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squint

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so the word was in the beginning
the word was god
the word was recorded for our benefit
so you're basically saying the bible is god...

somehow that's really skewed guys

When the President of the U.S. issues a command, that command may be printed out to those for whom it is intended to be seen and understood, but the POWER that ENFORCES that command is an entirely different working that will not appear on the written page.

When God spoke, some heard and recorded. Some merely heard 'thunder(ings.) The 'hearings' of those were recorded also.

In any case it did not alter or change Gods Speaking or the intention of The Speaker.
 
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Meshavrischika

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When the President of the U.S. issues a command, that command may be printed out to those for whom it is intended to be seen and understood, but the POWER that ENFORCES that command is an entirely different working that will not appear on the written page.

When God spoke, some heard and recorded. Some merely heard 'thunder(ings.) The 'hearings' of those were recorded also.

In any case it did not alter or change Gods Speaking or the intention of The Speaker.
the command given IS NOT the president... therefore rendering the ideas presented in John to be false if you hold it to be true to the bible being the same word as is spoken of in John (that is if this example is what you're gonna use in comparison)
 
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Ormly

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this is what you wrote...

"in the beginning was the Word, and the word was God" was written by John

you say God has not beginning and I appreciate that but that's a given but in reality the beginning before the beginning of the Earth is immaterial to who and what we are - His creation of us and our existance is what matters in our path, not what has happened before that, other than He was here and created us and everything that matters to us... so, "in the beginning" would naturally refer to Genesis... to our beginning... and to assert otherwise would be strange... do you see what I'm saying?

I don't believe I said God was not beginning. I rather believe He was beginning again and the Word spoke it all in to existence. The Word was simply the expression of God as your own lips are to your own heart, inseparable and that which communicates your will. . . . .))
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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I don't believe I said God was not beginning. I rather believe He was beginning again and the Word spoke it all in to existence. The Word was simply the expression of God as your own lips are to your own heart, inseparable and that which communicates your will. . . . .))
Interesting thought Ormly.
Afterall, man does not live on Bread alone..........:)

I found this interesting while doing greek word studies on Revelation.

#1250 is used only 8 times, including 3 times in the Gospels. I found it interesting the word for "200" is used in Mark and John concerning the Loaves and Denarii. KEWL!! :)

Mark 6:37 The yet answering said to them "be ye given them ye to be eating! And they are saying to Him "coming away we should be buying of denaris two-hundreds/diakosiwn <1250> loaves/breads and we shall be giving them to be eating"? [John 6:7]

Reve 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness the-where she is having [*there] a place having been prepared from the God, that there they may be nurturing her days thousands two-hundreds/diakosiaV <1250> sixty. [Reve 11:3]
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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God spoke and then "there was".

Forgive me...
Isn't that amazing :)
Hey Ortho. Do ya'll have any Koine greek experts on the TAW board? This greek word #1250 is baffling me as it doesn't appear to have either the number 2 or hundred in it. Help me out....:D

Reve 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness the-where she is having [*there] a place having been prepared from the God, that there they may be nurturing her days thousands two-hundreds/diakosiaV <1250> sixty. [Reve 11:3]

1250. diakosioi dee-ak-os'-ee-oy from 1364 and 1540; two hundred:--two hundred.
1364. dis dece adverb from 1417; twice:--again, twice.
1540. hekaton hek-at-on' of uncertain affinity; a hundred:--hundred.

These 2 words seem to be closer in my view:

1223. dia dee-ah' a primary preposition denoting the channel of an act; through
2972. kos koce of uncertain origin; Cos, an island in the Mediterranean:--Cos.
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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you of all people finally get what I was saying

It is not an unOrthodox expression. For The Orthodox it is simply not expressed because God is ineffable. Therefore, for us it remains a mystery.

You are diving deep.

Forgive me...
 
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Ormly

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this is what you wrote...

"in the beginning was the Word, and the word was God" was written by John

you say God has not beginning and I appreciate that but that's a given but in reality the beginning before the beginning of the Earth is immaterial to who and what we are - His creation of us and our existance is what matters in our path, not what has happened before that, other than He was here and created us and everything that matters to us... so, "in the beginning" would naturally refer to Genesis... to our beginning... and to assert otherwise would be strange... do you see what I'm saying?



I don't believe I said God was not beginning. If I did I apologize. I rather believe He was beginning again and the Word spoke it all into existence. The Word was simply the expression of God as your own lips are to our own heart, inseparable and that which communicates our will. . . . .)) Now when John speaks of the Word made flesh we have a better idea of what he was trying to convey. . . . and to put it all in perspective: John was speaking after the fact of the cross. Why do I say that is because in vs14 he writes this: &#8220;And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.&#8221; John 1:14 (KJV) He is here not only speaking of the transfiguration but His resurrection; the forty days after the cross. Why the distinction? Before the cross there was nothing about Jesus that made Him stand out in the crowd. Had the Word been manifested as in Heaven, eyes would have been blinded. In the &#8220;subduing&#8221; of the Word, Jesus as a human was emphasized for reasons of demonstrating what man was purposed to be in Adam; the ultimate intention of the Father and how, by demonstrating the &#8220;way of the cross&#8221; it could be possible for mankind to once again enter into the relationship Adam forfeited. After revealing the &#8220;way of it&#8221; Jesus proceeds to an actual cross to make it possible for us to succeed in life the same as He did; to become as He became, He being the Heir and we who are in Him, Joint-heirs.

Side note: Taking communion carries the significance of this as an emblem, a recognition of the fact of intimacy contained in the elements.
 
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The problem is that so many people have different ideas of eternity. If we all defined that in the same way we might not spend so much time talking past each other. I tend (of course) to use what I have been taught by The Church of Antioch.

Forgive me...
 
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New_Wineskin

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okay, we all know this passage, and we all know that in a way it references back to Genesis 1 (or it wouldn't say "In the beginning" :))... Anyway...

What do you think "the Word" means? What is it referencing?


The gospel .


Just Christ?

The message aboutHim , yes .


The bible?

Definitely not .


What does it mean to you and you need to share the reason for your belief and what consequences your belief has... what does your belief cause you to do?

Well , since it is the gospel , it is everything about our belief .
 
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M

MamaZ

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so the bible was around in the beginning? (boy that would have been handy for Job... he could've just looked and seen everything would have been all hunky dory)
Was Christ around in the flesh before He became flesh or is it that the words spoken such as let their be light are indeed what John 1:1 states? That the very word spoken by God became flesh?
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Was Christ around in the flesh before He became flesh or is it that the words spoken such as let their be light are indeed what John 1:1 states? That the very word spoken by God became flesh?
The flesh profith nothing, the Spirit of Christ is the Way. :preach:

James 5:20 Let be knowing that the one turning back a sinner out of deception of his Way, shall be saving his soul out of death, and shall be covering over a multitude of Sins.

Reve 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, the witness, the faithful, the firstborn of the dead-ones and the Chief of the kings of the land. Of the One loving us, and loosing us, from the Sins of us, in the blood of Him
 
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Vasileios

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**let me clarify, I do believe he is that word, but I don't think logos is accurate, but just the greek translation of another word or idea... and not a good one
Of course we agree that the Logos is Christ. But I have to disagree that it is a translation of another word or idea. And that it is not a good word.

First, St. John wrote in greek. And the phrasing he used to open his gospel is indeed carefully chosen. "In the beginning..." clearly ties the text with Genesis. So, God formed the earth. St. John takes it deeper: The Logos made everything, He is God, and further down he says these profound words: "and the Logos became flesh". So, we are clearly talking about Christ. And Christ is God. So what about the word Logos?

Logos, does not mean "written word" as you state in your opening post. The greek for that is "&#947;&#961;&#945;&#966;&#942;/graphi" (singular) or "&#947;&#961;&#945;&#966;&#945;&#943;/graphe" (plural). Logos actually means a lot of things. And it can be translated in many ways, and as a personal comment "Word" is one of the least successful ones. Here is what Logos means:

1. Reason
This should be imho, the more accurate translation. Logos means first and foremost two things: The reason (as to why something has happened) and reason as intelligence, as we say reasoning capabilities of the mind. Logos is the root word of "logic" (and logic in ancient greek doesn't mean mathematics but employing the unique to human reasoning capabilities).

2. Speech
As in the words uttered by someone.

3. Word. As in the meaning of the words (but also tied to his reasoning, see 1), but also as in the phrase "he kept his word".

4. Wisdom or scholarship. Which is used even today: Theo-logy, cosmo-logy, astro-logy etc (that -logy is from the word "Logos"). The original meaning of the ancient greeks about that -logia was acquiring wisdom about the subject, or using our intelligence about it, or talking about it. (see how it all connects?)

St. John choses this word to use for Christ. And why? Because the Logos has become flesh and he is now preaching to the nations. And he is using now a language that has the sufficient vocabulary to convey the awesome mysteries of God and His incarnation. In the hellenistic culture of the time, which was *the* culture of the mediterrenean and middle-east, after Alexander the Great, the word "Logos" is not a mystery at all. It is a word heavily loaded and with very rich meaning, thanks to all the great ancient greek philosophers, like Heraclitus, Socrates, Plato and Aristotle. They ALL used "Logos" as the defining principle of the cosmos. The reason for everything or the intelligence that started it all. Not everyone agreed about the Logos, but the word is that: Nothing short of the Prime Reason, Aristotle's immovable mover.

And St. John comes and says: The Logos is with God, and the Logos is God. The light of the world. Through him everything was made. And He became flesh. Because God so loved the world.

This awesomely profound declaration of St. John, which came AFTER the first three gospels were written, to explain, to speak deeper about God, is the definition of THEOLOGY. Because, in Orthodoxy a theologian is one who has achieved theosis, and has filled his nous (the core of the heart) with the Holy Spirit "that leads to all Truth". Theo-logy is wisdom about God, so by its very definition, it can only come from God, by revelation. And here is the gospel of St John (whom the Orthodox Church calls the Theologian, an extremely rare title) that gives a much broader and deeper insight of "...the beginning" and completes the picture of Genesis.

And then we begin the journey of true theology, guided by those who have the Holy Spirit in them to lead us away from errors: Who IS Christ? Eternally born from the Father, before Creation, God's Logos. You and I have also the Logos, our mind, our Reason, we are made in His image. And our minds cannot contain that what to us is one and the same thing, ourself, my mind, my thoughts, they are me, in God, the Logos is a separate person, and one who took on our nature as well.

O-USA, said it well: You are diving deep. These matters are profound mysteries because they deal with God's nature, which is uncreated, and thus alien to us, who are created. The only way we know God is through Christ, because He became like us, took on the created nature, so we may understand, so we may be reconciled, so we may be lifted again, amen.

Rest assured, that the word "Logos" is extremely well chosen. I have never come across something better.
 
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Meshavrischika

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Well, hate to disagree... okay, I don't hate it, but I'm being polite, I'll just say I diagree about the language thing. Koine greek should better be referred to as idiot greek because it is so far removed from greek grammar and usage it's kindergarten level. The terms and phrases suit far better Aramaic or Hebrew "isms". But, you're welcome to your ideas since from what I understand you're taught personal revelation is bad anyway, and this is what your group has decided, so I understand why you have believed it.

Beyond that, I do agree that 2 is accurate, but the rest is supposition IMO and way more complication than there really is to it.
 
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Vasileios

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First things first:
I have not referred to or used anything called "koptic" greek. I am referring to the koine Greek, in which the new testament was written, which obviously shares the same vocabulary as ancient Greek. I can read both.

You are of course welcome to disagree about what the word Logos means, but that will not change the fact that it means what I said it does, and I should know, being Greek myself and having studied the language quite closely. It still means the same things today.

That John wrote in Greek is common knowledge. And he did use the word "Logos". I have not been taught by my Church that he used that word because Heraclitus and the rest of the Greek philosophers did (although I am sure the church fathers had no problem with that, quite the contrary I would assume). That is simply the background of the word. Here, the wikipedia entry (not great, but sufficient)

----

Now, as to personal revelation, I'm not sure what you mean. If you mean a revelation that goes against what has been revealed to the Church, yes, I do believe that is bad. If you mean personal, as in a person got a revelation, then no. Thing is, a revelation simply uncovers a truth to the one receiving it. The truth is always the same and unchanging. So, if you get contradictory revelations, then something's not right. One of the two at least, has it wrong, if not both. The Church contains all the revelations of the Holy Spirit, checked against each other, discerned by the saints, two millenia. That doesn't mean I have *experienced* these revelations in my heart personally. I wish I had, but God knows best.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Now, as to personal revelation, I'm not sure what you mean. If you mean a revelation that goes against what has been revealed to the Church, yes, I do believe that is bad. If you mean personal, as in a person got a revelation, then no. Thing is, a revelation simply uncovers a truth to the one receiving it. The truth is always the same and unchanging. So, if you get contradictory revelations, then something's not right. One of the two at least, has it wrong, if not both.

The Church contains all the revelations of the Holy Spirit, checked against each other, discerned by the saints, two millenia. That doesn't mean I have *experienced* these revelations in my heart personally. I wish I had, but God knows best.
I would say Paul agrees with that :thumbsup:
What I found interesting about this greek word #2673 is, out of the 27 times it is used in the NT, it is only used once in the Gospels, the other times used by Paul in the Epistles. Interesting.

http://www.scripture4all.org/

1 Corinthians 13:8 The Love not-then is failing: whether yet prophecies, they shall be being made useless/katarghqhsontai <2673> (5701); whether tongues they shall be ceasing/pausontai <3973> (5695), whether knowledge, it shall be being made-useless/katarghqhsetai <2673> (5701).
 
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Ormly

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Of course we agree that the Logos is Christ. But I have to disagree that it is a translation of another word or idea. And that it is not a good word.

First, St. John wrote in greek. And the phrasing he used to open his gospel is indeed carefully chosen. "In the beginning..." clearly ties the text with Genesis. So, God formed the earth. St. John takes it deeper: The Logos made everything, He is God, and further down he says these profound words: "and the Logos became flesh". So, we are clearly talking about Christ. And Christ is God. So what about the word Logos?
Some facts: 1. Jesus was born of a woman. That establishes Him as the "son of man". 2. Being the seed of His Heavenly Father makes Him the Son of God. That is all actual now lets get to the reality. . . . . . . ))

Where I believe your error is in this is with your use of the title, "Christ". Christ is what Jesus, the 'son of man', was. Christ was not the Son of God. Christ was the title given the son of man, by Peter: "Thou art the Christ . ., [making Jesus to be realized by him, to be the Son of God] . . . Son of the living God" (Matt.16:16) In this, it is vitally important to keep in mind that the Spiritual "weight" of the title of 'Christ' is, the "Word". By virtue of the 'seed of the Father', He was the Word, made Flesh that was hidden from humanity that His flesh could and would be sacrificed. To this end Father prepared a body for the eternal logos/Word who came to do the will of God and die for the sins of the world (Heb. 10:7-9; Gal. 1:4; 1Pet. 2:24) If we can embrace this explanation of "intimacy", we can readily see where God indeed gave Himself, in human flesh as the sacrifice for the transgression of Adam and for man's sins. The 'strength of the Holiness of the Character' of God, in human flesh, hung on that cross, reconciling man to God. The 'unifying Blood of Himself' was that which accomplished the task. nothing else of man could have achieved it. It had to be perfect. It was the only way it could be accomplished. The significance of this union with Jesus as man, with His Father, who is God, is that by revelation made possible by our new birth, we can see not only as Peter saw but as Jesus saw and become what He became. That was and is the ultimate intention of God from Adam onward.

Lets examine something:

"He says to them, But who do you say that I am?
And Simon Peter made answer and said, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus made answer and said to him, A blessing on you, Simon Bar-jonah: because this knowledge has not come to you from flesh and blood, but from my Father in heaven. And I say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock [of understanding] will my church be based [my people be established in the Father], and the doors of hell will not overcome it [them]."Matthew 16:15-18 (BBE)

[emphasis added]

Notice the revelation Peter received was not that Jesus was God but God had anointed Jesus such that Peter could say only that much concerning Jesus without violating the limitation of revelation. Peter was faithful in speaking only that which God revealed to him, nothing more. In this we can only suppose as to what Peter would have done had he fully realized, God stood in from of him, limited only divinely imposed limitations of the flesh.

I hope this helps someone. It did me by simply writing it all out . .))



I re-post the below that above might have additional clarification. Thanks for re-reading it:

The Word was simply the expression of God as your own lips are to our own heart, inseparable and that which communicates our will. . . . .)) Now when John speaks of the Word made flesh we have a better idea of what he was trying to convey. . . . And to put it all in perspective: John was speaking after the fact of the cross. Why I say that is because in vs14 he writes this: &#8220;And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.&#8221; John 1:14 (KJV) He is here not only speaking of the transfiguration, that he witnessed but His resurrection and the forty days after the cross. Why the distinction? Before the cross there was nothing about Jesus that made Him stand out in the crowd. Had the Word been manifested as in Heaven, eyes would have been blinded. In the &#8220;subduing&#8221; of the Word, Jesus as a human was emphasized for reasons of demonstrating what man was purposed to be in Adam; the ultimate intention of the Father and how, by demonstrating the &#8220;way of the cross&#8221;, it would be possible for mankind to once again enter into the relationship Adam forfeited. After revealing the &#8220;way of it&#8221; Jesus proceeds to an actual cross to make it possible for us to succeed in life the same as He did; to become as He became, He being the Heir and we who are in Him, Joint-heirs.
 
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