The Transcendent Unity of Religions, Perennialism ,Tradition

[Montalban]

For the record i am not saying that Mystics don't mean well including the sufi,the shia and the rumi Kind.

All i am saying is their spiritual/mystics writings have nothing to do with CORE islamic texts like Quran and hadiths.

Sufis are fringe

 

[Drunk On Love]

Is that center involve a particular belief, like God and the universe being synonymous/unified in a pantheistic way? Or is it a particular kind of mystical state that produces a plurality, of what seems like different beliefs, but are really different interpretations of some reality that transcends the concept of unity and division, somehow?

Historically there have been differing manners of explaining it. The reality itself transcends the limited power of human language to describe. It can only point in the general direction but never actually define God or the highest mystical states in any absolute manner.

How do you distinguish this truth from the dogma?

To use a Buddhist saying dogmas would be like fingers pointing at the moon. They are not the moon itself. The Truth would be the moon and only in a secondary sense the finger.

While I wouldn’t agree with that statement because of Plato and the influence on Christianity, what I wanted to know is if nondualism is a part of the truth you believe is at the center of the experience or just one way of articulating it, along with dualism, in an attempt to understand something beyond those two positions.

As a Muslim I am a firm believer in non-dualism. Ultimate Reality is One and has no partners. Associating partners with God is very dangerous and I don't consider it to be a valid belief for any religion.

I don't believe that Platonic dualism is an absolute dualism either. Certainly not as understood by the Neo-Platonists like Plotinus, Prophyry, or Iamblichus.

 

[Drunk On Love]

Sufis are fringe

Currently maybe but at one time they were literally everywhere throughout the Islamic world. You could go from one end of the Islamic world to the other (across contients) and find Sufi Hostels to rest at in most every city you crossed in your travels. From Asia to the Western parts of North Africa. Kings and other rulers often had favored orders that they financially supported. Sufi orders became a really established force to be reckoned with. Did you know Iran became Shi'ite thanks to a Sufi order?

 

[Drunk On Love]

What is the spirituality of warfare?

Giving of yourself and suffering hardship for the defense of a greater cause. It can be a type of asceticism and a saying "no" to the ego as well. The ego wants safety and comfort but you discipline it for the sake of others. It can also become an outer manifestation of the inner Jihad against the unruly passions. The two symbolizing with one another.

One of my favorite Sufi Orders , The Bektashi, was connected with the Janissarie corp in the Ottoman Empire. Interestingly they were a Shi'ite order in a Sunni dominated land but they won the respect of the people.

Good question for sure.

 

[Montalban]

Currently maybe but at one time they were literally everywhere throughout the Islamic world. You could go from one end of the Islamic world to the other (across contients) and find Sufi Hostels to rest at in most every city you crossed in your travels. From Asia to the Western parts of North Africa. Kings and other rulers often had favored orders that they financially supported. Sufi orders became a really established force to be reckoned with. Did you know Iran became Shi'ite thanks to a Sufi order?

No, I didn't.

Are you saying that Shi'a doesn't date to the time of the Koran? I thought Iran became Moslem by being captured

 

[Drunk On Love]

Are you saying that Shi'a doesn't date to the time of the Koran? I thought Iran became Moslem by being captured

The Sassanian Empire was defeated and overrun. Shi'ism does date back to the time of Qur'an. Pre-Safavid Iran was ruled by Sunni leaders.

 

[Montalban]

The Sassanian Empire was defeated and overrun. Shi'ism does date back to the time of Qur'an. Pre-Safavid Iran was ruled by Sunni leaders.

So Shi'a is more recent? More so than Sunni?

 

[Drunk On Love]

So Shi'a is more recent? More so than Sunni?

Not in terms of origin. In terms of being the majority faith in Iran, Yes.

 

[Montalban]

Not in terms of origin. In terms of being the majority faith in Iran, Yes.

I don't understand you. I'm asking you about which is older and you're telling me which is more popular

 

[Drunk On Love]

You asked if it was more recent and I said that it wasn't more recent in origin. Shi'ism isn't more recent than Sunnism. I also said "Shi'ism does date back to the time of Qur'an."

 

[Montalban]

You asked if it was more recent and I said that it wasn't more recent in origin. Shi'ism isn't more recent than Sunnism.

Does that mean that Sunni is older or they both developed at the same time?

I also said "Shi'ism does date back to the time of Qur'an."

Yes, and you told me it's more popular in Iran.

 

[ElijahW]

Historically there have been differing manners of explaining it. The reality itself transcends the limited power of human language to describe. It can only point in the general direction but never actually define God or the highest mystical states in any absolute manner.
To use a Buddhist saying dogmas would be like fingers pointing at the moon. They are not the moon itself. The Truth would be the moon and only in a secondary sense the finger.
As a Muslim I am a firm believer in non-dualism. Ultimate Reality is One and has no partners. Associating partners with God is very dangerous and I don't consider it to be a valid belief for any religion.

And with your non-dualism, I should just consider that a finger pointing to a higher truth that transcends the unity you are promoting now? You are admittedly incapable of explaining the actual truth on this issue? Is this a problem with words associating with different things, so using them assumes a multitude of things in the universe, when you are trying to describe the universe as a single thing?

I don't believe that Platonic dualism is an absolute dualism either. Certainly not as understood by the Neo-Platonists like Plotinus, Prophyry, or Iamblichus.

What do you mean it isn’t an absolute dualism? Could you give a few quotes from the philosophers you mentioned, that you think illustrate what you are talking about?

 

[Drunk On Love]

What do you mean it isn’t an absolute dualism? Could you give a few quotes from the philosophers you mentioned, that you think illustrate what you are talking about?

I'm referring to the idea of the One. See above link.

Neoplatonism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"The primeval Source of Being is the One and the Infinite, as opposed to the many and the finite. It is the source of all life, and therefore absolute causality and the only real existence."

And with your non-dualism, I should just consider that a finger pointing to a higher truth that transcends the unity you are promoting now?

As they say Allahu Akbar or " God is Greater."

I should just consider that a finger pointing to a higher truth that transcends the unity you are promoting now?

Certainly transcends what we understand by the word "unity".

You are admittedly incapable of explaining the actual truth on this issue?

In an absolute sort of fashion? Yes. It's something that can only be alluded to and hinted at. God transcends anything we can think or say of him. Some understandings don't even point in the right general direction though such as absolute dualism and are thus of little practical use. Other understandings are providential and point us in the right direction even if they are incapable of actually "defining" God in any absolute sense.

 

[Drunk On Love]

Does that mean that Sunni is older or they both developed at the same time?

No it's not older. The specific terms developed at the same time and in opposition to one another. That is when the issue of succession was brought into debate at the death of the Prophet. The idea that Imam Ali (as) was supposed to succeed the Prophet as leader was known well before this however so the reality of Shi'ism goes back to the time of the Qur'an whereas the idea that Abu Bakr was supposed to succeed doesn't. This is because the Prophet specifically designated the former.

 

[ElijahW]

I'm referring to the idea of the One. See above link.Neoplatonism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"The primeval Source of Being is the One and the Infinite, as opposed to the many and the finite. It is the source of all life, and therefore absolute causality and the only real existence."

I’m looking for actual quotes from the primary texts so I can go and see if the context is what you are suggesting or if it is something else. Plotinus is saying stuff like this which seems to be arguing against your position which is why I’m questioning your interpretation.

“[FONT=&quot]If it is nothing, only the pneuma exists, the "certain state"[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]being no more than a word; this leads imperatively to the assertion[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]that Matter alone exists, Soul and God mere words, the lowest alone[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]is.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]If on the contrary this "configuration" is really existent-[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]something distinct from the underlie or Matter, something residing[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]in Matter but itself immaterial as not constructed out of Matter, then[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]it must be a Reason-Principle, incorporeal, a separate Nature.”[/FONT]

As they say Allahu Akbar or " God is Greater."

Certainly transcends what we understand by the word "unity".

In an absolute sort of fashion? Yes. It's something that can only be alluded to and hinted at. God transcends anything we can think or say of him. Some understandings don't even point in the right general direction though such as absolute dualism and are thus of little practical use. Other understandings are providential and point us in the right direction even if they are incapable of actually "defining" God in any absolute sense.

Transcends unity in that it isn’t truthfully unified or that we don’t understand the particular of the unification?

Why does God transcend everything we can think or say of him?

What do you think is the inherent problem with a dualist finger pointing to God?

 

[Montalban]

No it's not older. The specific terms developed at the same time and in opposition to one another. That is when the issue of succession was brought into debate at the death of the Prophet. The idea that Imam Ali (as) was supposed to succeed the Prophet as leader was known well before this however so the reality of Shi'ism goes back to the time of the Qur'an whereas the idea that Abu Bakr was supposed to succeed doesn't. This is because the Prophet specifically designated the former.

What's the oldest form of Islam then?

 

[steve_bakr]

What's the oldest form of Islam then?

I would think the oldest form of Islam--according to the Muslim--originated with Abraham.

 

[Drunk On Love]

What's the oldest form of Islam then?[/quote


It's kind of like The word "Orthodox" which was first used as a name for the church in the 4th century. The reality that the term was being applied to preexisted it's first use. It's the same thing with Shi'ism. The original true faith was eventually labeled as "shi'ite" to distinguish it from later distortion of the teachings made by communities that also called themselves Muslim.

"(from Greek orthodoxos, "of the right opinion"), true doctrine and its adherents as opposed to heterodox or heretical doctrines and their adherents. The word was first used in early 4th-century Christianity by the Greek Fathers. Because almost every Christian group believes that it holds the true faith (though not necessarily exclusively), the meaning of "orthodox" in a particular instance can be correctly determined only after examination of the context in which it appears. "
Encyclopedia Britanica

 

[Montalban]

What's the oldest form of Islam then?

It's kind of like The word "Orthodox" which was first used as a name for the church in the 4th century. The reality that the term was being applied to preexisted it's first use. It's the same thing with Shi'ism. The original true faith was eventually labeled as "shi'ite" to distinguish it from later distortion of the teachings made by communities that also called themselves Muslim.

I thought you said Shi'a was not older

 

[Agnikan]

I would think the oldest form of Islam--according to the Muslim--originated with Abraham.

Actually, it originated with Adam.