The sin of MOSES

[yinonyavo]

Joh 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.​

Num 20:11-12 And Moses lifted up his hand, and with his rod he smote the rock twice: and the water came out abundantly, and the congregation drank, and their beasts also. And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.

Isa 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.​

On the very border of Canaan, Moses, the servant of the Lord, committed the sin which prevented him from entering the goodly land. The rock had once been smitten, and the Lord told Moses to gather the assembly of people, and to speak unto the rock before their eyes, and it would give forth water. Moses, who had borne patiently with their murmurings so long, now became impatient, and said, "Hear now, ye rebels; must we fetch you water out of this rock?" (Num. 20:10) He then smote the rock twice, and water gushed forth.

God is no respecter of persons, and although He had highly honored Moses, yet He punished him for his sin. When Moses smote the rock the second time, he ignored the great event of which the smitten rock was a type. Christ died once for the sins of the world, (Heb. 9:28) and all who speak to Him, confessing their sins and claiming pardon, will receive the healing waters of salvation. Thus not only did Moses disobey God, but he marred the beautiful symbol which had been placed before the Israelites during all their desert wanderings. However, this error by Moses too plays into the picture, for Moses, who represents the law cannot lead us to the "promised" land....only Joshua (the Hebrew name for Jesus) can lead us to salvation. Moses was allowed to see the promised land, just as the law points us to Christ. We know that Moses did enter the eternal promised land, for he appears with the glorified Christ, but to fulfill the type, God allowed the above synerio to play out.

Heb 6:6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because {Or repentance while} to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.​

 

[muffler dragon]

I understand where you can kind of draw the conclusion that you have; however, there is one part that is kind of straining.

This particular time that Moses was supposed to bring forth water from the rock G-d told him to speak to it. Instead, he struck it twice. Thus you have disobedience. The disobedience would come from not believing that G-d can do the same thing twice through different means. I don't think this story has anything at all to do with Christ.

m.d.

 

[yinonyavo]

Just as the children of

1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

 

[muffler dragon]

I understand the verse you are quoting. I am simply saying that I think you're trying really hard to make the sin of Moses fit this equation. Moses disobedience was because he struck the rock instead of speaking to it. To make your analogy fit, you would have to come up with some way that speaking to the rock is similar to speaking to Christ. I can somewhat follow you with the first time, because the rock was struck once just as Christ died for us once. However, that gives not credence to the second time around.

I'm not really interested in debating whether either of us is correct theologically, allegorically, metaphorically or any of the other -ally's. I just wanted to let you know that I think your making a tough sell. If it edifies you to believe what you have written, then go all out. However, others (such as myself) like to evaluate your words further to see how well we can 'swallow' it.

Take care,

m.d.

 

[hola]

I understand the verse you are quoting. I am simply saying that I think you're trying really hard to make the sin of Moses fit this equation. Moses disobedience was because he struck the rock instead of speaking to it. To make your analogy fit, you would have to come up with some way that speaking to the rock is similar to speaking to Christ. I can somewhat follow you with the first time, because the rock was struck once just as Christ died for us once. However, that gives not credence to the second time around.

I'm not really interested in debating whether either of us is correct theologically, allegorically, metaphorically or any of the other -ally's. I just wanted to let you know that I think your making a tough sell. If it edifies you to believe what you have written, then go all out. However, others (such as myself) like to evaluate your words further to see how well we can 'swallow' it.

Take care,

m.d.

To M.D.

It has taken me a long time before I really began to understand these truths. I don't know everything yet either, but I definitely agree with the truth that has been posted here about the sin of Moses. M.D., it seems to me that you really have a heart/desire to know the truth, and not to compromise, or just to accept things just because somebody just says it's true. That's good! I would just encourage you to continue seeking the Lord. His word is definitely true-"ask and ye shall receive, seek and ye shall find, knock and the door shall be opened unto you". It may take time, but I'm telling you out of the joy that I've found in God's truth, it's worth the wait. God is SO good!!!!!! Keep seeking Jesus!!!!
God bless you both!!!

hola

 

[muffler dragon]

Dear Hola:

I am uncertain as to who you are in agreement with in this thread. Would you mind alerting me to your answer?

Thanks for the admonition.

m.d.

 

[calicoangel]

I honestly believe that one person can read a verse and receive something from it. ANother person can read the same verse and get something entirely different. I think these stories in the Bible are multifaceted. It all depends on what aspect of the stories and lessons the Spirit reveals to us in the place where we are at at the time.

 

[hola]

hola M.D.

I am definitely not (personally) against you or the other person. I agree with what the other person has said, concerning this interpretaion. I believe striking the rock has the implication that Christ had to be crucified over again for the people's sins. And that is simply not true. Jesus did say "ask and ye shall receive", so speaking to the rock because no more sacrifice for sins is needed seems logical to me. Jesus said "it is the Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom". Those living waters represent the eternal life Christ wants to give us. Go to Romans. "All who CALL upon the name of the Lord shall be saved". Please understand that if this is a true revelation from God, God will help you understand it. I cannot convince you otherwise. And if you think that it's not a true revelation, then that's what you will think (I am not in any way trying to be nasty). Just like Jesus said to Peter that flesh and blood did not reveal to him (Peter) that Jesus was the Christ, only the Father in heaven did (I am trying to paraphrase this as best as I can from memory). M.D., if you are really seeking the truth, you will find it. The Truth, as you may already know, IS Jesus Christ, (see John 14:6, if needed). And if you get a revelation of the truth, it's going to be a revelation of Jesus Christ....just as our friend has put forth.

God bless you M.D.!

hola

 

[pimorton]

On the very border of Canaan, Moses, the servant of the Lord, committed the sin which prevented him from entering the goodly land. The rock had once been smitten, and the Lord told Moses to gather the assembly of people, and to speak unto the rock before their eyes, and it would give forth water. Moses, who had borne patiently with their murmurings so long, now became impatient, and said, "Hear now, ye rebels; must we fetch you water out of this rock?" (Num. 20:10) He then smote the rock twice, and water gushed forth.

God is no respecter of persons, and although He had highly honored Moses, yet He punished him for his sin. When Moses smote the rock the second time, he ignored the great event of which the smitten rock was a type. Christ died once for the sins of the world, (Heb. 9:28) and all who speak to Him, confessing their sins and claiming pardon, will receive the healing waters of salvation. Thus not only did Moses disobey God, but he marred the beautiful symbol which had been placed before the Israelites during all their desert wanderings. However, this error by Moses too plays into the picture, for Moses, who represents the law cannot lead us to the "promised" land....only Joshua (the Hebrew name for Jesus) can lead us to salvation. Moses was allowed to see the promised land, just as the law points us to Christ. We know that Moses did enter the eternal promised land, for he appears with the glorified Christ, but to fulfill the type, God allowed the above synerio to play out.

Beautifully and insightfully stated. The only thing I might add is that when Moses struck the rock, rather than speaking to it as God had instructed him, he was prefiguring the legalism of the Pharisees, trying to accomplish by human means what only God could accomplish, namely righteousness. I think his angry outburst, "must we fetch you water out of this rock" indicates for that moment he had put himself equal with God, which was Lucifer's original sin.

 

[muffler dragon]

hola M.D.

I am definitely not (personally) against you or the other person. I agree with what the other person has said, concerning this interpretaion. I believe striking the rock has the implication that Christ had to be crucified over again for the people's sins. And that is simply not true. Jesus did say "ask and ye shall receive", so speaking to the rock because no more sacrifice for sins is needed seems logical to me. Jesus said "it is the Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom". Those living waters represent the eternal life Christ wants to give us. Go to Romans. "All who CALL upon the name of the Lord shall be saved". Please understand that if this is a true revelation from God, God will help you understand it. I cannot convince you otherwise. And if you think that it's not a true revelation, then that's what you will think (I am not in any way trying to be nasty). Just like Jesus said to Peter that flesh and blood did not reveal to him (Peter) that Jesus was the Christ, only the Father in heaven did (I am trying to paraphrase this as best as I can from memory). M.D., if you are really seeking the truth, you will find it. The Truth, as you may already know, IS Jesus Christ, (see John 14:6, if needed). And if you get a revelation of the truth, it's going to be a revelation of Jesus Christ....just as our friend has put forth.

God bless you M.D.!

hola

Thanks for getting back to me.

Do you find this whole discussion to be of deep importance? The gravity of your words is strong, and I'm kind of at a loss for words.

I only commented on the post in the first place to say that I thought the OP was a bit of a strain. I can't say that I find it all that massive of an interpretation.

Anyway... you needn't respond to my above questions. I just found it interesting that you come across so solemn in this discussion.

I appreciate your admonition once again. I assure you that I am fine and dandy.

m.d.

 

[Colossians]

The teaching of Moses' striking of the rock was not to indicate a type of Heb 6's re-crucifixion of Christ, as suggested in the opener.

The teaching is primarily for those in authority in the Lord, those advanced in their walk with Him; viz. "never forget, no matter how far into the Lord you are, that you were just as unworthy, just as much saved by grace, as those whom you lead and teach."

The Lord also provided this scenario with Moses to ensure he was not idolised by generations to come, the same reason He made sure the grave of Moses remained a secret.

Moses had to sin, as did David. It had to be made manifest that as meek as these guys were, they were still not worthy to stoop down and untie their Saviour's shoes.


The mentioning of the "spiritual rock which folllowed them" in Hebrews, does not provide the interpretation of the very stationery rock that Moses struck. The re-occurence of a word "rock" is insufficient link.

Emphasis and spirit of Yinyonyavo.
Despite my contradiction of the opener, Yinyonyavo has manifested the right emphasis: Christ is the Centre of all, as well as being the outside too.
And his understanding that the law is not applicable to those in Christ, is spot on.
God bless.

 

[Macca]

Just as the children of

1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

yes the rock was Christ, but the understanding is that Christ was smitten, as was the first rock, but the second time Moses was to speak to the rock. In the same way we come to the smitten Christ for salvation (water to the nation in the desert) then we are to speak in Jesus Name.
Macca.

 

[yinonyavo]

Thank you, Pimorton..........good thought. Heb chpt. four is about not believing God. The whole chapter is comparing the event of crossing over the Jordan with entering into faith in Christ (REST), which is, of course, salvation. I also found this in Ps 78, again connecting the idea of unbelief or no faith in God's provision and salvation. I agree that the sin of Moses was disobedience, but then disobedience is always because of not believing what God has said. He did not believe that he could merely speak to the rock, but turned back to the "work" of striking it. Eventually, I think all disobedience is turning to our own strength or works, rather than trusting in Christ to do it. Of course, we all do this from time to time, and haven't fallen completely away, and neither did Moses, but I think there are always several layers to the meaning of scripture, and I was just trying to look at a deeper "type" being shown. At one level the story of Sarah and Hagar is about the events and sins in their own lives, but Gal 4:24 shows us that at a deeper level, they also represented the principles of salvation. Christ states that all of scripture speaks of Him, so I try to find Him there in every part.

Psalm 78:15 He clave the rocks in the wilderness, and gave them drink as out of the great depths.16 He brought streams also out of the rock, and caused waters to run down like rivers.17 And they sinned yet more against him by provoking the most High in the wilderness.18 And they tempted God in their heart by asking meat for their lust.19 Yea, they spake against God; they said, Can God furnish a table in the wilderness? {furnish: Heb. order}20 Behold, he smote the rock, that the waters gushed out, and the streams overflowed; can he give bread also? can he provide flesh for his people? 21 Therefore the LORD heard this, and was wroth: so a fire was kindled against Jacob, and anger also came up against Israel;
22 Because they believed not in God, and trusted not in his salvation: