The comparison of the Lord as a trinity to water confuses me. Water has three forms: solid (ice), liquid (water) and gas (steam). Water tends to only be one of these things at once - it is either ice or water or steam. It is never all three at once. That's why the comparison of the Lord to water is so confusing to me - I am inclined to believe that the Lord is always all three - that he is always God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit all at once, all the time. As you can see, something gets seriously lost in translation between The Way Water Works and What I Think The Lord Is. Can somebody please help me by perhaps providing a more easily understood comparison? Once that doesn't imply, however subtly, mutual exclusion between the three chracters of the trinity?
The Trinity - Water?
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Bouke285
It's not a sin to be wrong, but be wrong humbly!
Hi, It is extremely hard for us to define exactly how the trinity works because of our limited understanding, Earlier this year someone had the same question and all of a sudden this idea came into my head and I drew a picture of it (a bad one). Maybe this will help clear things up, the water analogy doesn't really work for me either 
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ephraimanesti
Senior Veteran
MY SISTER,
There are many things in Spiritual reality which are hard to explain in physical terms--and the nature and function of the Trinity is at the top of that list.
i have always like the "water explanation" because it makes sense to me although, as you rightly point out, water cannot be in more than one state at a time while the Trinity, of course, always has been and always will be.
As Christians, we accept--for now--mysteries we cannot rationally explain because they are far beyond our physical experience, in the faith that, in due time, all will become clear. As Paul writes, "Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face."(I Corinthians 13:12)
Someone once said, "We cannot worship what we completely understand." i find this statement to be true and have become content with the idea that i will never, on this material plane, understand everything about God. i just worship Him for Who He is as our Abba.
ABBA'S FOOL,ephraim
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That is why the water analogy cannot adequately explain the Trinity. For water has three forms. God is a Spirit in form. God has one form, not three.
Compare God to man. Man has a spirit, a soul, and a body. God has a Spirit, a personality, and had a body.
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Thanks for the drawing, Bouke!
The Trinity is a hard concept to grasp, and I don't think we need to feel like something is wrong if we aren't getting a solid sense of it.
A Jewish friend said that God's Spirit is just Himself (moving across the face of the waters). Christians see the Spirit as an indwelling Presence of God that is able to divide up into millions of portions to become one with us. Odd, yes... we don't talk about any divisibility.
Something that helped me, was a Jesse DuPlantis report of a heavenly experience he'd had. Jesus walked around like a person, and could appear to anyone. But there was one point where he was seen merging with the throne of the Father, and stepping out from it.
Which makes this like three overlapping circles of a Venn diagram.
It is hard to develop theories about someone we do not visibly see, and that communicates with us in such intangible ways.
That is the closest to how I think of the Trinity--Body, Mind, Spirit.
The Trinity is a hard concept to grasp, and I don't think we need to feel like something is wrong if we aren't getting a solid sense of it.
A Jewish friend said that God's Spirit is just Himself (moving across the face of the waters). Christians see the Spirit as an indwelling Presence of God that is able to divide up into millions of portions to become one with us. Odd, yes... we don't talk about any divisibility.
Something that helped me, was a Jesse DuPlantis report of a heavenly experience he'd had. Jesus walked around like a person, and could appear to anyone. But there was one point where he was seen merging with the throne of the Father, and stepping out from it.
Which makes this like three overlapping circles of a Venn diagram.
It is hard to develop theories about someone we do not visibly see, and that communicates with us in such intangible ways.
That is the closest to how I think of the Trinity--Body, Mind, Spirit.
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BobW188
Growling Maverick
I have always liked the triangle analogy. One closed figure consisting of three sides.
We can study (for instance, measure), each side separately and, (if we know the included angles at each end) can construct the entire triangle from it. In other words, what we know of one gives us insights into the other two. What we know of the Father, for example, tells us much about the nature of the Son and Spirit.
And, of course, a triangle must have three sides to be a triangle.
As to mutual inclusion, consider that the triangle includes not just its three sides but the space it encloses.
Hope this helps.
We can study (for instance, measure), each side separately and, (if we know the included angles at each end) can construct the entire triangle from it. In other words, what we know of one gives us insights into the other two. What we know of the Father, for example, tells us much about the nature of the Son and Spirit.
And, of course, a triangle must have three sides to be a triangle.
As to mutual inclusion, consider that the triangle includes not just its three sides but the space it encloses.
Hope this helps.
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sbbqb7n16
Veteran - Blue Bible Dude
George is at one time in his life, a son, a father, and a brother. (His father's son, his son's father, and his brother's brother)
Now when George's father looks at him, he sees his son (and all that means). When his son looks at him, he sees his father (and all that means), and when his brother looks at him, he sees his brother (and all that means). But at no point does the man change. He is still George.
Likewise God is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. His Spirit in Heaven is God, His Spirit in the body of Christ is still the same God, and the Holy Spirit is the same God. They only seem to have different roles because of who is looking at them - but they are all out to accomplish the will of God.
I like to say that Jesus is God's Son for lack of a better word. I mean it's the same Spirit, just wrapped in flesh. Can He be His own Dad? For lack of a better word, yes.
Philip *said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us." Jesus *said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, `Show us the Father'? Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works. Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves.
-John 14:8-11
Now when George's father looks at him, he sees his son (and all that means). When his son looks at him, he sees his father (and all that means), and when his brother looks at him, he sees his brother (and all that means). But at no point does the man change. He is still George.
Likewise God is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. His Spirit in Heaven is God, His Spirit in the body of Christ is still the same God, and the Holy Spirit is the same God. They only seem to have different roles because of who is looking at them - but they are all out to accomplish the will of God.
I like to say that Jesus is God's Son for lack of a better word. I mean it's the same Spirit, just wrapped in flesh. Can He be His own Dad? For lack of a better word, yes.
Philip *said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us." Jesus *said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, `Show us the Father'? Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works. Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves.
-John 14:8-11
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About Trinity:
Defination = According to the Athanasian Creed, there are three devine Persons (the Father, the Son, The Holy Ghost), each said to be eternal, each said to be almighty, none greater or less than another, each said to be God, and yet together being but one God. (However this is NOT a Bible teaching.)
Consider this:
Does the Bible really teach that the Holy Spitit is a person?
Some texts say that people were "filled" with the holy spirit and that some were "babtized" it or "anointed" with it. See Luke 1.41, Matt 3:11, Acts 10:38. This latter references to holy spirit definitely do not fit a person. To understand what the Bible as a hole teaches, all this texts must be considered. What is the resonable conclution then? That the first texts cited here employ a figure of speech personifying God's holy spirit- His Active Force, as the Bible also personifies wisdom,sin, death, water and blood.
In addittion: the Bible tell us the personal name of the Father (JHWH) wich is known as Jehovah or Jawe. The Scriptures also inform us that the Son's name is Jesus Christ. But nowhere in the hole Bible is a personal name applied to the holy spirit.
Does the Bible agree with those who teach that the Father and the Son are not separate and distinct individuals?
Matt 26:39 says: "Going a little farther he (Jesus) fell on his face and prayed: "My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as YOU will." (If the Father and the Son were not distinct individuals, such a prayer would have been completly meaningless. Then Jesus would have been praying to himself, and his will of necessity have been the Fathers will.
John. 8:17,18 : ("Jesus answered the Jewish Pharisees: In your law it is written that the testimony of two men is true, I bear witness to myself, and the Father who sent me bears witness to me". (So Jesus definitely spoke of himself as being an individual separate and distinct from his Father.)
Does the Bible teach that none of those who are said to be included in the Trinity is greater or less than another, that all are equal and that they all are almighty?
Jesus said: (Mark 13:32) "Of that day or that hour no one knows, not even the angles in the heaven, nor the Son, but ONLY the Father." (Of course, that would not be the case if Father, Son and Holy Spirit were coequal, comprising one Godhead. And if, as some suggest, was limited by his human nature from knowing, the question remains: Why did the Holy Spirit not know?
Conclution:
The Hebrew word "Shad'dai' " and the Greek word Pan'tokra'tor are both translated "Almighty". Both orginallanguage words are repeatedly applyed to God (Jehovah), the Father. Neither expression is ever applied to either the Son (Jesus) or the Holy Spirit.
Hope this helps a little....
Defination = According to the Athanasian Creed, there are three devine Persons (the Father, the Son, The Holy Ghost), each said to be eternal, each said to be almighty, none greater or less than another, each said to be God, and yet together being but one God. (However this is NOT a Bible teaching.)
Consider this:
Does the Bible really teach that the Holy Spitit is a person?
Some texts say that people were "filled" with the holy spirit and that some were "babtized" it or "anointed" with it. See Luke 1.41, Matt 3:11, Acts 10:38. This latter references to holy spirit definitely do not fit a person. To understand what the Bible as a hole teaches, all this texts must be considered. What is the resonable conclution then? That the first texts cited here employ a figure of speech personifying God's holy spirit- His Active Force, as the Bible also personifies wisdom,sin, death, water and blood.
In addittion: the Bible tell us the personal name of the Father (JHWH) wich is known as Jehovah or Jawe. The Scriptures also inform us that the Son's name is Jesus Christ. But nowhere in the hole Bible is a personal name applied to the holy spirit.
Does the Bible agree with those who teach that the Father and the Son are not separate and distinct individuals?
Matt 26:39 says: "Going a little farther he (Jesus) fell on his face and prayed: "My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as YOU will." (If the Father and the Son were not distinct individuals, such a prayer would have been completly meaningless. Then Jesus would have been praying to himself, and his will of necessity have been the Fathers will.
John. 8:17,18 : ("Jesus answered the Jewish Pharisees: In your law it is written that the testimony of two men is true, I bear witness to myself, and the Father who sent me bears witness to me". (So Jesus definitely spoke of himself as being an individual separate and distinct from his Father.)
Does the Bible teach that none of those who are said to be included in the Trinity is greater or less than another, that all are equal and that they all are almighty?
Jesus said: (Mark 13:32) "Of that day or that hour no one knows, not even the angles in the heaven, nor the Son, but ONLY the Father." (Of course, that would not be the case if Father, Son and Holy Spirit were coequal, comprising one Godhead. And if, as some suggest, was limited by his human nature from knowing, the question remains: Why did the Holy Spirit not know?
Conclution:
The Hebrew word "Shad'dai' " and the Greek word Pan'tokra'tor are both translated "Almighty". Both orginallanguage words are repeatedly applyed to God (Jehovah), the Father. Neither expression is ever applied to either the Son (Jesus) or the Holy Spirit.
Hope this helps a little....
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heymikey80
Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum viditur
A few comments.
Your chemistry teacher can tell you, water can coexist in all three forms. If you've ever had iced tea, it's pretty obvious that water and ice coexist there. Water vapor is also present (and it's less than 212 deg).
The analogy is possible to extend, but it'll break down. Created examples always break down when the Uncreated is considered.
I tend to look at it this way. God is trans-personal. So He's more than personal. So when we attempt to relate to God personally, we find He shows Himself to us as more than one person. The analogy of proceeding from a 1-dimensional line to a 3-dimensional space would be the closest thing I could draw to this thought. God's more than personal. To someone concentrating on a line connecting to him, he would be able to express anything in the cube as positioning along three lines (axes). A cube would be seen from a 1-dimensional line conception as a trinitarian line.
Your chemistry teacher can tell you, water can coexist in all three forms. If you've ever had iced tea, it's pretty obvious that water and ice coexist there. Water vapor is also present (and it's less than 212 deg).
The analogy is possible to extend, but it'll break down. Created examples always break down when the Uncreated is considered.
I tend to look at it this way. God is trans-personal. So He's more than personal. So when we attempt to relate to God personally, we find He shows Himself to us as more than one person. The analogy of proceeding from a 1-dimensional line to a 3-dimensional space would be the closest thing I could draw to this thought. God's more than personal. To someone concentrating on a line connecting to him, he would be able to express anything in the cube as positioning along three lines (axes). A cube would be seen from a 1-dimensional line conception as a trinitarian line.
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seashale76
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Here is an excellent link that explains the Orthodox Christian doctrine of the Holy Trinity:
OCA - The Orthodox Faith
OCA - The Orthodox Faith
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Dr. Walter Martin talks about a scientist doing an experiment with water. He took the water and made ice and steam automatically from the water. All three were present in a tube at one time in different forms.
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[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Each person in the Trinity is God, no less or more than the other person in the Trinity, but there are different functions or roles, of each person. For example, the Father is the source of all things and he is the one who gives everything. Everything comes through Jesus Christ. Everything is created through Jesus Christ, by God the Father. The Holy Spirit is the one who performs, what comes from God the Father, through Jesus.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]If the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Almighty God the Father, than why should he not be God himself?[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]If the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Almighty God the Father, than why should he not be God himself?[/FONT]
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Perhaps consider the sun.
Father - the actual sun
Jesus - the light (the sun made manifest)
Holy Spirit - the warmth (the presence of God)
Father - the actual sun
Jesus - the light (the sun made manifest)
Holy Spirit - the warmth (the presence of God)
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