The Pasion on 20th Nissan...?

[Goinheix]

The Pasion 20th Nissan…?

That is the way a debate has to be performed. If you believe that the above statement is correct, this is the thread to present your “defense”. If you believe it is wrong, this is the thread to present your “refute”. If you believe the true is some other, search for the correct thread where to present your position.

All debates must be performed in perfect order. Christians are call to behave with order as God loves order. Confusion is not part of God and is not a Christian behavior.

Refuting one concept – in these thread or in any circumstance in life – by saying that the true is some other concept, does not conduct to nowhere. It is necessary to demonstrate that the first concept it is wrong in itself. In a parallel discussion can be presented the next concept, defended and refuted itself. No mixing. No confusion.

 

[Goinheix]

Nissan 20th as the crucifixion date is so far only my proposal, very controversial and rejected (so far)

This theory is based actually on the obstacles of the other two proposals: 14 and 15. If Jesus was not crucified on the 14 or the 15, then He was crucified some other date. It happens that reading the Pentateuch, the Passover fest was not restricted to the first day, but last a week long, being a lamb sacrificed every day. That makes possible – just possible – for Christ being the Lamb if crucified any date of that week long Passover. The point is that the only days that are preparation days are the 14th and the 20th. If is not the 14th, then is the 20th.

The problem with the 20th is that besides being a logical and smart solution, it seems not to have any support on the Gospels. But it has. The interpretation that Jesus was crucified the very same day of his arrest is traditional but is not what the Gospels say.

The Gospels recorded that Jesus was before the Sanhedrin by sunrise; and also he was before Pilates by sunrise. That makes at least two sunrises between the arrest and the crucifixion. The Gospels also states that Jesus was before Pilates by noon, and that Jesus was crucified by 9 AM. The only explanation is that Jesus was crucified next day morning after being at Pilates. Searching for more evidence I found that Peter did denied Jesus along two days.

Not only that. Paul says that Jesus kept appearing to the disciples for 40 days. That is the exact numbers of days between the Sunday after the 20th and Pentecost.

Also there are external evidence. The judicial system of the Roman Empire makes impossible for a man being crucified with a few hours trial. The same happens with the Jew judicial system. Both denies a crucifixion the same day of the arrest.

Additionally there is some practical problem. It is hard to have Jesus at the cross by 9 AM if he has to be trialed for Anas, Caiaphas, the Sanhedrin, Pilates, Herod, and Pilates again. Not only that, but the Gospels describe the trial at the Sanhedrin as way too long. And not to forget Jesus being presented to the multitude, and all the punishment that both the Jew and the Roman applied on Jesus. It is impossible for all that to happens in about three hours.

 

[Goinheix]

Luke 22:66
And as soon as it was day, the elders of the people and the chief priests and the scribes came together, and led him into their council.

At soon it was day Jesus was led into the Sanhedrin. Why? Because in the juridical system of the Jew, it is necessary that all persons be judged at the Sanhedrin. Any trial outside the Sanhedrin will have not validity. Not only that, it was necessary to have the trial on day light. That is way Jesus was led into the Sanhedrin, and why they waited until was day.

What happened at the Sanhedrin? It took place a very long trial. Matthew 26:59-68 describes that long, very long trial at the Sanhedrin. Matthew say: “sough false witnesses”, “but found none”, “many false witnesses came”, “found them non”, “at the last came two false witnesses”. In plain English, the priests were looking for any false witness but couldn’t get one good enough; and keep on looking for, but still couldn´t get what they needed. That is not a 15 minutes process but a several hours trial. (Keep on mind that ancient people did not talk in short sentences by in long speeches). Then “at the last” they found one witnes kind of good enough. They were two actually, but they entered in contradictions. And we can visualize both witnesses arguing to each other, competing to see who save the day of the priests.

The trial at the Sanhedrin was long, quite long, but after the trial, comes the beating to Jesus and the mocking to Him (67-68). And don´t tell me that it took 5 minutes.

Ones the long trial was finished and the priest discharge all theirs fury on Jesus face; it was decided to take him to Pilates. At what time did the priests decides to led Jesus to Pilates? According to Matthew 27:1 it was “when the morning was come”.

How is that possible? How it is possible that Jesus was taken to the Sanhedrin at soon was day, and after a long trial Jesus is sent to Pilates when the morning was come? The answer is simple. In the Jew judicial system, a person has to have a minimum of two days trial. What Matthew says is that Jesus trial started “at soon was day”; that is day one of the trial. The trial was very long, a day long trial. Next day, when the morning comes they “took counsel against Jesus” – second day of the trial – and led Him to Pilates.

What we have so far is a two days trial at the Sanhedrin. Whatever day Jesus was arrested, He was not crucified the same morning.

 

[Goinheix]

Jesus is led before Pilates. The trial performed by Pilates has to accomplish several judicial requisites as the Roman Empire in trying to send civilization to the known world. How difficult is for a Governor to avoid the roman judicial system, we can see it in the case of Paul in Acts. Pilates tried out many moves like sending Jesus to Herod and also presenting Him to the multitudes. Finally he was clear to send Him to dead “saying: I am innocent of the blood of this just person” (Matt 27:24).

If Pilates accomplished to all the requisites in the roman judicial system I can´t tell. The answer is in any Law School of today´s. But it doesn´t matter really. What it matters to us is that the Pilates tried out and finally found a way to get out of the situation.

Now I shall like to check out the times. John 19:14 tell as that Jesus was by Pilates place by noon. We all know that Jesus was at the cross by 9 AM. How is that possible? No problem: Jesus was at Pilates one day by noon, and was at the cross next day by 9 AM. I don´t see any problem or contradiction.

What I see is that Jesus was judged at the Sanhedrin one day, and next day he was at trial before Pilates; and one more day later He was crucified. That makes so far, at least two days from the arrest to the cross. And in the Gospels there are more days between the arrest and the cross.

Stay tuned.

 

[Goinheix]

In the search of days between the arrest of Jesus and His crucifixion we have to refer to one more requisite of the Jew judicial system. The trial on the Sanhedrin can not be performed in a Sabbath day. Independently if Jesus was arrested on Friday, Thursday or Wednesday that day was Sabbath. Either it was a High Sabbath followed by a Saturday (if on Thu), or just a High Sabbath (if on Wed), or just a Saturday (it on Fri). In any case, the day of Jesus arrest was a Sabbath.

If Jesus was arrested on a Sabbath day (High Sabbath or Saturday) it was not possible for the priests to judge Him that same day. Necessarily they had to wait for the Sabbath condition to cease, in order to take Him to the Sanhedrin for trial. This situation is adding one or two day to the time between the arrest and the crucifixion of Jesus.

What we have here is some external evidence (the Jew judicial system) and a logic, intelligent and smart conclusion. Is there any support on the Gospels?

In order to understand what the Gospels are saying we have to be capable of distinguishing (in the Gospels) the difference between:

Alektora phonesai = The last part of the night (last 3 hours for the Greeks, and last 4 hours for the Jew) called “rooster crow” by both, Greeks and Jews
(Matt 26:34; 26:75. Mark 14:72b; Luke 22:61)

Alektor phonese = A real rooster (of flesh, bones and feathers), crowing with a sound that travels the air and we actually ear.
(Matt 26:74. Mark 14:35; 14:72a. Luck 22:34; 22:60; John 13:38; 18:27)

For practical reasons lets translate “alektora phonesai” as “twilights”; and translate “alektor phonese” as “bird sing” (of course is a rooster).

(to be continued)

 

[Goinheix]

For a confirmation that [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crowing means the last part of the night before daybreak:
Mark 13:35 “…at even, or at midnight, or at the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crowing, or in the morning”

 

[Goinheix]

For practical reasons I am translating “alektora phonesai” as “twilights”; and translating “alektor phonese” as “bird sing” (of course it is a rooster).

What the Gospels are telling us is that Jesus warned Peter and gives him a signal. Jesus told Peter “the bird shall not sing this day, before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou know me” (Luke 22:34). And “the bird will not sing till thou hast denied me thrice” (John 13:38).

If we read it carefully we understand that the signal given to Peter was the rooster not crowing. The signal was the silence. The continuous warning to Peter was the continued silence of all roosters in the city. That abnormal silence of all roosters was the silence alarm given to Peter to prevent him from failing. Think about. What is so miraculous or surprising of a rooster crowing by the daybreak? What is the porpoise of a warning if it goes off (sound) only after it is too late? The signal was the silence of all roosters, not the rooster crowing.

When peter denied Jesus for the third time a bird song (Matt 26:74; Mark 14:72a, Luke 22:60; John 18:27) and the signal, the warning was over. The abnormal silence of all roosters finished. And Peter remembered the word of Jesus concerning the two twilights (Matt 26:75; Mark 14:72b; Luke 22:61)

What we have? We have that before Peter denied three times knowing Jesus, it happens two twilights in witch the birds (roosters) of the entire city mysteriously kept absolute silence. What we have is two twilights that correspond to two days. The first twilight is on the same day Jesus was arrested. After that first twilight, Jesus was taken to Annas and Caiaphas. Then comes the second twilight and by day Jesus is taken to the Sanhedrin.

That is an extra day to add.

 

[Goinheix]

NOTE:
The end of Mark 14:68 “and the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crew” does not appear in any of the old documents and it is not include in the newest versions. It seems that some copyist did include “and the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crew” because in 14:72 read “and the second time the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crew”. Probably the copyist intentions were to include a first [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] before the second.

Actually 14:72 read “and the second [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crew”. The question is where we read of the first [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]. It happens that in Greek, second can be either the one after the first followed by plenty, or just the second of two. In that sense, second means the last. For example: life span is delimited by two events; the first is birth and the second is dead.

In the same way, the silence of the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] was mark by two events; the second is the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] in Mark 14:72; and the first we must suppose of a [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] quit singing when Jesus gives the warning to Peter.

This is a suppose.

 

[GrampaJeff]

?

 

[Goinheix]

Until now I have presented evidence of several days (minimum of 3) that necessarily separate the day of the arrest from the day of the crucifixion. Now I will point out some more facts that are based not on evidence as the above, but in the good understanding and common sense. I want to emphasize the difference between the above evidence and the following interpretation.

In Matthew 27:18 we read of the Pilates wife that had have bad dreams concerning Jesus trial. It can be interpreted as dreams give by God to her. But that is not what the text says. Also makes not sense since God intentions were not to save Jesus from the crucifixion.

For a moment imagine that instead of having bad dreams she was experimenting stomach pain. How do you interpret it? Is it God giving her that pain? Probably a Christian doctor will suggest that she eat something that gives that pain. What a Christian doctor will suggest as cause of those bad dreams? Probably he will suggest that she went to sleep very concern about that Jew claiming to be the son of some god; and worried with the consequences of being killed by her husband.

The possibility that Matt 27:18 is opening is that Jesus was before Pilates one day; before Herod next day; and back to Pilates one day later. That gives to the Pilates wife all the conditions to be concerned and worried. In that condition she went to sleep the night and woke up next morning with the bad dreams.

Does it sound OK or too crazy?

(I have divided post #10 in to parts)

 

[Goinheix]

Pharisees and Sadducees had different interpretation on the Fests. For example: The Pentecost can be counted (the 50 days) from the Sabbath on Nissan 15th or from the first Saturday after Passover.

Concerning Passover there are two interpretations. One says that Passover is the first day of the Unleavened Bread. Then we have that the seven days of the Unleavened bread goes from the 14th to the 20th; being High Sabbath the 15st and the 21st. The second interpretation says that the first day of the seven is the 15th, and the Unleavened Bread goes until the 21st, being High Sabbath the 15th (Passover High Sabbath) and the 22nd.

Today´s Jewish Calendar celebrates Passover from the 15th, (14th is preparation) to the 22nd. But reading the Gospels, it seems that at that time the 14th was the first day of Passover and Unleavened Bread. Moses also indicate the 20th as the last day of Unleavened Bread (being the 21st High Sabbath)

At the time of Jesus, the religious matters were governed by the Zugot (-515 to +70). These are two quotes regarding Zugots: “Many of the things they sanctioned are in conflict with biblical instructions and with biblical principles”. “Basically these scholars (Zugots) gave laws and instructions which seemed right to them in their own eyes, without any regard for instructions that are recorded in the Old Testament”.

 

[Goinheix]

The next is a chronology of Jesus trials, from the Lord´s Supper to the resurrection. It is based on a Passover/Unleavened Bread ending the 20th as established by Moses. Also in the suppose that Jesus did celebrates the Passover dinner on the 15th as described by Moses, and arrested the same day by morning. It is also based on a crucifixion on Thursday, making two consecutives Sabbaths.

Nissan 14th. Peter and John prepare the Passover.

Nissan 15th. High Sabbath and Saturday coincides. At the evening Jesus celebrates Passover, and before morning he is arrested. That is the first vigil of the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] announced to Peter. During the day Jesus is taken to Annas and Caiaphas.

Nissan 16th. Before daylight in the second vigil of the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] Peter denied Jesus for third time. By the morning Jesus is taken to the Sanhedrin. That count as the first of two days required by the Jew judicial system.

Nissan 17th. Early in the morning the Sanhedrin decides to take Jesus to Pilates. That count as second day of trial. In the morning Jesus was before Pilates.

Nissan 18th. Probably before Herod.

Nissan 19th. In the morning Jesus is before Pilates again. His wife has had some bad dreams by the night. By noon Jesus is still before Pilates. He is condemned to crucifixion.

Nissan 20th. Jesus is crucified and buried before dark.

Nissan 21st. It is Sabbath

Nissan 22nd. It is Saturday.

Nissan 23rd. Resurrection

 

[Goinheix]

I am convinced that Luck 3:1-2 is pointing to the year 28 AC as commence of Jesus public ministry. I am also convinced – by the internal evidence in the gospels – that it was a two years ministry. In conclusion I am convinced that Jesus was crucified on the year 30 AD.

According with two astronomical programs I have, in the year 30 AD, the 15th Nissan was Friday. The first thing to check is the spring equinox for that year. Then we check the first New Moon after the equinox. The first sunset after that New Moon is 1st Nissan. Having that, it is quite easy to found out the week day of any date of that year.

Problem: In the chronology above, I assumed that 15th Nissan was Saturday, but the astronomical calculations indicate a Friday.

Problem: Until the year 70 DC, the Jew calendar was determined by astronomical observation. Only after 70 DC it was created a series of 19 years that were used instead of direct observation. That system is not perfect and could explain the difference I have; but it was not the case of the year 30 AD.

Explanation: I don’t have any satisfactory explanation. It could be because the Jew Calendar was not commenced in 1st Nissan, but in 1st Tishri. In fact the Civil Calendar was commenced on 1st Tishri, the first New Moon after the autumn equinox.

That is six months apart. In six months it is possible that by alternating months of 30 and 29 days, the accumulation of small differences between the real New Moon (every month is supposed to commence on New Moon) and the first of each month do not match.

In that case, it is possible that 1st Nissan and the New Moon I did calculate had one day difference. But as I say before: I don’t have any satisfactory explanation.

 

[Goinheix]

Last month chrisrians did celebrate Passover all over the world. All christians including baptist did conmemorate the date with a special service. The most probably, all baptist pastors did preach about Jesus Christ in the cross, and Jesus Christ resurrected. And a high porcent of them did mention, or makes understand that Jesus Christ was crucified the same morning of his arrest, the day after celebrating the Lords Dinner with the disciples. Well, that demostrate that the date of his crcificcion is not a vanal thing. Other it would be not mention at all to it. Unfortunatelly, the Gospels are telling us that Jesus was not crucified the date that all pastor did preach in the Passover service. All pastors are ignoring the Gospels continue to preach christians tradidion. Not a small thing. Lets get it right.

 

[Goinheix]

(I am dividing post #10 in two parts)

I believe that Pilates and Herod were men in power, head of a province of the Roman Empire. I believe that for Pilates to send Jesus to Herod, it was necessary some protocols of communications, acceptance and preparations. I don´t visualize Pilate sending Jesus to Herod in a rush. Neither in the reverse direction; from Herod back to Pilates.

Actually Herod – who killed John – was very enthusiastic to finally meet Jesus, listen to Him, and ask Him questions. Do you think that Herod sent Him back after few minutes of interrogation? Because if Jesus was crucified three (or little more) hours after His arrest; there is not time for Herod to interrogate Jesus more than few minutes.

 

[Chris47]

God Bless you my brother and the work you are doing to seek the truth.

We are both on the same track from two different but parallel arguments. Consider that the times given in the Gospels are from a Roman clock, that is the clock we are using today so the 6th hour would be from 6:00 to 7:00 am or pm and the 3rd hour when Jesus was crucified was between 3:00pm and 4:00pm.

Now it was dark between the 6th hour and the 9th hour.

Three hours after 3:00pm the Sun would set and on a night 3 or 4 days after the full Moon the Moon would rise in the 9th hour. This would align with the night between the 19th and 20th of Nisan 27AD, the 20th being the preparation day for the 7th day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread and is in full support of your timeline.

God bless you

Chris

 

[Goinheix]

dear brother
This thread is to discuss if Jesus was crucified on Nissan 20th or not. I am trying to keep focused on the main issue, you shall open a new thread to disscus the darkness mentioned in the Gospels.

Any how, the clock system we use today is not the same as the romans. The romans used the same hours than the jew, commencing from daybreack to sunset, counting 12 hours. Romans and jew had a small different during the dark hours. The jew divided the dark period of the date into 3 vigils, while the romans did it into 4 vigils.

Romans and jew have big diferences concerning the calendar, the begining of the year, the months, and the beginning of every date. For romans, the limit between one date and the next was midnoght, that is between the 2nd and the 3rd vigil. For the jew, a date commence at sunset.

In few words, the sixth or the nineth hour had the same meaning to hebrew, greeks, and romans.

But again, if you want to continue with this disscucion please open a proper thread. You are welcome to post the name of the new thread in here if you want to.

 

[Goinheix]

God Bless you my brother and the work you are doing to seek the truth.

We are both on the same track from two different but parallel arguments.

No. We are not on the same track. You are following a trak of human flesh full of error and mistakes...probably intentional lies. You are following a track of elements of the world like a letter from pilates when the Gospels are good and enough to found the truth. You are following a track of stan when using the astrology and the natal chart of Jesus to "predict" the day of his dead.

All that evil road is contained in the link you give me:
biblical.chronology.angelfire.com
Are you Christopher James.

I have to strongly warn the brothers that I have nothing to do with your study. That my study and your are absolutely two diferent things and that the coincidence of arriven to the same date is just mere coincidence.

 

[Chris47]

The Pasion 20th Nissan…?

That is the way a debate has to be performed. If you believe that the above statement is correct, this is the thread to present your “defense”. If you believe it is wrong, this is the thread to present your “refute”. If you believe the true is some other, search for the correct thread where to present your position.

All debates must be performed in perfect order. Christians are call to behave with order as God loves order. Confusion is not part of God and is not a Christian behavior.

Refuting one concept – in these thread or in any circumstance in life – by saying that the true is some other concept, does not conduct to nowhere. It is necessary to demonstrate that the first concept it is wrong in itself. In a parallel discussion can be presented the next concept, defended and refuted itself. No mixing. No confusion.

Please remember this when you jump in and hijack another members thread

 

[Chris47]

The Pasion 20th Nissan…?

That is the way a debate has to be performed. If you believe that the above statement is correct, this is the thread to present your “defense”. If you believe it is wrong, this is the thread to present your “refute”. If you believe the true is some other, search for the correct thread where to present your position.

All debates must be performed in perfect order. Christians are call to behave with order as God loves order. Confusion is not part of God and is not a Christian behavior.

Refuting one concept – in these thread or in any circumstance in life – by saying that the true is some other concept, does not conduct to nowhere. It is necessary to demonstrate that the first concept it is wrong in itself. In a parallel discussion can be presented the next concept, defended and refuted itself. No mixing. No confusion.

Remember this when you say another members info is garbage. You broke your own rules.