The upcoming Civil War

[JSGuitarist]

For what it's worth, this vision simply sounds sequitur of all the non-denominational raves I've been hearing on the internet ever since I've been on any Christian forum, how denominations are bad, and those outside the denominational structure - or at least are in opposition - are correct, as if a denomination cannot be correct. The idea of God using every one who is not part of that structure and rejecting those in the deoniminational system.. I go to a denominational church. We have a very godly pastor, our church heeds the prophetic voice, we've taken heavy initiative to reach this city for Christ, we don't practice closed-door communion and service, and there are so many people here who love God, their hearts lie with Him, and desire to be used by Him, but are they not worthy simply because they're part of a denomination?

The idea of using the uneducated... yes he can, though at the same time it's making sound like education is a bad thing. I know many college graduates, from both secular and bible colleges, who have a very strong desire to follow the Lord and would pack up and leave the moment He gave the word; if He sends them, they'll go. As a matter of fact, many go to college because they simply want to expand their gifts to be of further use in God's kingdom. I go to a secular college, but I hope one day to go to a bible college to make sure I have strong theological grounding so I may be more effective to others. I am going to a secular college for business so I could do administration for a church someday too, since many churches need that kind of person. I've had friends go off and try and do their own thing without being educated - that is, they won't even sit under a church leader - and just wound up realizing how much they needed it.

Honestly, this doesn't sound like any new concept to me. I've heard the non-denom rant many times before, and this sounds like another version.

 

[Tobias]

I just had a couple questions of clarification for the OP...



So, you are saying that the new leadership are like David and have been anointed already. And most of Christianity will reject the new leadership at first?

Yes, the new leadership has already been anointed and are finishing up their training. And they are being persecuted by the Church in general, as whenever they claim to "hear from God", the old leadership hampers them with doubts and questions as to their qualifications to be able to do so. Also, if any current leaders like Saul have figured out that the new stock will replace them eventually, then they do whatever they can to hold them down and keep them from developing into what God has called them to.

Are you saying that the whole system is going to change? Or just the leaders?

The system will change somewhat into one with a "God Speaks" type of foundation. The leaders may or may not need to be replaced, depending upon their ability to adjust to the new way of doing things. The new leaders that God is training will just slip in, and start to guide the Church according to the Will of God as revealedto them. The checks and ballances of this system are already in place, as many many people can already perceive the Will of God. Just, very few leaders at this point are willing to go out on a limb and actually follow God's Voice.

And how does the revival you went to tie into this? Are you saying that the leaders of the revival are the new Davids? Or are they the old Sauls?

The revival came to be because Todd Bently chose to listen to the Voice of God rather than human reasoning. This is the essence of what God wishes to do with His Church. I can imagine that in the near future we will see many more examples of people giving themselves over to God's direction and great outpourings of the Spirit following with signs and wonders; because I perceive that this is the direction God is taking us.

As for the leadership, there are many who will cross over without a hiccup and do just fine letting God be in control. David certainly didn't replace all of the leaders of Judah as soon as he took office! Those who were still loyal to Saul's heir got the boot though, I imagine.

The real sign of this all happening is the shear numbers of people who are being raised up by God, yet are completely unsuitable for Church leadership under the current format. In fact, much of the Church itself is groaning in pain under the burden of their pastors and leaders who will not submit to God, but insist that their way is better than stepping out in faith. God has used a different training ground for His new leaders than what we have seen so far, and these new leaders will be able to step out in faith and lead the people wherever God wants them to go. (That's what Todd is doing, btw.)

 

[Tobias]

Your concept of church is skewed. A local church is simply an assembly of believers. The Church (capital "C") is the entire body of believers. The head of the Church is Jesus. That is the system in place. That is the "orginization" of the Church. Different local assemblies of believers, of course, differ in how they operate. There is no single "system" or orginazition that unifies all local assemblies into The Church

I am aware of that.

- other than JESUS Himself.

Yes, this is how the current system is marketed and sold. But how much exactly does Jesus actually do in running the affairs of the Church? (Or the local church?) We do so much in the name of Jesus, supposing I guess that because we've decided it's His will based upon our theological understanding of the Bible; that we convince ourselves that He is actually running the show.

This however is a different system that what is shown in the Bible. There we read that His Spirit led men of God, and thereby guided His people.

NOT that this new move will be that much different than the last! Putting things in perspective: we all hear wonderous things about Martin Luther and how he stood up to the Catholic Church, and created the Reformation. But honestly, I can't see too much difference between a Lutheran church service and a Catholic one! God leads us forward in small steps.

God calls people to be His people. He calls by the gospel. He doesn't call people to new "moves of God".

Don't like my terminology? God did ordain David, and He did remove the leadership of His people from one who would not listen to Him, to one who would. Call it what you will.

 

[Tamara224]

The real sign of this all happening is the shear numbers of people who are being raised up by God, yet are completely unsuitable for Church leadership under the current format. In fact, much of the Church itself is groaning in pain under the burden of their pastors and leaders who will not submit to God, but insist that their way is better than stepping out in faith. God has used a different training ground for His new leaders than what we have seen so far, and these new leaders will be able to step out in faith and lead the people wherever God wants them to go. (That's what Todd is doing, btw.)

Well thanks for clarifying that for me, Tobias.

I do see a lot of what you describe... that our current leaders are not following God's voice in many instances, and also that there are many qualified disciples and pastors and various believers who are in training for leadership though not recognized by the "officials".

But I see TB and other revivalists as the old Sauls in your analogy. Far as I can tell, it's the exact same stuff that's been being done for 40+ years now.


Have you, by chance, read the book "Revolution" by George Barna? Barna makes some very apt observations and interesting correlations. You should check it out.

 

[Tobias]

For what it's worth, this vision simply sounds sequitur of all the non-denominational raves I've been hearing on the internet ever since I've been on any Christian forum, how denominations are bad, and those outside the denominational structure - or at least are in opposition - are correct, as if a denomination cannot be correct. The idea of God using every one who is not part of that structure and rejecting those in the deoniminational system.. I go to a denominational church. We have a very godly pastor, our church heeds the prophetic voice, we've taken heavy initiative to reach this city for Christ, we don't practice closed-door communion and service, and there are so many people here who love God, their hearts lie with Him, and desire to be used by Him, but are they not worthy simply because they're part of a denomination?

The idea of using the uneducated... yes he can, though at the same time it's making sound like education is a bad thing. I know many college graduates, from both secular and bible colleges, who have a very strong desire to follow the Lord and would pack up and leave the moment He gave the word; if He sends them, they'll go. As a matter of fact, many go to college because they simply want to expand their gifts to be of further use in God's kingdom. I go to a secular college, but I hope one day to go to a bible college to make sure I have strong theological grounding so I may be more effective to others. I am going to a secular college for business so I could do administration for a church someday too, since many churches need that kind of person. I've had friends go off and try and do their own thing without being educated - that is, they won't even sit under a church leader - and just wound up realizing how much they needed it.

Honestly, this doesn't sound like any new concept to me. I've heard the non-denom rant many times before, and this sounds like another version.

People for some time have been trying to draw the line between what's good in the Body of Christ, and what's bad. Where I say that line is drawn at this time is with those who are willing to take the next step in following God's voice a bit closer, and those who won't. (or simply are not ready yet.) It has nothing to do with denominational lines. It has everything to do with the individuals' heart attitude toward God, and their willingness to let Him be Lord.

 

[Yekcidmij]

We do so much in the name of Jesus, supposing I guess that because we've decided it's His will based upon our theological understanding of the Bible; that we convince ourselves that He is actually running the show.

Conjecture.

This however is a different system that what is shown in the Bible.

That is based on your theological understanding. You just did the very thing you complain about.

But honestly, I can't see too much difference between a Lutheran church service and a Catholic one!

You are fixated on church services for some reason.

God did ordain David, and He did remove the leadership of His people from one who would not listen to Him, to one who would. Call it what you will.

Unfortunately your analogy doesn't work between David/church leaders. If you must comparing David to someone, you should look towards Solomon and Jesus.

Also, the entire body of believers is called to follow Jesus and be "priests" and rulers not just a select few that are called to run something like a church service:

Rev 1:6 and has appointed us as a kingdom, as priests serving his God and Father

5:10 "You have appointed them as a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth.”

 

[WarEagle]

Doing things "Because God showed me" was quite a habit of those we would examplify in the Bible. Ever notice how many times scripture says: "And the Lord spoke unto ______ saying..."?

Are you prepared to justify scripturally exactly why God no longer uses the same methods?

Absolutely.

For one thing, check out Hebrews 8.

The reason God spoke directly to the prophets in the Old Testament was that we did not have the Holy Spirit and we did not have the word of God.

Because of this, when a prophet spoke on behalf of God, his words came to pass and that demonstrated his authority. His very words were considered inspired as scripture.

You're not an OT prophet so you can't play the "God told me and you don't need to bother to verify it" game anymore.

I don't mind you questioning what I'm saying

I didn't question what you said. I questioned the Unbiblical manner in which you said it.

heaven knows I'm not above making mistakes

Then wouldn't that make it that much more important that your words are confirmed by scripture when you claim to speak on behalf of God?

You question whether or not God can and does speak.

I beg your pardon??? When did I ever do that? If you really believe that I believe that, then how on Earth do you explain the "How does God speak to you" thread in General Apologetics, where I said that God absolutely does still speak to us?

I think you need to stop spreading tall tales.

You question whether or not He would chose to speak to me. You wish to qualify why He would chose to speak to me.

Again, this is not true. I never said any such thing. If you're not even capable of reading my posts, then how on Earth can we believe that you can discern the voice of God without scripture?

And then, if we ever could manage to get through all of that, then we have to analyze what He says, picking every detail apart and comparing it to known patterns of what God has done in the past to determine just how probable it is that this just may be God speaking this paricular time. And by the time we are done, the real issue with the situation comes into play, which is that we really don't like what God is telling us to do so we just as soon declare it to be "false" so we don't have to inconvenience ourselves with obedience.

Then the problem is not with the standard by which we're told to discern God's voice, but with your low view of the word of God.

 

[Tobias]

Well thanks for clarifying that for me, Tobias.

I do see a lot of what you describe... that our current leaders are not following God's voice in many instances, and also that there are many qualified disciples and pastors and various believers who are in training for leadership though not recognized by the "officials".

But I see TB and other revivalists as the old Sauls in your analogy. Far as I can tell, it's the exact same stuff that's been being done for 40+ years now.


Have you, by chance, read the book "Revolution" by George Barna? Barna makes some very apt observations and interesting correlations. You should check it out.

You're welcome!

Some of what's been done over the past 40+ years has been good! So of course that needs to be continued. Where TB sets himself apart though is where he follows the leading of the Holy Spirit. Or so I imagine...

Perhaps if he were working under the old system, I bet he would change in a heartbeat when the new comes into play. But that's what this revelation about the revival being the beginning of the revolution is about. That it is already taking place, TB being one of the first of the new leaders to step forward; while hundreds of thousands of Christians worldwide via the tv and internet are seeing God in a way that the current Church has been unable to provide on a regular basis.

 

[Yekcidmij]

Perhaps if he were working under the old system,

Tell me about this old system.

TB being one of the first of the new leaders to step forward;

So you would suggust we should follow this guy?

while hundreds of thousands of Christians worldwide via the tv and internet are seeing God in a way that the current Church has been unable to provide on a regular basis.

The current Church? God's Church has failed? God's Chuch is inadequate? Is that what scripture says? Is this what god is telling you?

 

[mont974x4]

Follow TB? Why would anyone follow someone who worships angels and thinks God tells him to abuse people by kicking them in the face or leg dropping a pastor?


I think I'll keep my eyes on Christ.

 

[Tobias]

You question whether or not He would chose to speak to me. You wish to qualify why He would chose to speak to me.

Again, this is not true. I never said any such thing. If you're not even capable of reading my posts, then how on Earth can we believe that you can discern the voice of God without scripture?

Sorry, I was grouping you in with the general "Saul" types. That was a plural "you". I know you personally never said all of those things!

Question though: Do you really believe that my ability to hear correctly from God is dependant upon my ability to read your posts and respond to them in a way that is satisfactory to you? How does the one relate to the other?

This is the problem I see so often with the moving of the Holy Spirit. Contrary to what we learn from the Bible where each person used by God also had multiple faults; we think that just because we can find a flaw in one of God's servants we can just ex that person off the list! What's up with that? Do you really think that Samson was the best that God could do; the holiest person in all of Israel for God to show Himself strong through? Heck no!

God choses His leaders based upon His own criteria. We then are left with the choice: either accept God through whichever vessle He choses to reveal Himself through, or not. If we chose not to accept God's revelation of Himself, then Romans 1 comes into play, and we start to fasion God in a downward-sliding-scale image of less and less and less of what He really is.


Excuses. The Church is full of excuses for why we don't have to listen to and follow the leading of the Holy Spirit. Call them doctrinal reasons, call them acting responsible, call them whatever you will. God calls it rebellion.

 

[WarEagle]

Question though: Do you really believe that my ability to hear correctly from God is dependant upon my ability to read your posts and respond to them in a way that is satisfactory to you? How does the one relate to the other?

You don't seem to get it. I never said anything about your ability to hear from God. I'm saying that you're held to the same standard as everybody else, and that is submission to the authority of the word of God.

This is the problem I see so often with the moving of the Holy Spirit. Contrary to what we learn from the Bible where each person used by God also had multiple faults; we think that just because we can find a flaw in one of God's servants we can just ex that person off the list! What's up with that? Do you really think that Samson was the best that God could do; the holiest person in all of Israel for God to show Himself strong through? Heck no!

Absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand. We're not talking about flawed vs not flawed. We're talking about you and your thumbing your nose at your responsibility to be able to show scripture to back up your words when you presume to speak on behalf of God.

God choses His leaders based upon His own criteria. We then are left with the choice: either accept God through whichever vessle He choses to reveal Himself through, or not. If we chose not to accept God's revelation of Himself, then Romans 1 comes into play, and we start to fasion God in a downward-sliding-scale image of less and less and less of what He really is.


Excuses. The Church is full of excuses for why we don't have to listen to and follow the leading of the Holy Spirit. Call them doctrinal reasons, call them acting responsible, call them whatever you will. God calls it rebellion.

Again, you're dodging the issue. This is not about this leader or that leader. It's about your responsibility to defer to the scriptures when you claim to speak for God.

Let's face it, man: if this were the Old Testament, you'd have been stoned to death by now.

 

[Yekcidmij]

God choses His leaders based upon His own criteria. We then are left with the choice: either accept God through whichever vessle He choses to reveal Himself through, or not.

A.K.A. Jesus the Messiah. Why is that so hard to get? What other vessel is there to accept God through? You have just created your own messiah.

If we chose not to accept God's revelation of Himself, then Romans 1 comes into play, and we start to fasion God in a downward-sliding-scale image of less and less and less of what He really is.

AKA Jesus the Messiah. That's God's revelation of Himself that you must accept. What's up with this looking elsewhere stuff?

Excuses. The Church is full of excuses for why we don't have to listen to and follow the leading of the Holy Spirit. Call them doctrinal reasons, call them acting responsible, call them whatever you will.

So.....the charges you lay against the Church are (1) wanting correct belief, and (2) being responsible.

Wow. I'm feeling good if those are the charges. Mom would certainly be proud (and shocked that I was actually charged with such things). Yep, you obviously don't recognize the Spirit. Being responsible and trying to believe the truth (aka correct doctrine) both mean someone is led by the Holy Spirit (though we don't get it all correct, we're only human). But you don't recognize Him. I guess, to you, it doesn't matter what you believe and you can be irresponsible and that means you are "following the spirit"......you should be disturbed by that, but I doubt you are.

The Israelites had a word for those that followed other spirits besides YHWH: PAGANS. You think someone could accurately describe your own man-messiah (T.B.) like that? Yes. T.B., who you frequently seem to allude to on this thread above anyone else, is your man messiah. You know why? You believe that he is the (or a) unique place where God's Spirit is located - down in Lakeland or wherever he is this week. Please realize that YHWH was revealed in and through Jesus and Jesus is who you must believe in. T.B. nor ANY OTHER acts as the priest or king on our behalf; belief in them is irrelevant. ALL of Jesus' people are indwelt with the Holy Spirit which Jesus sends to His people. God is revealed through each of His people. Every time a believer loves their neighbor as themself, ever time they obey God's commands, when they tell people the gospel, when they care for others, when they a ridiculed because of your faith and suffer because of Jesus' name, and everytime someone believes the gospel, God is revealed through them. God is revealed through what the Spirit has already done and what was recorded for us in the Bible. God is revealed throuh all His people that have faith in the resurrected Messiah, Jesus, the King. Neither T.B. nor anyone else has a corner on the Holy Spirit or revelation. God is present in His Temple - the Church - the entire body of believers.

People who have faith in Jesus have accepted God's revelation of Himself and believed in Him. You DO NOT have to believe in T.B. OR ANYONE ELSE in order to accept God's revelation of Himself. You have just built a false god. A mangod. You are following a man. Should I post scriptures about false gods and what YHWH says HE will do about them?

God calls it rebellion.

Demonstrate.


There's only one person on this thread that's in danger of complete rebellion.

 

[He put me back together]

As a *pentecostal* I just have one request for this Civil War thing that you guys keep talking about.

Could the Lakeland-friendly charismatics, like, you know...wear blue, and the Lakeland-skepticals wear red? Or vice versa? Maybe the neutrals could wear grey...and that way I could tell who is who. It'd be sorta like Command & Conquer, but with tongue talking and people falling down and getting up instead of just falling down.

And there prolly won't be jeeps and tanks, because of the gas.

 

[Tobias]

Absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand. We're not talking about flawed vs not flawed. We're talking about you and your thumbing your nose at your responsibility to be able to show scripture to back up your words when you presume to speak on behalf of God.

Again, you're dodging the issue. This is not about this leader or that leader. It's about your responsibility to defer to the scriptures when you claim to speak for God.

Let's face it, man: if this were the Old Testament, you'd have been stoned to death by now.

I thought I had already shown you scriptures to back up what I'm saying. What point(s) have I made that you still have a contention with?

Are you calling me a false prophet? Based upon what? In the OT, prophets were considered false if what they said did not come to pass, or if they led the people to follow after other gods. Some of the prophecies of the biblical prophets have still not come to pass, thousands of years later! And you've given me what, all of 10 hours????

 

[WarEagle]

I thought I had already shown you scriptures to back up what I'm saying. What point(s) have I made that you still have a contention with?

No, you have not shown any scripture to back up what you've said.

Are you calling me a false prophet? Based upon what?

Based on the fact that you claim to speak on behalf of God and that you claim that God "told" you that the so called "revival" in Lakeland is of God when, in fact, nearly everything about it is heretical.

In the OT, prophets were considered false if what they said did not come to pass, or if they led the people to follow after other gods. Some of the prophecies of the biblical prophets have still not come to pass, thousands of years later! And you've given me what, all of 10 hours????

I've already explained the difference between you and the Old Testament prophets.

There is a big difference between prophecying something in the future that hasn't happened yet, and claiming that God told you something that contradicts His word.

 

[Tobias]

A.K.A. Jesus the Messiah. Why is that so hard to get? What other vessel is there to accept God through? You have just created your own messiah.




AKA Jesus the Messiah. That's God's revelation of Himself that you must accept. What's up with this looking elsewhere stuff?



So.....the charges you lay against the Church are (1) wanting correct belief, and (2) being responsible.

Wow. I'm feeling good if those are the charges. Mom would certainly be proud (and shocked that I was actually charged with such things). Yep, you obviously don't recognize the Spirit. Being responsible and trying to believe the truth (aka correct doctrine) both mean someone is led by the Holy Spirit (though we don't get it all correct, we're only human). But you don't recognize Him. I guess, to you, it doesn't matter what you believe and you can be irresponsible and that means you are "following the spirit"......you should be disturbed by that, but I doubt you are.

The Israelites had a word for those that followed other spirits besides YHWH: PAGANS. You think someone could accurately describe your own man-messiah (T.B.) like that? Yes. T.B., who you frequently seem to allude to on this thread above anyone else, is your man messiah. You know why? You believe that he is the (or a) unique place where God's Spirit is located - down in Lakeland or wherever he is this week. Please realize that YHWH was revealed in and through Jesus and Jesus is who you must believe in. T.B. nor ANY OTHER acts as the priest or king on our behalf; belief in them is irrelevant. ALL of Jesus' people are indwelt with the Holy Spirit which Jesus sends to His people. God is revealed through each of His people. Every time a believer loves their neighbor as themself, ever time they obey God's commands, when they tell people the gospel, when they care for others, when they a ridiculed because of your faith and suffer because of Jesus' name, and everytime someone believes the gospel, God is revealed through them. God is revealed through what the Spirit has already done and what was recorded for us in the Bible. God is revealed throuh all His people that have faith in the resurrected Messiah, Jesus, the King. Neither T.B. nor anyone else has a corner on the Holy Spirit or revelation. God is present in His Temple - the Church - the entire body of believers.

People who have faith in Jesus have accepted God's revelation of Himself and believed in Him. You DO NOT have to believe in T.B. OR ANYONE ELSE in order to accept God's revelation of Himself. You have just built a false god. A mangod. You are following a man. Should I post scriptures about false gods and what YHWH says HE will do about them?




Demonstrate.


There's only one person on this thread that's in danger of complete rebellion.

Are we both reading the same thread??? I never said that TB was the messiah... Never alluded to it, never mentioned anything about it. Never even said much in favor of the guy.

You seem dead set on countering everything I say, Yek. I don't know how to answer you most of the time, as you aren't even giving me enough material in your posts to discuss. All I can gather is that you disapprove.

I can clarify this however. That there is such a thing as discernment, double checking the spoken Word against the written, and pretty much doing everything responsible to make sure that what you've heard is from God. It is after that point, when we have determined that God has indeed spoken, but we still resist Him, that we fall into rebellion.

Current Church practices have made this form of rebellion not only acceptable, but common practice. Many people eager to follow the word of the Lord are encouraged not to do so in favor of Man's opinions.

 

[WarEagle]

That there is such a thing as discernment, double checking the spoken Word against the written

Irony, thy name is Tobias.

 

[Tobias]

Based on the fact that you claim to speak on behalf of God and that you claim that God "told" you that the so called "revival" in Lakeland is of God when, in fact, nearly everything about it is heretical.

Ahhh. I see. So that's what you have a problem with.

You're one of those people...

 

[WarEagle]

Ahhh. I see. So that's what you have a problem with.

You're one of those people...

Yes. I'm one of those people who has a problem with those who speak presumptuously on behalf of God and take it upon themselves to give God's blessing to something that goes against His word.

When you do that, you make God out to be a liar.

This is the kind of thing God commanded people be killed for in the Old Testament.