The Reformed

[Lizabth]

When confessional Lutherans refer to 'the reformed', do they basically mean any other church body apart from themselves, EO and Rome?

 

[LilLamb219]

I know the answer to your question is No...but what exactly it all entails, I'm not the person who can help you there.

 

[Lizabth]

Thanks, LL. I am as in the dark as you are.

It seems as though some cL's use the handle 'Reformed' to mean all sorts of church bodies, not the official 3FU-adhering bodies.

Maybe there is a difference between 'reformed' and 'Reformed' in teh confessional Lutheran's heterodox hierachy?

 

[Tangible]

My understanding is that "reformed" in Lutheran parlance refers to any theological descendant of Calvin and Arminius, either partially or as a whole. Even churches not originally Reformed, such as the Anabaptists, have adopted many Calvin-Arminian ideas.

 

[Luther073082]

My understanding is that "reformed" in Lutheran parlance refers to any theological descendant of Calvin and Arminius, either partially or as a whole. Even churches not originally Reformed, such as the Anabaptists, have adopted many Calvin-Arminian ideas.

Ahh I thought it was only the theological descendants of Calvin.

 

[Iosias]

When confessional Lutherans refer to 'the reformed', do they basically mean any other church body apart from themselves, EO and Rome?

Probably it refers to those denominations that are Calvinistic in beliefs.

 

[jonathan1971]

When confessional Lutherans refer to 'the reformed', do they basically mean any other church body apart from themselves, EO and Rome?

That's pretty much how I hear it used. The reformed are grouped together by their low view of the sacraments and their focus on pietism.

 

[Lizabth]

Thanks, folks. Helps me make a little more sense out of what I hear occasionally on KFUO and Issues etc.

I wondered if cL's considered, say, JG Machen and Joel Osteen as one and the same, more or less, on their heterodoxy scale. I guess it is easiest to lump 'em all together.

 

[Luther073082]

Thanks, folks. Helps me make a little more sense out of what I hear occasionally on KFUO and Issues etc.

I wondered if cL's considered, say, JG Machen and Joel Osteen as one and the same, more or less, on their heterodoxy scale. I guess it is easiest to lump 'em all together.

I had to Wikipedia JG Machen because I was unfamiliar with him, but I would say that I would find Joel Osteen's teachings to be far more concerning then what it sounds like Machen taught.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

That's pretty much how I hear it used. The reformed are grouped together by their low view of the sacraments and their focus on pietism.

I use the term "reformed protestants"; by which, I mean reformed-arminian. When I use this term, I mean everyone except Confessional Lutherans, Catholic and Orthodox.

Anglicans and Liberal Lutheran Synods don't quit fit; while they can be quite Calvinist in their views of salvation/predestination; and quite arminian in their personal and critical interpretation of Scripture; but they do retain a very high view of both Scripture and the Sacraments. On the whole, neither are all that pietist or legalistic.

 

[Osage Bluestem]

The Reformed are those who confess these:

Belgic Confession
Heidelburg Catechism
Canons of Dordt

Westminster Confession of Faith

 

[Lizabth]

The Reformed are those who confess these:

Belgic Confession
Heidelburg Catechism
Canons of Dordt

Westminster Confession of Faith

That was and is my understanding.

But confessional Lutherans seem to want to lump Baptists(all sorts), Pentecostals, broad evangelicals, emergents, etc. and the kitchen sink under the label(or its cousinly pejorative: 'Calvinist').

I don't know if it is simply a strain of Germanic stubbornness or true ignorance.

 

[jonathan1971]

Are Reformed Baptist reformed?

 

[Osage Bluestem]

Are Reformed Baptist reformed?

That is often debated in the reformed community.

 

[Tangible]

That was and is my understanding.

But confessional Lutherans seem to want to lump Baptists(all sorts), Pentecostals, broad evangelicals, emergents, etc. and the kitchen sink under the label(or its cousinly pejorative: 'Calvinist').

I don't know if it is simply a strain of Germanic stubbornness or true ignorance.

Word usage varies from community to community. I know the Calvinists don't like the fact that Arminians spring from the same Reformed heritage, but historical facts are facts. It is not the Lutherans who are ignorant in this case.

FWIW, I typically see "reformed" used in the broad sense and "Reformed" used in the narrow sense, i.e. Reformed=Calvinist. This is smilar to the terms "catholic" and "Catholic" or "orthodox" and "Orthodox."

A lot of this comes from those who equate "reformed" with "Protestant" - another word with varied usage and meanings. Since we Lutherans are caught in the middle of all these terms, with confusion and differing usages even amongst ourselves, it's probably best not to force a foreign sense of a certain word into the context of any given discussion within a given community.

Thus, within a Lutheran milieu, 'reformed' usually is synonymous with 'protestant', with the understanding that Lutherans are Protestants, but not protestants.

 

[doulos_tou_kuriou]

Reformed is an expression of Calvinism and best understood as those who subscribe to the Canons of Dort, where "Reformed Theology" (often summed up in TULIP) is really born in reference to the Arminian controversy. They are not simply Calvinist per se (though it is fair to call him their chief theologian), for they also are influenced by others of the Swiss reformation including Zwingli (this comes out most often in their sacramental theology) and in their relation to predestination as it contrasts Arminianism.

The term Lutherans would use more broadly for non-Catholic/Orthodox bodies would more appropriately be protestant. The problem with that term is both within and outside of Lutheranism there is debate as to whether "Protestant" includes Lutherans.

 

[jonathan1971]

That is often debated in the reformed community.

HOLY COW... so there's not even a consensus among the reformed regarding who isn't and who is reformed?