The "Unforgivable" sin?

[Mustang56]

So rejecting Jesus as your Lord and Savior (basically abandoning worship of God because of the Trinity) is said to be the unforgivable sin. But what significance does the word "unforgivable" have?

Doesn't the person who rejects Christ go to Hell anyway? What good are forgiving his other sins if he commits that? How can it unforgivable if the person dies and is at judgement with his current stance of not worshiping Christ? There is no forgiving at that moment. How can it be unforgivable if you can't be forgiven for anything in the first place during judgement?

This seems to be a paradox.

 

[god's_pawn]

Is rejecting Jesus as Lord and Savior a sin or just a choice? I'm not sure that the Bible actually says it's a sin anywhere.

 

[jackmt]

So rejecting Jesus as your Lord and Savior is said to be the unforgivable sin.

This I believe, is erroneous. It is a simplistic way of resolving the difficult Scripture that says that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven in this life or the next. Jesus was speaking to the rulers who knew Scripture and rejected the Spirit of God working in Christ. Remember that rather than repent and believe after Lazarus was raised from the dead, they sought to kill Lazarus again, because his resurrection was drawing people away from them and to following Jesus.

Doesn't the person who rejects Christ go to Hell anyway? What good are forgiving his other sins if he commits that? How can it unforgivable if the person dies and is at judgement with his current stance of not worshiping Christ? There is no forgiving at that moment. How can it be unforgivable if you can't be forgiven for anything in the first place during judgement?

This seems to be a paradox.

I am not clear on what you are saying hear, but I don't see you making a distinction between "unforgivable" and "unforgiven."

Some sins may be forgiven in this life. Jesus said "Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do." So knowledge is a factor in the severity of punishment, and there are levels of punishment in hell.

 

[Mustang56]

This I believe, is erroneous. It is a simplistic way of resolving the difficult Scripture that says that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven in this life or the next.

But according to Scripture, we don't get second chances after we die or when we are Judged, correct? So how can forgiveness exist past death or Judgement?

That's why the notion that not believing in Christ as unforgivable bothers me, because it's not something you have done in the past, it's a stance you currently hold until death or if you change your mind. There is no forgiving of it unless you believe in him, which if you do then aren't you forgiven? But I thought it was unforgivable?

 

[god's_pawn]

But according to Scripture, we don't get second chances after we die or when we are Judged, correct? So how can forgiveness exist past death or Judgement?

That's why the notion that not believing in Christ as unforgivable bothers me, because it's not something you have done in the past, it's a stance you currently hold until death or if you change your mind. There is no forgiving of it unless you believe in him, which if you do then aren't you forgiven? But I thought it was unforgivable?

Well, are they in hell because they sinned, or they in hell because they choose to be there? I would argue in favor of the latter. Christ died once and for all (including those who don't believe. Therefore, sin has already been paid for. Thus, I believe people go to hell because they choose against God. They would rather be separated from Him for forever and so God created hell for that purpose.

 

[Leap]

If repenting and coming to Christ is the means of forgiveness of our sins, it stands to reason that the unforgivable sin is the stance of not coming to Christ...as coming to Christ is the requirement for sin to be forgiven. Essentially making it another stance against salvation by works.

Or am I mistaken here?

 

[jackmt]

But according to Scripture, we don't get second chances after we die or when we are Judged, correct? So how can forgiveness exist past death or Judgement?

That's why the notion that not believing in Christ as unforgivable bothers me, because it's not something you have done in the past, it's a stance you currently hold until death or if you change your mind. There is no forgiving of it unless you believe in him, which if you do then aren't you forgiven? But I thought it was unforgivable?

"...in this life or the next" seems to indicate that there may be forgiveness of sorts in the next life. But I don't know. That may just be an unanalyzed expression like "Jump out of the way before you get killed!" As if you might jump out of the way after you get killed.

We are born at enmity with God by nature. No man can come to Christ except the Spirit draw him. So rejecting Christ is not a lifelong stance, but repeatedly and knowingly rejecting the Spirit's leadings. Dying having not received Christ may be forgiveable but unforgiven depending on one's level of knowledge, intelligence, opportunity, etc. "To whom much is given, [of him] much will be required."

 

[Armistead14]

What if the person has never heard of Jesus Christ?

Which would be the majority of mankind.

The bigger issue is people are products of culture. If we Christians were born in Iran, we would 98% likely be Muslim, same in China, India and many parts of the world. Children are ingrained from birth to follow the religion of their culture. This isn't simply undone by hearing the gospel. It can take years to break cultural habits to even get people to want to listen to the gospel. For example, when I did mission work in Africa, the previous missions there couldn't just go in and start preaching. They had to learn customs, languages, etc. You had to convince Chiefs before people. They start by simply doing good works, medicine, feeding. Simply living love. It can take a few years. If you do it right, they see something and then you can share the gospel in a way they understand. It's is difficult, almost OT, they expect you to prove your God is stronger than theirs. Of course millions die without Christ during this process.


Worse, the spreading of the gospel became one of economics. The Christian movement spread to Europe because of the intense road system built previously by the Romans.
Then it took another 1000 plus years until it reached the shores of the Americas. Missions followed soldiers and traders around the world. Most lands had to be conquered first, trade set up, then missions came. Simply, those that lived in non economic areas were the most likely the last to hear the gospel.


I don't think many Christians believe hell, if they did, they would sell all they had and spend their lives spreading the word.

 

[jackmt]

People are held accountable for the knowledge and opportunities they are given. You have been given years of opportunities. What's your excuse?

 

[Mustang56]

People are held accountable for the knowledge and opportunities they are given. You have been given years of opportunities. What's your excuse?

Knowledge: acquaintance with facts, truths, or principles, as from study or investigation; general erudition: knowledge of many things; the fact or state of knowing; the perception of fact or truth; clear and certain mental apprehension.

I can't say for certain Christ or God exists. There is no objective truth I can perceive, I'm told that if I don't believe in a book over a thousand years old (during a time of primitive science and belief), I'll spend eternity suffering for even using my rationality, logic and critical thinking analyzing the probability of such an entity existing. I'm not saying "I have it all figured out, you're all wrong." I'm not doubting the possibility, but I find it to be extremely low based on real world observation and connections. Not to mention I'm quite aware that this whole belief system operates on fear and not love as you'd want to believe. The fear of suffering forever.

To me, it sounds like God rewards the gullible.

You know, that same argument can be said for Islam. They will tell you that you had all this knowledge of Mohammed and his revelation of God but you reject it. Why do you reject it? Because there is a lack of proof defending his validity. But isn't that the same type of faith you place in the Bible? What gives your faith more validity?

That's how I feel about religion in general.

I'm a former Christian btw.

 

[FreeinChrist]

MOD HAT


This particular section of Christianforums is for Christians only. If you do not agree with the Statement of Faith, you should not post here.

 

[jackmt]

Knowledge: acquaintance with facts, truths, or principles, as from study or investigation; general erudition: knowledge of many things; the fact or state of knowing; the perception of fact or truth; clear and certain mental apprehension.

I can't say for certain Christ or God exists. There is no objective truth I can perceive, I'm told that if I don't believe in a book over a thousand years old (during a time of primitive science and belief), I'll spend eternity suffering for even using my rationality, logic and critical thinking analyzing the probability of such an entity existing. I'm not saying "I have it all figured out, you're all wrong." I'm not doubting the possibility, but I find it to be extremely low based on real world observation and connections. Not to mention I'm quite aware that this whole belief system operates on fear and not love as you'd want to believe. The fear of suffering forever.

To me, it sounds like God rewards the gullible.

You know, that same argument can be said for Islam. They will tell you that you had all this knowledge of Mohammed and his revelation of God but you reject it. Why do you reject it? Because there is a lack of proof defending his validity. But isn't that the same type of faith you place in the Bible? What gives your faith more validity?

That's how I feel about religion in general.

I'm a former Christian btw.

So science is now your god and religion. But it's priests are not infallible. And you are as gullible as you think me to be. Would that evolutionists were as skeptical about their own beliefs as they are and as I am about mine.

The Christian story begins in Genesis and goes through Revelation. All manner of prophesies were spoken and fulfilled. Christ was prophesied many times and in many ways. Christ fulfilled those prophesies. Christ raised Himself from the dead, of which there is more proof than that George Washington existed. Scripture warns of those bringing another gospel. Scripture did not prophesy Muhammed, and he came preaching another gospel.

 

[stone]

So rejecting Jesus as your Lord and Savior (basically abandoning worship of God because of the Trinity) is said to be the unforgivable sin. But what significance does the word "unforgivable" have?

Doesn't the person who rejects Christ go to Hell anyway? What good are forgiving his other sins if he commits that? How can it unforgivable if the person dies and is at judgement with his current stance of not worshiping Christ? There is no forgiving at that moment. How can it be unforgivable if you can't be forgiven for anything in the first place during judgement?

This seems to be a paradox.

Your presumption is incorrect, I'll just say that. I'm not going to mention what is that unforgivable sin.

 

[Mustang56]

So science is now your god and religion

I don't worship science. I simply use it to rationalize and piece together evidence.

History is also a huge part of discovering the truth. One can point to many mythological parallels the Scripture has, such as gods born of virgins, heaven and hell, good ominous force vs evil ominous force, judgement, creation, pagan roots of modern religious symbolism, holidays and deities.

 

[Leap]

I can't say for certain Christ or God exists.

That's modernism for you. Religion is about faith, not 'proving'. Your heart either resonates with Christ, "his sheep know his voice", or it does not. It is pre-modern (certainty, faith, tradition, institutions) not the modernist or post-modern doubt&chaos-promoting attack on such.

This is not the place for challenging Christianity (as the mod person has already said).

 

[Mustang56]

That's modernism for you. Religion is about faith, not 'proving'. Your heart either resonates with Christ, "his sheep know his voice", or it does not. It is pre-modern (certainty, faith, tradition, institutions) not the modernist or post-modern doubt&chaos-promoting attack on such.

This is not the place for challenging Christianity (as the mod person has already said).

It's unfortunate that captioning the Outreach forum section (non-believers) labels Theology as the board to debate, yet it excludes any non Christian. Fair enough I suppose, it's your board.

 

[FreeinChrist]

MOD HAT


This thread is being moved to Exploring Christianity

 

[ViaCrucis]

So rejecting Jesus as your Lord and Savior (basically abandoning worship of God because of the Trinity) is said to be the unforgivable sin. But what significance does the word "unforgivable" have?

Doesn't the person who rejects Christ go to Hell anyway? What good are forgiving his other sins if he commits that? How can it unforgivable if the person dies and is at judgement with his current stance of not worshiping Christ? There is no forgiving at that moment. How can it be unforgivable if you can't be forgiven for anything in the first place during judgement?

This seems to be a paradox.

The "unpardonable sin", generally understood, is not something that cannot be forgiven (as though God is unable or unwilling); but rather it is we ourselves refusing, persistently, the impartial and unconditional forgiveness that is there. Though I am rushed to the emergency room, and the doctor is there willing, able, wanting, and working to heal me; I am quite capable of being an obstinate and unwilling patient, flailing, trying to run, trying to hide.

Jesus' mention of it seems to be also in the context of a willfull, deliberate, knowing rejection or ignorance. That is this: Even should God come to my doorstep, in all the divine and radiant love and glory, I would still say, "Leave me alone to my own business."

It's therefore not "rejecting Christianity" or similar such notions; it is rather a persistent, unwavering, rather willfull act of consistently choosing myself day-in and day-out over and against the good which God would have of me and that which is found in Him.

It is further my earnest hope that, some day, all of Hell be found empty and all be restored to God. Therefore, I'm unwilling to dogmatically claim that those "in Hell" who have lived a life of persistent self-inwardness cannot, just like we today, be redeemed and reconciled. I have no reason to place a limit on Divine Mercy.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Ashleyface]

Jesus is awesome.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

So rejecting Jesus as your Lord and Savior (basically abandoning worship of God because of the Trinity) is said to be the unforgivable sin. But what significance does the word "unforgivable" have?

Doesn't the person who rejects Christ go to Hell anyway? What good are forgiving his other sins if he commits that? How can it unforgivable if the person dies and is at judgement with his current stance of not worshiping Christ? There is no forgiving at that moment. How can it be unforgivable if you can't be forgiven for anything in the first place during judgement?

This seems to be a paradox.

The so-called 'unpardonable sin' is clearly defined in scripture.

Hebrews 6:
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this will we do, if God permit.
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Mark 3:28-29
28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.

So the unpardonable sin doesn't apply to those who don't or won't receive Christ, but those who have and gone back into the world having been saved from the world. Verses 4-5 of Hebrews 6 makes clear the sort of person the unpardonable sin is referring to. Those who:

Were once enlightened,
Tasted the heavenly gift,
Were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Tasted the good word of God,
And the powers of the world to come.

In verse one Paul adjures believers to go on to perfection. Even today there are many who stop learning as soon as they are dry from baptism. They are in danger of becoming like the seed that sprung up quickly but had no depth of root, and perished.

Paul further instructs to 'make your calling and election sure', and, 'study to show yourself approved', etc.

There are many who leave the church who were never really in the church to begin with thus not guilty of the unpardonable sin.