpret the evidence differently.

If Jesus himself appeared in your living room one night and proved himself to you, that would be evidence you have that I am not privy to. Now of course, that's an extreme example, but the point is personal experience in general is only evidence for the person experiencing it. So, there may be some bona-fide evidence you have that am not privy to. Therefore it may leave you with a justifiable belief, but I would not be justified in believing it unless I was there too.

Now of course, you'd also want to somehow verify you weren't dreaming or hallucinating, or otherwise making up this personal experience in your own head, which can be tough. But one would assume if God wanted to prove himself, he could do so in a way in which it was absolutely undeniable it was him.

You look up at the night sky and think, "Wow, this universe is so amazing, I can't believe it all came about by chance and how lucky I am to be here staring up at this sky! I am in such awe of this existence!"

I look up at the night sky and think, "Wow, this universe is so amazing, God is so insane to have created such a marvellous place. How lucky I am to be here staring up at this sky! I am in such awe of God!"

We're both looking at the same sky. And you can think I'm crazy and deluded if you want :p

I don't think you're crazy, I just think you're wrong. There's a big difference to that.
 
Upvote 0

Dave Ellis

Contributor
Dec 27, 2011
8,933
821
Toronto, Ontario
✟52,315.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
CA-Conservatives
Nonsense, I am sorry, but pure nonsense. You could possibly make that argument for someone as part of the majority (or once was a majority) like Catholics in America, Evangelical Christianity or Islam in the Middle East, but atheists go after the Dalai Lama, liberal Christianity, members of the Baha'i Faith and so on. They don't want to listen to anything that explores the possibility of God/theology, but still want to appear "tolerant" and excuse attacks for "fair challenges." It creates nothing but hostility and strife and does absolutely nothing to make the world a better place.


Nonsense, if people are devoting their lives to what are ultimately false beliefs, you are doing the world a great thing by arguing against those beliefs. The end result will be a more rational and less superstitious society, which at least in my opinion is a much better world to live in.

Of course radical Islam is a far greater threat to society than the Dalai Lama is, and the Dalai Lama has some positive attributes... but ultimately he presides over a belief system which promotes falsehoods.

He can still be a great man without the baggage of the belief system. That would be the ideal we strive for.
 
Upvote 0

LOVEthroughINTELLECT

The courage to be human
Jul 30, 2005
7,825
403
✟25,873.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
In What's It All About?: Philosophy and the Meaning of Life Julian Baggini, an atheist, states that faith in the transcendental is neither rational nor irrational--neither according to reason or against reason. On the contrary, faith sidesteps rationality/reason.

All of this quarreling over how to indoctrinate or avoid indoctrinating one's children with respect to "religion" gets tiresome. If Baggini is right, it is all beside the point.

Faith presents problems, Baggini shows, with respect to the topic of his book: how to find meaning / live a life of purpose. However, if I am understanding Baggini correctly, all of this heat-and-no-light over "evidence", "false beliefs", etc. is fallacious--faith, by definition, sidesteps all of that.
 
Upvote 0

Eudaimonist

I believe in life before death!
Jan 1, 2003
27,482
2,733
57
American resident of Sweden
Visit site
✟119,206.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Libertarian
In What's It All About?: Philosophy and the Meaning of Life Julian Baggini, an atheist, states that faith in the transcendental is neither rational nor irrational--neither according to reason or against reason. On the contrary, faith sidesteps rationality/reason.

What does it matter that Julian Baggini is an atheist? We may disagree with him.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
Upvote 0

Dave Ellis

Contributor
Dec 27, 2011
8,933
821
Toronto, Ontario
✟52,315.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
CA-Conservatives
In What's It All About?: Philosophy and the Meaning of Life Julian Baggini, an atheist, states that faith in the transcendental is neither rational nor irrational--neither according to reason or against reason. On the contrary, faith sidesteps rationality/reason.

All of this quarreling over how to indoctrinate or avoid indoctrinating one's children with respect to "religion" gets tiresome. If Baggini is right, it is all beside the point.

Faith presents problems, Baggini shows, with respect to the topic of his book: how to find meaning / live a life of purpose. However, if I am understanding Baggini correctly, all of this heat-and-no-light over "evidence", "false beliefs", etc. is fallacious--faith, by definition, sidesteps all of that.


And I'd argue his point is nonsense... a belief is either rational, or it is not rational. If you have good justifiable reasons for holding your belief, then you are acting rationally. If you do not have those reasons, then you are believing irrationally.

You can't "sidestep" rational/irrational behaviour, it's binary proposition. If you're sidestepping being rational, then you are not being rational.
 
Upvote 0

LOVEthroughINTELLECT

The courage to be human
Jul 30, 2005
7,825
403
✟25,873.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
What does it matter that Julian Baggini is an atheist? We may disagree with him.


eudaimonia,

Mark




It doesn't matter. It shows that truth/reality does not depend on if the speaker is theistic or atheistic.
 
Upvote 0

LOVEthroughINTELLECT

The courage to be human
Jul 30, 2005
7,825
403
✟25,873.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
And I'd argue his point is nonsense... a belief is either rational, or it is not rational. If you have good justifiable reasons for holding your belief, then you are acting rationally. If you do not have those reasons, then you are believing irrationally...




When I consult dictionaries for definitions of rational and irrational I do not see anything about "good" reasons (or "bad" reasons) or "justifiable" reasons (or non-"justifiable" reasons). I only see things to the effect of with or without reason/logic.





You can't "sidestep" rational/irrational behaviour, it's binary proposition. If you're sidestepping being rational, then you are not being rational.




On one hand you say that one cannot sidestep B, but on the other hand you say, "If you're sidestepping...". :scratch:

Reading this thread feels like going in circles.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

LOVEthroughINTELLECT

The courage to be human
Jul 30, 2005
7,825
403
✟25,873.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Nonsense, if people are devoting their lives to what are ultimately false beliefs, you are doing the world a great thing by arguing against those beliefs. The end result will be a more rational and less superstitious society, which at least in my opinion is a much better world to live in.

Of course radical Islam is a far greater threat to society than the Dalai Lama is, and the Dalai Lama has some positive attributes... but ultimately he presides over a belief system which promotes falsehoods.

He can still be a great man without the baggage of the belief system. That would be the ideal we strive for.




I can think of plenty of false beliefs that people devote their lives to that have nothing to do with theism. Nationalism is a good example. Secular ideologies would be another example. Scientism is probably a good example.

To me the two best examples are the patriotism/nationalism of the people of the United States of America and the arrogance of people who believe in the superiority of Western Civilization. False beliefs abound. There is the belief that Europeans in the New World were "pioneers", "settlers", etc. The New World was already settled before Europeans arrived. There is the belief that Western democracies have never fought wars of conquest. The role of the U.S. military in the removal of Native Americans alone is evidence that that is false.

I see almost nobody "arguing against" those beliefs. Is it "doing the world a great thing" only to argue against the "ultimately false beliefs" of theists? If not, then why are theists singled out?

How can "society" be rational? Something abstract like "society" is incapable of having beliefs. Only individuals can have beliefs. Either way, if arguing against false beliefs does so much good then why aren't the false beliefs of people's nationalism, secular ideologies, etc. being argued against in the same magnitude as the supposed false beliefs of theists? Where is the Richard Dawkins of U.S. nationalism?

More importantly, I think that what we have here is a naïve assumption that reason (or lack of reason) is a powerful force that influences outcomes. This is from Power, Responsibility and Freedom, by David Smail:


"Global society constitutes a system of inexpressible complexity. It is like a huge central nervous system in which ‘social neurons’ (i.e. people) interact with each other via an infinity of interconnecting and overlapping subsystems. The fundamental dynamic of the system is power, that is the ability of a social group or individual to influence others in accordance with its/his/her interests. Interest is thus the principal, and most effective, means through which power is transmitted.

Here, already, is the starkest possible contrast with our conventional psychology: what animates us is not rational appraisal and considered choice of action, but the push and pull of social power as it manipulates our interest. It is not argument and demonstration of truth which move us to action but the impress of influences of which we may be entirely unaware.

Reason, then, is a tool of power, not a power in itself. Just like moral right, rational right is not of itself compelling and, when it is in nobody's interest to regard it, will be disregarded. Those who - like Thomas Paine for example - seem successful advocates of Reason in its purest form, may fail even themselves to see that it is in fact not reason alone that makes their words persuasive, but the causes (interests) to which reason becomes attached. No doubt Mein Kampf was as persuasive to those already sold on its premises as The Rights of Man was to 18th century revolutionaries in America and France. This does not mean, to those who value reason, that Paine's writing is not worth infinitely more than Hitler's; it means simply, and sadly, that Reason alone is impotent. What really matters is power itself.

In her mordantly compelling Lugano Report2, Susan George vividly draws attention to the inadequacy of rational argument as a means of influencing people. In starting to consider alternatives to the potentially disastrous practices of global capitalism, she writes:-

[SIZE=-1]"This section has to start on a personal note because frankly, power relations being what they are, I feel at once moralistic and silly proposing alternatives. More times than I care to count I have attended events ending with a rousing declaration about what ‘should’ or ‘must’ occur. So many well-meaning efforts so totally neglect the crucial dimension of power that I try to avoid them now unless I think I can introduce an element of realism that might otherwise be absent.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]…because I am constantly being asked ‘what to do’, I begin with some negative suggestions. The first is not to be trapped by the ‘should’, the ‘must’ and the ‘forehead-slapping school’. Assuming that any change, because it would contribute to justice, equity and peace, need only to be explained to be adopted is the saddest and most irritating kind of naivety. Many good, otherwise intelligent people seem to believe that once powerful individuals and institutions have actually understood the gravity of the crisis (any crisis) and the urgent need for its remedy, they will smack their brows, admit they have been wrong all along and, in a flash of revelation, instantly redirect their behaviour by 180 degrees.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]While ignorance and stupidity must be given their due, most things come out the way they do because the powerful want them to come out that way.[/SIZE].." "
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Eudaimonist

I believe in life before death!
Jan 1, 2003
27,482
2,733
57
American resident of Sweden
Visit site
✟119,206.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Libertarian
It doesn't matter. It shows that truth/reality does not depend on if the speaker is theistic or atheistic.

You're just stating the obvious here. It's not obvious that the atheist you are quoting is correct.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
Upvote 0

HighwayMan

Well-Known Member
Aug 7, 2007
2,831
257
✟17,627.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Private
Nonsense, if people are devoting their lives to what are ultimately false beliefs, you are doing the world a great thing by arguing against those beliefs. The end result will be a more rational and less superstitious society, which at least in my opinion is a much better world to live in.

Of course radical Islam is a far greater threat to society than the Dalai Lama is, and the Dalai Lama has some positive attributes... but ultimately he presides over a belief system which promotes falsehoods.

He can still be a great man without the baggage of the belief system. That would be the ideal we strive for.

I could go after a lot of points in this post, but the "better world" thing that (some) atheists argue is perhaps the craziest of beliefs to me.

A "better world" where children have died horrifically in chemical weapon attacks, but whose only fate is to rot in the ground, end of story? A "better world" in which no matter how much better you make life for everyone currently living (and we are still very far from real improvement), it provides absolutely no justice for those already dead, especially those who have never known an ounce of joy, comfort or peace?

Let me get my party hat on.
 
Upvote 0

essentialsaltes

Stranger in a Strange Land
Oct 17, 2011
33,890
37,251
Los Angeles Area
✟842,269.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
I could go after a lot of points in this post, but the "better world" thing that (some) atheists argue is perhaps the craziest of beliefs to me.

A "better world" where children have died horrifically in chemical weapon attacks, but whose only fate is to rot in the ground, end of story? A "better world" in which no matter how much better you make life for everyone currently living (and we are still very far from real improvement), it provides absolutely no justice for those already dead, especially those who have never known an ounce of joy, comfort or peace?

I think most of us as children had the experience of complaining to a parent about some injustice, perceived or real, and the parent replying, "Life's not fair."

Maybe you missed that lesson.
 
Upvote 0

HighwayMan

Well-Known Member
Aug 7, 2007
2,831
257
✟17,627.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Private
I think most of us as children had the experience of complaining to a parent about some injustice, perceived or real, and the parent replying, "Life's not fair."

Maybe you missed that lesson.

And this is the kind of reply that makes me question whether some are even aware or how deeply they actually care about human suffering.

Every time a humanist is asked about something like this the response is about looking into the future and about fighting to prevent such things from happening again - that's fine and I agree, but that absolutely does not help those already dead.

If that's all there is - "life's not fair" and they just "rot in the ground", then the entire human existence is a complete indefensible abomination by every single last stretch of human morality that has ever been established. This would be completely the case even if there was only one dead child in all of human history, let alone multitudes of millions, with billions of people in suffering.

This may or may not be the ultimate truth, and I may choose to be optimistic in this regard and trust that it is not, but regardless - if this is the truth, then this is not a "good world", it is a hellish nightmare that humans can not correct even if they somehow managed to improve things for millions of years on end. If you can still drink your morning coffee and laugh at the morning cartoons while accepting all this, well, then we are not of the same species.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

essentialsaltes

Stranger in a Strange Land
Oct 17, 2011
33,890
37,251
Los Angeles Area
✟842,269.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
And this is the kind of reply that makes me question whether some are even aware or how deeply they actually care about human suffering.

Every time a humanist is asked about something like this the response is about looking into the future and about fighting to prevent such things from happening again - that's fine and I agree, but that absolutely does not help those already dead.

Nothing can help the already dead. Even in Christianity, I think, once they're dead, their fate is decided and there is nothing to do about it now.

On the matter of human suffering, the concern of the humanist side against the afterlife-y side is that, if "those who have never known an ounce of joy, comfort or peace" will get something of infinite price in the afterlife, then there's less reason to ease their suffering in the here and now.

if this is the truth, then this is not a "good world"

Life's not fair. Sorry you can't deal with it.
 
Upvote 0

Dave Ellis

Contributor
Dec 27, 2011
8,933
821
Toronto, Ontario
✟52,315.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
CA-Conservatives
I can think of plenty of false beliefs that people devote their lives to that have nothing to do with theism. Nationalism is a good example. Secular ideologies would be another example. Scientism is probably a good example.

To me the two best examples are the patriotism/nationalism of the people of the United States of America and the arrogance of people who believe in the superiority of Western Civilization. False beliefs abound. There is the belief that Europeans in the New World were "pioneers", "settlers", etc. The New World was already settled before Europeans arrived. There is the belief that Western democracies have never fought wars of conquest. The role of the U.S. military in the removal of Native Americans alone is evidence that that is false.

I see almost nobody "arguing against" those beliefs. Is it "doing the world a great thing" only to argue against the "ultimately false beliefs" of theists? If not, then why are theists singled out?

How can "society" be rational? Something abstract like "society" is incapable of having beliefs. Only individuals can have beliefs. Either way, if arguing against false beliefs does so much good then why aren't the false beliefs of people's nationalism, secular ideologies, etc. being argued against in the same magnitude as the supposed false beliefs of theists? Where is the Richard Dawkins of U.S. nationalism?

More importantly, I think that what we have here is a naïve assumption that reason (or lack of reason) is a powerful force that influences outcomes. This is from Power, Responsibility and Freedom, by David Smail:


"Global society constitutes a system of inexpressible complexity. It is like a huge central nervous system in which ‘social neurons’ (i.e. people) interact with each other via an infinity of interconnecting and overlapping subsystems. The fundamental dynamic of the system is power, that is the ability of a social group or individual to influence others in accordance with its/his/her interests. Interest is thus the principal, and most effective, means through which power is transmitted.

Here, already, is the starkest possible contrast with our conventional psychology: what animates us is not rational appraisal and considered choice of action, but the push and pull of social power as it manipulates our interest. It is not argument and demonstration of truth which move us to action but the impress of influences of which we may be entirely unaware.

Reason, then, is a tool of power, not a power in itself. Just like moral right, rational right is not of itself compelling and, when it is in nobody's interest to regard it, will be disregarded. Those who - like Thomas Paine for example - seem successful advocates of Reason in its purest form, may fail even themselves to see that it is in fact not reason alone that makes their words persuasive, but the causes (interests) to which reason becomes attached. No doubt Mein Kampf was as persuasive to those already sold on its premises as The Rights of Man was to 18th century revolutionaries in America and France. This does not mean, to those who value reason, that Paine's writing is not worth infinitely more than Hitler's; it means simply, and sadly, that Reason alone is impotent. What really matters is power itself.

In her mordantly compelling Lugano Report2, Susan George vividly draws attention to the inadequacy of rational argument as a means of influencing people. In starting to consider alternatives to the potentially disastrous practices of global capitalism, she writes:-

[SIZE=-1]"This section has to start on a personal note because frankly, power relations being what they are, I feel at once moralistic and silly proposing alternatives. More times than I care to count I have attended events ending with a rousing declaration about what ‘should’ or ‘must’ occur. So many well-meaning efforts so totally neglect the crucial dimension of power that I try to avoid them now unless I think I can introduce an element of realism that might otherwise be absent.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]…because I am constantly being asked ‘what to do’, I begin with some negative suggestions. The first is not to be trapped by the ‘should’, the ‘must’ and the ‘forehead-slapping school’. Assuming that any change, because it would contribute to justice, equity and peace, need only to be explained to be adopted is the saddest and most irritating kind of naivety. Many good, otherwise intelligent people seem to believe that once powerful individuals and institutions have actually understood the gravity of the crisis (any crisis) and the urgent need for its remedy, they will smack their brows, admit they have been wrong all along and, in a flash of revelation, instantly redirect their behaviour by 180 degrees.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]While ignorance and stupidity must be given their due, most things come out the way they do because the powerful want them to come out that way.[/SIZE].." "


The things you are referring to (i.e. nationalism, etc) are also for the most part, a negative for society as a whole, and should also be tossed out.

As for societies becoming more rational, societies are made up of people. The more people you can teach to think rationally, the more rational society as a whole becomes.

At best, you're arguing that since other false ideas in society exist, then religion should get a free pass. Instead, I'd argue that all false beliefs should be actively argued against.
 
Upvote 0

Eudaimonist

I believe in life before death!
Jan 1, 2003
27,482
2,733
57
American resident of Sweden
Visit site
✟119,206.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Libertarian
If you can still drink your morning coffee and laugh at the morning cartoons while accepting all this, well, then we are not of the same species.

I find that reassuring. Apparently, my species can deal with reality and yours can't.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
Upvote 0

Saleena

A whole new rage.
Aug 12, 2013
3,732
432
✟6,121.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
life isn't fair but if that is the thing you dwell on or use as a excuse every time things go wrong then you are a miserable person to be around. nobody wants to hear that when their kid is dying or they lost their job. part of being human is we have a brain that lets us escape thia awful reality sometimes. being blunt is a guarantee that you aren't using that big ol brain to its fullest. ita not fair sure but I'm not gonna lay it out like that to someone in pain.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

bhsmte

Newbie
Apr 26, 2013
52,761
11,796
✟247,431.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Unless you are Richard Dawkins and push the asinine notion that teaching children about religion is tantamount to child abuse.

I actually like Daniel Dennett's idea, which is to teach children about ALL the world's religions equally, from a theological history standpoint.
 
Upvote 0