The Paul Haters

[Archivist]

That's certainly more tame than the kitchen counter.

Or a study table in the library. :o

 

[Jase]

Again, per your own description, your view of Paul's teaching is anachronistic.

Marriage is theologically the re-uniting of Adam (humanity), who was "divided" into male (Adam) and female (Eve), as sacrament.

Akoitis means consort/husband (indicating a long-term relationship in general that is not the same as friendship), arsin means male.

The Theban band was made up exclusively of long term couples.

As before, one was defined/known through their actions; the concept of person was not the same. Thus a behavior was in some sense definitive.
(And there was no general extant term for "homosexual". Paul's term which can be translated as man-bedding or man-husband is per my knowledge likely to have originated with him. As for the meaning of the Levitical laws, see Jewish midrash etc.)

Arsenokoites was made up by Paul. The common word for same-sex behavior in Greek was paiderraste. He chose not to use that. Paul's contemporaries also understood Arsenokoites to refer to prostitution and pederasty.

Around 35 A.D., the Jewish philosopher Philo (a contemporary of Paul’s) held that arsenokoites referred to shrine prostitution (Philo, The Special Laws, III, VII, 40-42)

Somewhat later appeared the apocryphal Acts of John (a 2nd-century Christian text) and the Sibylline Oracles (a third- or fourth-century Jewish text); in both the word occurs among sins related to economics, i.e., sex induced by a need for money.

And, because arsen is singular, there was a long period leading up to the Reformation in which the term was taken to refer to masturbation (i.e., involving only one male), a translation that persists in some Greek dictionaries today.

History of Arsenokoites - Bible Abuse Directed at Homosexuals

So was Philo wrong, despite the fact that he would have seen the use of that word first hand as Paul used it? Certainly his claim would be reliable than us, 2000 years later, considering that word lost its meaning around the 5th-6th Century when Latin became more common among the Greeks.

And why did Martin Luther, and indeed most of the world during the Reformation for hundreds of years universally condemn masturbation based on that verse? It was so prevalent, some greek dictionaries still list Arsenokoites as slang for masturbation.

So who do we trust. Paul and his contemporaries, or 21st Century conservative bible publishers who have an agenda and profit to make?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The word in that verse that refers to lying is shakab, which is used for forced/deceptive sex. Like when Lot's daughters got him drunk and raped him.

Deuteronomy basically confirms this view, since it prohibits the Israelites from becoming harlots and shrine prostitutes.

No, I think the law is condemning pagan prostitution. But it matters, because you claimed all those who have sex with men are gay. That's not true, as evident by prisons and inappropriate content.

Btw, what is the difference between a harlot and prostitute

Matthew 21:31 "which of the two does the will of the father?" They are saying to Him "the first." Jesus is saying to them "verily I am saying to ye, that the tribute collectors and the prostitutes/inappropriate contentai <4204> are preceding ye into the Kingdom of the God

Revelation 17:1 And came One out of the seven Messengers, of the ones having the seven bowls and he speaks with me saying to me "Hither thou! I shall be showing to thee the judgement of the great prostitute/inappropriate contenthV <4204>, the one sitting upon the many waters"

Blue Letter Bible - Search Results for KJV
"harlot"
occurs 15 times in 15 verses in the KJV

http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=prostitute&t=KJV
"prostitute"
occurs 1 time in 1 verse in the KJV

 

[Kaitlin08]

The word in that verse that refers to lying is shakab, which is used for forced/deceptive sex. Like when Lot's daughters got him drunk and raped him.

You seem to go on to equate this with temple prostitution. Are you saying temple prostitution was rape? I mean, let's not kid ourselves. The law wasn't meant to protect men from sexual slavery. It was meant to stigmatize gays. I can understand that you, personally, don't agree with the law of Moses on this point. But the meaning of the law is clear.

No, I think the law is condemning pagan prostitution. But it matters, because you claimed all those who have sex with men are gay. That's not true, as evident by prisons and inappropriate content.

I didn't claim this; I only claimed that the law must refer to gay people in particular. The distinction isn't very subtle.

 

[Thekla]

Arsenokoites was made up by Paul. The common word for same-sex behavior in Greek was paiderraste. He chose not to use that. Paul's contemporaries also understood Arsenokoites to refer to prostitution and pederasty.

Around 35 A.D., the Jewish philosopher Philo (a contemporary of Paul&#8217;s) held that arsenokoites referred to shrine prostitution (Philo, The Special Laws, III, VII, 40-42)

Somewhat later appeared the apocryphal Acts of John (a 2nd-century Christian text) and the Sibylline Oracles (a third- or fourth-century Jewish text); in both the word occurs among sins related to economics, i.e., sex induced by a need for money.

And, because arsen is singular, there was a long period leading up to the Reformation in which the term was taken to refer to masturbation (i.e., involving only one male), a translation that persists in some Greek dictionaries today.

History of Arsenokoites - Bible Abuse Directed at Homosexuals

There were several words describing "homosexual behavior"; pederasty referred most specifically to one of the two men being young (paidia/child). It was available to Paul, and he chose not to use it.

The term Paul did use is the combination of two words in the LXX OT Levitican passage; see Jewish teaching on this matter ie what was meant in Leviticus.

That Paul's passage may be used by some abusively is unfortunate, but does not change what it is that Paul wrote; as I said, it is not ours to "rank sin".

As for the foibles of translators over the centuries, or the various ways in which the term was used (sometimes as cross reference, sometimes as a "metonymic" covering a variety of situations, as for ex. prayer may mean the act or a place among many where prayer takes place ...) that is another matter.

 

[Jase]

Btw, what is the difference between a harlot and prostitute

They are both rather similar. Zanah only refers to women, and seems to refer more to street prostitutes. Where as Qadesh (male) and Qadeshah (female) are only used when discussing temple prostitutes. In the KJV, sodomite is translated from Qadesh, meaning a sodomite was a male temple prostitute.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

They are both rather similar. Zanah only refers to women, and seems to refer more to street prostitutes. Where as Qadesh (male) and Qadeshah (female) are only used when discussing temple prostitutes. In the KJV, sodomite is translated from Qadesh, meaning a sodomite was a male temple prostitute.

Ahhh thanks. Kinda like a gigolo?

YouTube - American Gigolo Opening

 

[Jase]

You seem to go on to equate this with temple prostitution. Are you saying temple prostitution was rape?

Rape may have been part of it in some cases, but no, I'm saying temple prostitution involved one man being submissive like a woman. In Hebrew culture, that was taboo due to their patriarchal views on men and women's roles in society.

I mean, let's not kid ourselves. The law wasn't meant to protect men from sexual slavery. It was meant to stigmatize gays. I can understand that you, personally, don't agree with the law of Moses on this point. But the meaning of the law is clear.

Stigmatize gays? Gays have statistically only made up about 5% of the population for all of human history. Are you seriously claiming, Moses was condemning a tiny minority of the population when he didn't even know that population existed? That's completely illogical. The entirety of the Levitical verses those statements are made in are referring to pagan worship. Hence the reference to sacrificing to Molech. It's not making a blanket condemnation on a tiny minority in every circumstance for all time.

I didn't claim this; I only claimed that the law must refer to gay people in particular. The distinction isn't very subtle.

That's like saying Jesus condemns the internet. How can the law refer to gay people, when no one knew what gay was?

 

[Jase]

Ahhh thanks. Kinda like a gigolo?

YouTube - American Gigolo Opening

They were men who were paid for sex within pagan temples. The Caananites and Egyptians worshipped fertility goddesses in temples, and they had prostitutes who only performed their services within the temple itself.

Where as Zanah, might be more akin to the female prostitutes we see on street corners. Think Julia Roberts in Pretty Woman.

 

[Blind As A Bat]

I'm not a "hater" but I could shed a bit of light.

1. Which group/sect/denomination/organization is it that believes Paul is a false teacher or a heretic?

2. Approximately when did this teaching originate? And don't say "1st century A.D." I mean when in the 20th or 21st centuries did this appear.

3. Do you believe that Paul's epistles should be removed from the New Testament?

4. Is this all a big joke, or are you actually serious?

1: Messianic's (over 50% of).
2: Not sure.
3: I personally don't, but a lot of them do.
4: They are serious.

There is one set for you. Good luck with the next denomination!

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

They were men who were paid for sex within pagan temples. The Caananites and Egyptians worshipped fertility goddesses in temples, and they had prostitutes who only performed their services within the temple itself.

Well that shouldn't be a problem now since there is no longer a Temple for them to perform their services in

Luke 19:44 and they shall be leveling Thee and the offspring of Thee in Thee. And not they shall be leaving stone upon stone in Thee stead which not thou knew the time of the visitation of Thee.

Reve 14:8 And another Messenger, second-one follows saying "She falls, She falls, Babylon the Great, the out of the wine of the fury of the fornication of her she has given to drink all the nations".

YouTube - Animals - house of the rising sun (with lyrics)

 

[Blind As A Bat]

Btw, what is the difference between a harlot and prostitute

Basically the same thing. But just so we are clear:
harlot:
Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
Prostitute:
Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

 

[Kaitlin08]

Rape may have been part of it in some cases, but no, I'm saying temple prostitution involved one man being submissive like a woman. In Hebrew culture, that was taboo due to their patriarchal views on men and women's roles in society.

Then I really don't know what's forced or deceptive about it.

Stigmatize gays? Gays have statistically only made up about 5% of the population for all of human history.

You don't seem to know what the word stigmatize means. It means "to set some mark of disgrace or infamy upon." You can stigmatize a small group or a large group. Telling me that the law condemned pagan practices is beside the point; it identifies gay people as doing a pagan thing. It brands them as outside; this is the first step toward discrimination.

That's like saying Jesus condemns the internet. How can the law refer to gay people, when no one knew what gay was?

No, it's very silly for you to use an illustration like this. The law targeted gays for being gay, not for stealing, killing, defrauding, or any other crime.

 

[Jase]

Then I really don't know what's forced or deceptive about it.

You don't seem to know what the word stigmatize means. It means "to set some mark of disgrace or infamy upon." You can stigmatize a small group or a large group. Telling me that the law condemned pagan practices is beside the point; it identifies gay people as doing a pagan thing. It brands them as outside; this is the first step toward discrimination.

No, it's very silly for you to use an illustration like this. The law targeted gays for being gay, not for stealing, killing, defrauding, or any other crime.

There was no such thing as "being gay" to the author of Leviticus Kaitlin. Do you not understand the difference between orientation and behavior?

The concept of being gay was not discovered until 1900 A.D. The author had no idea what a gay person was anymore than he knew what the internet or cars were. He only saw certain sexual practices that were taboo for the Israelites because they made men submissive and were done in pagan worship. Both were frowned upon in that culture.

It is 100% irrelevant to the 21st century understanding of "gays".

Honestly, we're just going to have to agree to disagree, because I can't discuss the problems with Paul's letters if you don't understand the concept of a person being gay.

 

[MKJ]

There was no such thing as "being gay" to the author of Leviticus Kaitlin. Do you not understand the difference between orientation and behavior?

The concept of being gay was not discovered until 1900 A.D. The author had no idea what a gay person was anymore than he knew what the internet or cars were. He only saw certain sexual practices that were taboo for the Israelites because they made men submissive and were done in pagan worship. Both were frowned upon in that culture.

It is 100% irrelevant to the 21st century understanding of "gays".

Honestly, we're just going to have to agree to disagree, because I can't discuss the problems with Paul's letters if you don't understand the concept of a person being gay.

This isn't really a good depiction. People in the first century knew how they felt, aand understood what it was to feel sexually attracted. They even knew what it meant to feel sexually attracted to a particular sort of person. They were even able to extrapolate that to other people.

They didn't have a category of "being gay" but they knew that people who had sex with people of the same sex did so because they felt they wanted to, sometimes exclusively.

The reason they did not talk about being gay is the same reason they didn't talk about being violent as if it made you into another category of human being - because they didn't think our desires, sinful or good, define the kind of human being we are.

What they thought was important was what people willed, and what they did.

The explanation you are giving about a person not realizing there were gay people, could only be true if everyone before 1900 had no experience of being human and was an idiot. They didn't think people engaged in gay sex, or non-gay sex, or gluttony, or whatever, for no reason. They knew they did it because that was what appealed to them. It is the idea of making that into an ontological category that they would find bizarre.

 

[Lysimachus]

Wow, this is the first time I have ever heard of such a sect.

Paul, the one most responsible for bringing the gospel to the gentiles, a heretic??? O.O *faints*

 

[JudgeEden]

Wow, this is the first time I have ever heard of such a sect.

Paul, the one most responsible for bringing the gospel to the gentiles, a heretic??? O.O *faints*

Seriously, and Jase's responses are super weak. In the end, having sex with the same sex is fornication, and biblically, you cant get married to the same sex. There is no way around it, quit justifying it.

I used to be a part of this homosexual group as well, but i've since stopped. With enough prayer, you can begin to stop indulging in it. Being gay is not who you are, it's sin.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Wow, this is the first time I have ever heard of such a sect.

Paul, the one most responsible for bringing the gospel to the gentiles, a heretic??? O.O *faints*

Only after his brethren, the Judeans, turned down my bro Paul on his offer of eternal life [as they did with Jesus]

Acts 13:46 Being bold yet Paul and Barnabas said "to ye it was necessary first to be spoken the Word of the God. Since ye are thrusting away it and not worthy judging yeselves of the age-abiding life, behold! we are turning into the Nations".

 

[wayseer]

Wow, this is the first time I have ever heard of such a sect.

Paul, the one most responsible for bringing the gospel to the gentiles, a heretic??? O.O *faints*

When you get up off the floor you might read something of early church history. Paul was almost thrown out as a heretic as he was thought too gnostic - as was John's Gospel. They were tense days back then.

 

[Rdr Iakovos]

Paul was a Father, a philosopher and a teacher. His writings have been misused to support or negate soteriological positions. as proof texts without tethering his words to the whole NT, especially the Gospels.

BTW: "born fhis way" refers to the common plight of humankind, Romans 7, our sin-weakened condition. This is not the place to settle the issue of 'sexual orientation,' whatever that means or entails.