The Worship Wars

[rockytopva]

In the story of the Saint of the Wilderness (http://www.christianforums.com/t7630646-11/#post60683796) our hero Robert Sheffey is fighting the lukewarmness that is setting in the Methodist church. The year is 1890 and the Spirit of revival that Wesley brought into the world is fading away. Sheffey will face quite a battle in his later life keeping the embers of camp meeting and revival alive. There were other battles going on in which in 1895 we had the likes of the Fire Baptized Holiness church which was an offspring of Methodism. In 1906 the Pentecostal revival began at Azusa Street and by 1907 Smith Wigglesworth testified as having been baptized in the Holy Ghost.

In the late 1980's, with many of the Pentecostal movements taking the Methodist paths from hot--> lukewarm--> cold we have seen the rise of Charismatic / Word of Faith movements. These all are part of the worship wars that take place in a church when it takes Laodicean paths from hot--> lukewarm--> cold. I don't fault people necessarily as I fault the devil himself, who wars against, and does everything he can, to prevent the true and beautiful worship from flowing through the hearts of God's servants.

 

[Frogster]

christ in me the hope of glory, is not dependant on a revival, i do not need the masses, i can pray, study, tongues, worship, right in my lil ole house.

i have the seal of God 2 cor 5;5 and elsewhere it is mentioned, it is not removed on a bad day, i am not whisked out of adam 2 here and there, when i was in adam 1, i was not whisked out here and there on a good day, likewise on an off day, i am not taken out of adam 2.

 

[Tobias]

Dude, how many Charismatic churches do you know that are now taking the same path? There are several churches that I used to attend that for some reason now, have decided NOT to be Charismatic anymore! I mean, they may not specifically say that they are giving up on the Spirit (who would?), but they do so in appearance and in practice.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Dude, how many Charismatic churches do you know that are now taking the same path? There are several churches that I used to attend that for some reason now, have decided NOT to be Charismatic anymore! I mean, they may not specifically say that they are giving up on the Spirit (who would?), but they do so in appearance and in practice.

That is the mark of a movement that really changed something . think about it .

 

[Frogster]

That is the mark of a movement that really changed something . think about it .

movement can be lateral or backwards.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

movement can be lateral or backwards.

bored eh?

 

[Frogster]

bored eh?

sometimes.

anyway, hope all is well.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

sometimes.

anyway, hope all is well.

Yepp . doing pretty well .

there's a touch of silence in that space the thoughts come from .

that's sometimes a good thing

 

[Frogster]

Yepp . doing pretty well .

there's a touch of silence in that space the thoughts come from .

that's sometimes a good thing

true.

 

[Biblicist]

Dude, how many Charismatic churches do you know that are now taking the same path? There are several churches that I used to attend that for some reason now, have decided NOT to be Charismatic anymore! I mean, they may not specifically say that they are giving up on the Spirit (who would?), but they do so in appearance and in practice.

Here in Australia this happened to an entire denomination; at least they had the sense to change their name to the Australian Christian Churches from that of the Assemblies of God - how the mighty have fallen!

 

[Faulty]

Charismatic worship now is not what it used to be. It's gone from the operation of the gifts for the edifying of the church, to signs and wonder seekers, positive confession, law of attraction, life must always be perfect and healthy, kings kids, Joel's army, manifest sons of god, conquering of the seven mountains for god, braggadocios "trips" to heaven through astral projection, scripture interpretation through experiences, feelings, and dreams, necromancy through frequent conversations with dead people, questionable angelic visitations, imaginary voices from god, and contemplative prayer and meditation.

I don't blame people recoiling away as a natural tendency from the current abomination. Not that it's the right answer, it's not, but it's understandable.

 

[Tobias]

Accepting everything God has taught us through this move of God -- is great!
Adding to it, or taking away from it, is not such a good idea. But I guess it takes real wisdom to know the difference between what is of God, and what is of Man.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Charismatic was great in the 1990s. I recall them getting teased a lot for not having any theology . so i guess what exists now is a response to that . but the simple faith .. is a beautiful thing .

 

[rockytopva]

Duplicate... Sorry...

 

[rockytopva]

"My fear is not that our great movement, known as the Methodists, will eventually cease to exist or one day die from the earth. My fear is that our people will become content to live without the fire, the power, the excitement, the supernatural element that makes us great. " - John Wesley

John B. Cobb, Jr., Ph.D. is Professor of Theology Emeritus at the Claremont School of Theology, Claremont, California... A Methodist theologian, he had this to say about the lukewarmness that has invaded the church (Why Are We Lukewarm? III)...

John Wesley, the founder of the Methodist movement, to which I belong, had strong views about money. In his later years, surveying the remarkable success of the movement he had started, he said that he had no fear about its continuation. His great fear was for its inner spirit. He had observed two things. First, although most converts to Methodism were poor, many moved into the middle class. Second, middle class Methodists divided their loyalties between God and the acquisition of wealth. For the latter I have chosen to use the word familiar to us from the King James and early revised versions of the Bible: Mammon.

The upward mobility Wesley observed with distress is easily understood. In the spirit of the earlier Reformers, Wesley taught that Methodists should earn all they could, save all they could, and give all they could. He himself earned quite a lot through his many publications, lived frugally, and gave away what he did not need. Hence he accumulated no private treasure to distract his attention from doing God's work. His followers became disciplined workers and lived frugally. Many of them were generous with their money. But this generosity did not prevent the accumulation of some capital and its wise investment. The security and growth of this capital became a matter of concern to them, competing for their attention with their service to God.

When we ask why Methodists have grown lukewarm, it is well to accept Wesley's own analysis as an important part of the answer. We have grown lukewarm because we have become rich. Despite Jesus' specific denial of this possibility, we try to serve both God and Mammon. I fear that, in this respect, we do not differ greatly from Baptists, Episcopalians, Presbyterians, and even Lutherans.

 

[linojio]

well...

 

[rockytopva]

Methodism was very much charismatic in the early days... Wesley’s journal from Jan. 1, 1739: “About sixty of our brethren until three in the morning, the power of God came mightily on us, insomuch that many cried out for exceeding joy, and many fell to the ground.” John Wesley prayed, “Lord send us revival without its defects but if this is not possible, send revival, defects and all.”

Whitefield wrote of many falling to the ground, trembling exceedingly with strong convulsions. People fell down, cried out, trembled with convulsive twitchings. Sinners dropped down, shrieking, groaning, crying for mercy, convulsed, agonizing, fainting, falling down in distress or in raptures of joy! The noise was like a roar of Niagara. The vast sea of human beings as agitated by a storm. Seized with convulsive jerking all over.